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Yep.

So, to make it clear: Yes, I am currently a patent attorney. I write patents, and I litigate them (usually for the defense). Nothing I say should be taken as legal advice, of course - I'm just speculating like everyone else, but hopefully with a little more understanding of the rules of the game.

(I'm also a CPU designer, so don't debate CPU specs with me, either :)
Kudos my friend.

@cmaier


I'm not sure if this is right, but isn't there two kinds of patents? (Not literally, but figuratively) For example, I could get a patent for inventing the tire and then you could then get a patent for putting treads on the tire for better traction.

In this case, I'm assuming that you would need to get a license from me in order to produce your tires.

I ask this because Apple is holding onto a lot of patents but is not licensing them. At what point in time do companies have to open up their patents to licensing (like Nokia with their GSM patents)?

The only possible argument for Apple's suit holding back innovation is if it does not allow for people to improve upon Apple's patents and therefore holds back the evolution of a platform. Is this an actual concern?
Thanks for asking this. :)

The "tread" patent is sometimes called an "improvement patent," but there is no legal difference between an improvement patent and any other patent. In fact, the first patent ever issued in the U.S. was an improvement patent (a better way to make potash).

As for the second point, yes. If I patent treads on tires, I cannot actually practice my own invention without getting a license to the underlying tire patent from you.
And thank you sir for your answer. :D It has actually answered a question regarding something I'm thinking of doing.
 
Best Forum Spot I've Found

@cmaier - Thanks for answering

So far, the forum threads on macrumors have been the best I've found for good info and I've searched through a lot of forums.

Is there a precedent to this case where a technology company is indirectly suing an 'open-source' software (I use that term loosely in reference to Android)? Windows threatened but I don't believe they ever did. Almost all the OSS I've ever used always struck me as being 90% ripped from a commercial software.

Here's another thing. I remember in an interview that Steve Jobs said that Apple needed to sell 10 million iPhones to break even on the investment. If we conservatively guess that Apple profits about $100 net for every iPhone sold, that's about a $1 billion invested in R&D that took 5 years to materialize.

http://www.wired.com/gadgets/wireless/magazine/16-02/ff_iphone

The first Android phone came out in OCT 2008. At that time, the interface was built to mimic Windows Mobile. A year and a half later, Android 2.1 is released, looking very much like the iPhone.

I don't know how much Google spent to develop Android, but the biggest difference it the amount of time it took for Android to catch up.

I think that's the biggest reason why patents are essential. If it takes you 5 years to make something ground breaking and 1.5 years for your competitor to mimic it, it's literally impossible to continue to 'out-innovate' them.
 
If we conservatively guess that Apple profits about $100 net for every iPhone sold, that's about a $1 billion invested in R&D that took 5 years to materialize.

The "five years" started when they first thought of the idea.

From several histories, we're told that the actual mobile OSX port and device development didn't even start until January 2006, exactly _one year_ before it was shown off.

I figured up and posted back then that they had around $120 million invested in the first model up until Jan 2007. (Wired Magazine, in that link you gave, estimated $150 million total 'til Jun 2007. So we're very close.)

In any case, at around $350 profit per unit, they easily got their investment back the very first week of sales.

Apple's no fool when it comes to making a profit.
 
So basically Apple sues the hell out of the entire PC industry to gain a 20-year monopoly on touch-screens, pinch-to-zoom and everything else. Remind me again how Apple is so wonderful?
 
So basically Apple sues the hell out of the entire PC industry to gain a 20-year monopoly on touch-screens, pinch-to-zoom and everything else. Remind me again how Apple is so wonderful?

They haven't patented touch screens, pinch-to-zoom, and everything else, so remind me again what the problem is?

A million ways to do an unlock screen, and everyone has to do it apple's way? A million ways to handle interprocess communications, and everyone has to do it apple's way?

Maybe Apple should fire their R&D team and just wait for everyone else to patent stuff and copy them.
 
No, it's not for either of those purposes. It is to encourage investment in R&D. Why should Pfizer spend billions of dollars trying to find the cure for some disease if as soon as they put in on the market everyone else is allowed to copy them? Why should Apple take the risk of developing iPhone and putting it on the market - the risk of looking ridiculous and failing like many of the pundits said they would - if there was no upside reward because everyone can wait and see if it's successful and then copy it?

why do u continue to try to explain the obvious to people that are either idiots or just biased?
the result is the same
they wont understand it or accept it
 
While not said by me, I think this comment sums it up perfectly:

---

da cappin
commented on Mar 4, 2010 11:17:51 PM
"Apple changed the game in the mobile phone and smart phone industry."

Apple did no such thing. Apple instead copied liberally from other smart phone makers and then marketed the **** out of their phone.

"I hear a lot of haters here."

You bet. Steve Jobs "has been shameless about stealing great ideas" (his own words). Now he is trying to use the patent system to force other people to buy his limited, overpriced copycat products. That is not acceptable. And it's not the first time either: they tried the same with Macintosh. It took years and tons of money and time to defeat them.

Apple is evil. The sooner the industry is rid of them the better.

Yes, and proud of it. Apple's behavior is unacceptable and their patents are b.s. And it's not the first time that Apple has taken other people's technologies and attempted to monopolize the market with them. Last time, they were defeated, but it took years in court and lots of money. Let's hope it will go quicker this time.

http://www.informationweek.com/news...html?articleID=223101486&cid=RSSfeed_IWK_News
 
When you look at the comments outside of the fanboy vacuum here, you get a real sense of the court of public opinion on sue-happy Apple.

Another good comment (again, not by me, but sums up the sentiment):

---

LinuxGuyFromRI says:
Thu Mar 04 10:00:08 PST 2010

"but protecting Apple's incentive to innovate"

Baloney. Patents have never been shown to encourage innovation. They allow the holder(s) to sit back and collect licensing fees for the term (currently 20 years) of their patent. Only after their patents have expired are they encouraged to innovate to continue their patent licensing revenue. That whole cycle slows innovation, rather than increasing it.

But that is not what Apple is after or else they would of just licensed their technology. Instead they are being anti-competitive by using their patent portfolio to prevent others from competing in the smart-phone market.

By allowing Apple to pursue this claim, the government risks creating a monopoly in which Apple controls what features you can have in a smart-phone and what cellular providers you can use that phone on (currently AT&T).

Imagine being stuck with an iPhone for 20 years that maybe gets incremental upgrades, for which Apple could charge whatever they want for.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/190799/apples_lawsuit_against_htc_bad_for_consumers.html
 
When you look at the comments outside of the fanboy vacuum here, you get a real sense of the court of public opinion on sue-happy Apple.

Another good comment (again, not by me, but sums up the sentiment):

---

LinuxGuyFromRI says:
Thu Mar 04 10:00:08 PST 2010

"but protecting Apple's incentive to innovate"

Baloney. Patents have never been shown to encourage innovation. They allow the holder(s) to sit back and collect licensing fees for the term (currently 20 years) of their patent. Only after their patents have expired are they encouraged to innovate to continue their patent licensing revenue. That whole cycle slows innovation, rather than increasing it.

But that is not what Apple is after or else they would of just licensed their technology. Instead they are being anti-competitive by using their patent portfolio to prevent others from competing in the smart-phone market.

By allowing Apple to pursue this claim, the government risks creating a monopoly in which Apple controls what features you can have in a smart-phone and what cellular providers you can use that phone on (currently AT&T).

Imagine being stuck with an iPhone for 20 years that maybe gets incremental upgrades, for which Apple could charge whatever they want for.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/190799/apples_lawsuit_against_htc_bad_for_consumers.html

again
A million ways to do an unlock screen, and everyone has to do it apple's way? A million ways to handle interprocess communications, and everyone has to do it apple's way?

Maybe Apple should fire their R&D team and just wait for everyone else to patent stuff and copy them.

apple is not in any way preventing competition or tech research,
actually if fosters that since other companies have to come up with something different and better
so what is the problem again?

oh right u just hate apple
bla bla bla
 
patents

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this but how did Apple manage to patent the Observer pattern!?! Patent #6,424,354: Object-Oriented Event Notification System With Listener Registration Of Both Interests And Methods
:confused:
 
"We have always been shameless about stealing great ideas."
- Steve Jobs

From a comment from leoc at lwn.net:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW0DUg63lqU

Gotta love the one-way street behind the evil Apple. :rolleyes:

How power and money has made Steve Jobs a despicable businessman.

Exactly where in that video does he specifically condone infringing intellectual property that has been patented? Taking good ideas is one thing and perfectly fine as long as you do it in a unique way. That is not what is going on here though.
 
Apple's patent portfolio is very, very deep.

Apple hasn't ranked in the top 50 for patents in the last
ten years. (http://www.ificlaims.com/press_releases.html)

Latest ranking (note the number of computer,software,phone-makers on the list):

Code:
Rank Company Name 2009 Patents 
1  INTERNATIONAL BUSINESS MACHINES CORP 4914  
2  SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO LTD KR 3611  
3  MICROSOFT CORP 2906  
4  CANON K K JP 2206  
5  PANASONIC CORP JP (1) 1829  
6  TOSHIBA CORP JP 1696  
7  SONY CORP JP 1680  
8  INTEL CORP 1537  
9  SEIKO EPSON CORP JP 1330  
10 HEWLETT-PACKARD DEVELOPMENT CO L P (2) 1273  
11 FUJITSU LTD JP 1220  
12 LG ELECTRONICS INC KR 1065  
13 HITACHI LTD JP 1058  
14 HON HAI PRECISION INDUSTRY CO LTD TW   995  
15 RICOH CO LTD JP   988  
16 GENERAL ELECTRIC CO   979  
17 MICRON TECHNOLOGY INC   966  
18 CISCO TECHNOLOGY INC   913  
19 FUJIFILM CORP JP   880  
20 HONDA MOTOR CO LTD JP   774  
21 HDENSO CORP JP   745  
22 SIEMENS AG DE   716  
23 BROADCOM CORP   714  
24 SHARP K K JP   657  
25 HONEYWELL INTERNATIONAL INC   655  
26 TEXAS INSTRUMENTS INC   652  
27 NOKIA AB OY FI   648  
28 XEROX CORP   624  
29 INFINEON TECHNOLOGIES AG DE   605  
30 LG DISPLAY CO LTD KR (3)   597  
31 HYNIX SEMICONDUCTOR INC KR   587  
32 SUN MICROSYSTEMS INC   561  
33 SEMICONDUCTOR ENERGY LABORATORY CO LTD JP   545  
34 BOEING CO THE   534  
35 BROTHER KOGYO K K JP   532  
35 MITSUBISHI DENKI K K JP   532  
35 TOYOTA JIDOSHA K K JP   532  
38 GM GLOBAL TECHNOLOGY OPERATIONS INC   531  
39 NEC CORP JP   526  
40 KONINKLIJKE PHILIPS ELECTRONICS N V NL   515  
41 SILVERBROOK RESEARCH PTY LTD AU   474  
42 BOSCH, ROBERT GMBH DE   467  
43 AT&T INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY I L P   444  
44 SANYO ELECTRIC CO LTD JP   443  
45 FUJI XEROX CO LTD JP   425  
46 SAMSUNG SDI CO LTD KR   423  
47 ALCATEL-LUCENT USA INC   413  
48 INDUSTRIAL TECHNOLOGY RESEARCH INSTITUTE TW   397  
49 NEC ELECTRONICS CORP JP   391  
50 HITACHI GLOBAL STORAGE TECHNOLOGIES NETHERLANDS B V    385

Also, note the story Survey: Microsoft Has Strongest Patent Portfolio.

Apple's total number of patents in 2007 was about the same as the
number of new patents that Microsoft was issued in 2007.
(And about half the number that Microsoft was issued in 2009)
 
Apple hasn't ranked in the top 50 for patents in the last
ten years. (http://www.ificlaims.com/press_releases.html)

For sure. Though lots of companies not in the top 50 have "deep" patent portfolios. In Apple's case, however, the quality (in terms of importance of the patents and fundamental difficulty in working around them) isn't all that deep, though this has improved quite a bit in the last 10 years. It is apparent to me that Apple, around a decade ago, decided to take patents seriously, and in the last 5 years or so it seems to have made quite a bit of progress in this area.

Of course, patents live only for around 20 years. They have a statute of limitations of 6 years. So while Apple does not have a deep patent portfolio overall, it has a decent (but by no means overwhelming) portfolio for assertion against products introduced today.

If I were steve jobs (right), I'd take some of Apple's nest egg and try to buy some fundamental patents at auction through puppets to help strengthen the portfolio.
 
I think the issue people have is with the hypocrisy. Apple doesn't want to pay for the GSM patent so Nokia sues and they are call patent trolls, etc... Apple sues HTC for competing (quite well I might add) and Apple is praised. So which is it? Either going after people infringing on your patents is bad or it's good. It can't be both.

I don't think you can compare Nokia & HTC/Android lawsuits. They're different.

Apple obviously knows it's going to have to pay Nokia since every other cell phone manufacturer already is, but Nokia is clearly playing hardball because instead of money, they probably want access to Apple touch screen patents that Apple is never in a million years going to give up. Nokia has no right to demand access to Apple patents, they're going to have to end up settling for money alone or Apple is going to drag this out until the iPhone is so entrenched that those patents don't have as much value. That's the only reason this lawsuit has been dragged out. If the iPhone had been a total flop, Nokia would have settled long ago just for the same money all the other cell manufacturers have paid.

The Apple HTC lawsuit is simply Apple protecting its patents on touch screen technology. HTC will have no valid countersuit here.
HTC/Google will either win or lose here and the ripple effect in the industry could be huge, but I assume Google knew the risks going in with ANDROID and intends to try to invalidate Apple patents. We'll see.

I'm with Apple on this one. Ultimately Apple will pay Nokia, but the HTC suit could drag out for a long time because the stakes are so high.
 
Apple hasn't ranked in the top 50 for patents in the last
ten years.

Microsoft Has Strongest Patent Portfolio.

Apple has made more bang for the buck than most of those companies with its patents, including & especially Microsoft.

IBM and Microsoft are both notorious for patenting ideas that never come to fruition or make a dime.
Even Microsoft's touch screen patents have yet to make them a dime! LOL
 
"We have always been shameless about stealing great ideas."
- Steve Jobs

From a comment from leoc at lwn.net:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW0DUg63lqU

Gotta love the one-way street behind the evil Apple. :rolleyes:

How power and money has made Steve Jobs a despicable businessman.

Of course stealing great ideas and stealing patented great ideas are 2 completely different things from a legal sense.
We already know Steve Jobs is hardly the most moral person in the world.
That's well documented!
LOL
 
"We have always been shameless about stealing great ideas."
- Steve Jobs

From a comment from leoc at lwn.net:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW0DUg63lqU

Gotta love the one-way street behind the evil Apple. :rolleyes:

How power and money has made Steve Jobs a despicable businessman.



Apple is Evil?


Check this out.

Google Still Censoring, Less Likely to Leave China


this is one of the comments from the article

Their whole "Do No Evil." is the funniest line of all. When it comes to making a few cents, they will do plenty evil, and we are witnessing it now.


https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/874581/



Who's evil now?
 
Apple protecting their business = wise business decision


Google bowing down to chinese censorship for 4 years = EVIL
 
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