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They say the following:

Page 9 - "Nokia has ... breached licensing commitments it made to license on F/RAND terms all patents that it claimed were necessary for a party to practice standards. Nokia has also violated those licensing commitments by demanding unjustifiable royalties and reciprocal licenses to Apple's patents..."

Page 21 - "Nokia's breach of those commitments by demanding that Apple pay non-F/RAND terms for Nokia's claimed standards-essential patents..."

Page 22 - "Nokia departed from ... its own prior ackowledgements of the meaning of F/RAND, and demanded unfair, unreasonable, and discrimanatory licensing terms from Apple. In particular, Nokia insisted on both exorbitant royalties and "grantbacks" of licenses to Apple's patented technology..."

And, of course, there's the bit on page 41 about tripling the monetary demand.

So, Apple isn't saying "they charged us more than everyone else" (monetarily, at least). However, it's fair to assume that nokia's initial offer wasn't 1/3 what they charge everyone else, meaning that when they tripled their demand it probably was asking for more than they ask from others.

I don't think it is fair to assume that at all. It's your opinion and I accept you've perhaps got a greater insight into these matters than most of us, but it's still an opinion.

The problem with these claims and counterclaims is that they are open to interpretation by us in the peanut gallery without actually knowing the facts & figures behind the terms being used.

The gist of it, as I see it, comes down to Apple saying Nokia's FRAND terms are unjustifiable and Nokia saying they are and if you (Apple) don't think they are, we'll ask the courts.

As I've said before, Nokia want a figure Z for their patents and Apple seemingly disagrees with Z no matter how Z is derived, be it Patents X + Money Y, or as they also seemed to have tried, 3Y = Z.

But still at the root of this, at no point have Apple said that other manufacturers are paying a smaller Z, they just disagree that Z is fair.

Back before Apple countered, analysts were suggesting that Z was calculated as a percentage of the device's price in which the patents were used. 1 or 2% maybe. I can see some merit in Apple's complaint if it's based on a percentage of a very expensive smartphone rather than it being capped at a maximum figure.

So, there's an argument for either side but trotting out 'Nokia are asking X times anyone else' seems a baseless speculation.

Back to HTC v Apple though and I think it's a different kettle of fish. Nokia's GSM patents are part of a standard and intended to be licensed. Apple's patents are software/UI patents and it's such a pity that companies are resorting to these kinds of disputes rather than licensing or just giving ideas freely.

HTC's hardware is always clunky and cheap. Android is nowhere near as polished as the iPhone. Apple had nothing to fear from them using a slide to lock UI element or scaling a CPU's power down or OO Notifications. They could have competed on merit, marketing and superior hardware. It saddens me that they're choosing not to. I'd hope the next iPhone hardware and OS 4.0 are a step back up onto the top step but the iPhone currently is looking a bit tired. If Apple don't improve it and they instead rely on litigating against their competition it'll be a sad turn of events for Apple and the phone industry as a whole.

I'm wondering if these patents are enforceable in Europe. Competitors such as Nokia could quite happily ship some pretty nifty phones outside the USA with US Apple patents being used.

As an analogy, Specialized Bicycles have a stupid patent on a pivot in a bike's rear suspension system but only in the USA - the so-called Horst Pivot patent. Essentially it's just a Macpherson Strut used in cars for decades but the US patent office gave them it. In a bike the Horst pivot location means the suspension system is fully active, even when braking and there's neutral pedal feedback. It's just the right way to do suspension, easily.

Because of the patent, other US companies have ***** footed around with less effective suspension systems or engineered workarounds like complex damping to stop pedal feedback.

In Europe, it doesn't apply, so many, mostly smaller, manufacturers took the design and produced much better bikes than Specialized. They're not allowed to sell them in the USA though.

Specialized will licence the patent but nobody likes paying them or having a Specialized logo on their bike. Everyone wants to make it look like their suspension system was designed by them and has magical qualities that you'd only get from them.

Apple won't licence their patents so my analogy breaks down a bit there but if you're following, the stupid patents have meant that innovation stagnated in the USA - the alternative designs are rarely better performers - but in Europe we've taken the idea and produced much better products than the original company that got the US patent.

I can see the same happening in the mobile phone space where the industry is less dependent on US software companies unless the US patent office is reformed.
 
Can you name a single touch screen device where you unlocked the device by performing a gesture on the screen prior to iPhone?

Even one?

Just one please?

No?

Didn't think so.

I wouldn't be so sure. On UIQ phones the default was usually just opening the flip but if you removed the flip and used them as purely touch screen phones, there were applications for the 'flip closed screen' that you unlocked with a gesture instead of using the jogwheel/missing flip. They usually did other stuff as well like act as an overview of todo, calendar etc. Handy Day comes to mind. They date back to at least 2003 and UIQ 2.x.

Apple's patent is very specific on their implementation though so it's possible the gestures other people use might not infringe.

I notice on one of our kid's LG phone to unlock the touch screen you just hold your finger on the unlock button for long enough. I'd guess HTC could just do that instead in the USA and maybe the Apple way elsewhere.
 
HTC/Google make better smartphones than Apple so I'm not surprised to see this :rolleyes:

I'd say that they know how to copy better than anyone. I wouldn't say their the best. If you look inside the details, their phones have serious disadvantages to the iPhone but the iPhone also lacks things I'd like to see. If OS 4.0 is a huge upgrade then Apple is ahead again.

I haven't yet seen any functionality in Android's openness that I can't get through the App Store with the exception of free tethering. That can always be had with a jailbreak.

Apple hasn't ranked in the top 50 for patents in the last ten years.

That really doesn't have any bearing since most of those companies mentioned are involved in more areas of tech than Apple. It comes down to the validity of Apple's patents in their suit. Jobs said himself that they have over 200 patents alone on the iPhone.

I'm not a fan of this suit but I can see how Apple feels since every phone that has come out since the iPhone has essentially been a clone. The only other interesting phone has been the Pre. The idea behind Android for Google was to clone whatever the most popular device there is out there and attach Google services to it. That's why early models of the Google phones looked like Windows Mobile.

I could give a damn about this suit because it is extremely rare that any patent gets in the way of the progression of technology. By the time there is a decision on this suit, Google and Microsoft will have found workarounds.
 
Originally Posted by AidenShaw
Apple hasn't ranked in the top 50 for patents in the last ten years.

That really doesn't have any bearing since most of those companies mentioned are involved in more areas of tech than Apple. It comes down to the validity of Apple's patents in their suit. Jobs said himself that they have over 200 patents alone on the iPhone.

...

I could give a damn about this suit because it is extremely rare that any patent gets in the way of the progression of technology. By the time there is a decision on this suit, Google and Microsoft will have found workarounds.

There could easily be a bearing - since Microsoft has been churning
out thousands of new patents per year, and has been making
touch screen telephone OSs (and other touch OS bits) for years
before Apple started the Iphone project.

I'm sure that the patent lawyers at Microsoft have put together
a long list of MS patents that they feel that the Iphone/touch/Ipad
infringe.

If Apple sues Microsoft and/or Microsoft's Windows Phone partners,
the counter-suit could be very interesting. MS might be able to
have crucial Apple patents invalidated, or at the least force a
broad cross-licensing agreement.
 
microsoft has no issued Touch-related patents that iPhone even comes close to infringing. They may have applications that are relevant, however. When i have some free time I'll check what they've been filing. Since apple has the fingerworks IP, they're probably in decent shape - certainly apple-controlled multitouch patents are far more fundamantal than MS's.

Of course, apple may be infringing many of MS's non-touch-related patents.

There could easily be a bearing - since Microsoft has been churning
out thousands of new patents per year, and has been making
touch screen telephone OSs (and other touch OS bits) for years
before Apple started the Iphone project.

I'm sure that the patent lawyers at Microsoft have put together
a long list of MS patents that they feel that the Iphone/touch/Ipad
infringe.

If Apple sues Microsoft and/or Microsoft's Windows Phone partners,
the counter-suit could be very interesting. MS might be able to
have crucial Apple patents invalidated, or at the least force a
broad cross-licensing agreement.
 
There could easily be a bearing - since Microsoft has been churning
out thousands of new patents per year, and has been making
touch screen telephone OSs (and other touch OS bits) for years
before Apple started the Iphone project.

I'm sure that the patent lawyers at Microsoft have put together
a long list of MS patents that they feel that the Iphone/touch/Ipad
infringe.

If Apple sues Microsoft and/or Microsoft's Windows Phone partners,
the counter-suit could be very interesting. MS might be able to
have crucial Apple patents invalidated, or at the least force a
broad cross-licensing agreement.

For MS maybe but not in terms of this suit. As it is, there has to be something else going on with hardware and software in the original iPhone because the earlier implementations by other companies, including Microsoft, just wasn't there. It was pedestrian at best. If they were patenting similar technologies to Apple, it wouldn't have taken them 4 years to release the equivalent to WM7. Even MS said they were caught off guard by the introduction of the original iPhone.

I'm sure that many of these companies (such as MS & Nokia) have patents that Apple needs now or in the future which would necessitate a cross-licensing agreement. The problem, as I understand it for Google, is that they have few patents, which may put HTC at a disadvantage. It may not even matter considering Android is open source which puts the onus on the hardware manufacturer.
 
For MS maybe but not in terms of this suit. As it is, there has to be something else going on with hardware and software in the original iPhone because the earlier implementations by other companies, including Microsoft, just wasn't there. It was pedestrian at best. If they were patenting similar technologies to Apple, it wouldn't have taken them 4 years to release the equivalent to WM7. Even MS said they were caught off guard by the introduction of the original iPhone.

I'm sure that many of these companies (such as MS & Nokia) have patents that Apple needs now or in the future which would necessitate a cross-licensing agreement. The problem, as I understand it for Google, is that they have few patents, which may put HTC at a disadvantage. It may not even matter considering Android is open source which puts the onus on the hardware manufacturer.

Android being open source doesn't relieve google for any liability for direct or contributory patent infringement, though it does raise interesting questions as to the amount of damages (in a hypothetical negotiation, how much would google be willing to pay to license features that it intends to give away for free?)
 
If (MS) were patenting similar technologies to Apple, it wouldn't have taken them 4 years to release the equivalent to WM7. Even MS said they were caught off guard by the introduction of the original iPhone.

What caught them off guard was the timing.

Microsoft and others have R&D departments who've worked on future hard and software. Back in 2001, Microsoft gave us an NDA showing of their secret future WinMo/WinCE UI concepts. It was quite incredible, however they had to acknowledge that a device which could do what they demonstrated would cost a mint at the time.

Furthermore, phone makers had to make sure their OS would still work on lower powered, lesser resourced, handsets. That held back their consumer implementation of innovations until even the lowest handset could keep up.

So the biggest difference is this: Apple pulled out of the PDA/phone market and waited until the hardware was ready and cheap. By doing so, they didn't have to support any legacy gear (although now they're starting to run up against that wall with the original iPhone models). Smart move to wait? Yes. Brave? No.

... The problem, as I understand it for Google, is that they have few patents, which may put HTC at a disadvantage. It may not even matter considering Android is open source which puts the onus on the hardware manufacturer.

HTC only has a few utility patents. The biggest pending one that Apple might want is HTC's accurate capacitive stylus.

As a side note, Apple didn't seem to target any MS Windows Mobile code. (Just HTC specific things like rubber-bandng.) Microsoft announced four years ago that they would help defend any client under attack for MS software. They also have cross-licensing agreements with Apple that might already cover much of this.
 
Android being open source doesn't relieve google for any liability for direct or contributory patent infringement, though it does raise interesting questions as to the amount of damages (in a hypothetical negotiation, how much would google be willing to pay to license features that it intends to give away for free?)

I'm not too knowledgeable when it comes to patent infringement so you could be right. Google, though, will never get any licensing agreement from Apple. Jobs has been on record as saying that Apple doesn't license their patents. A good example of this is the MagSafe adapter. This is something that could be beneficial to Mac users but Apple has refused to license it to any third party company.

Google doesn't have anything that Apple wants to make a deal. Google needs Apple more than vice versa to use their services such as search. The only way a deal could possibly be made is through the judicial system which would anger Apple, who is a necessary partner in their battle against MS.
 
I don't think it is fair to assume that at all. It's your opinion and I accept you've perhaps got a greater insight into these matters than most of us, but it's still an opinion.

The problem with these claims and counterclaims is that they are open to interpretation by us in the peanut gallery without actually knowing the facts & figures behind the terms being used.

The gist of it, as I see it, comes down to Apple saying Nokia's FRAND terms are unjustifiable and Nokia saying they are and if you (Apple) don't think they are, we'll ask the courts.

As I've said before, Nokia want a figure Z for their patents and Apple seemingly disagrees with Z no matter how Z is derived, be it Patents X + Money Y, or as they also seemed to have tried, 3Y = Z.

But still at the root of this, at no point have Apple said that other manufacturers are paying a smaller Z, they just disagree that Z is fair.

Back before Apple countered, analysts were suggesting that Z was calculated as a percentage of the device's price in which the patents were used. 1 or 2% maybe. I can see some merit in Apple's complaint if it's based on a percentage of a very expensive smartphone rather than it being capped at a maximum figure.

So, there's an argument for either side but trotting out 'Nokia are asking X times anyone else' seems a baseless speculation.

Back to HTC v Apple though and I think it's a different kettle of fish. Nokia's GSM patents are part of a standard and intended to be licensed. Apple's patents are software/UI patents and it's such a pity that companies are resorting to these kinds of disputes rather than licensing or just giving ideas freely.

HTC's hardware is always clunky and cheap. Android is nowhere near as polished as the iPhone. Apple had nothing to fear from them using a slide to lock UI element or scaling a CPU's power down or OO Notifications. They could have competed on merit, marketing and superior hardware. It saddens me that they're choosing not to. I'd hope the next iPhone hardware and OS 4.0 are a step back up onto the top step but the iPhone currently is looking a bit tired. If Apple don't improve it and they instead rely on litigating against their competition it'll be a sad turn of events for Apple and the phone industry as a whole.

I'm wondering if these patents are enforceable in Europe. Competitors such as Nokia could quite happily ship some pretty nifty phones outside the USA with US Apple patents being used.

As an analogy, Specialized Bicycles have a stupid patent on a pivot in a bike's rear suspension system but only in the USA - the so-called Horst Pivot patent. Essentially it's just a Macpherson Strut used in cars for decades but the US patent office gave them it. In a bike the Horst pivot location means the suspension system is fully active, even when braking and there's neutral pedal feedback. It's just the right way to do suspension, easily.

Because of the patent, other US companies have ***** footed around with less effective suspension systems or engineered workarounds like complex damping to stop pedal feedback.

In Europe, it doesn't apply, so many, mostly smaller, manufacturers took the design and produced much better bikes than Specialized. They're not allowed to sell them in the USA though.

Specialized will licence the patent but nobody likes paying them or having a Specialized logo on their bike. Everyone wants to make it look like their suspension system was designed by them and has magical qualities that you'd only get from them.

Apple won't licence their patents so my analogy breaks down a bit there but if you're following, the stupid patents have meant that innovation stagnated in the USA - the alternative designs are rarely better performers - but in Europe we've taken the idea and produced much better products than the original company that got the US patent.

I can see the same happening in the mobile phone space where the industry is less dependent on US software companies unless the US patent office is reformed.

I generally accept specific facts that are present in pleadings. So I believe Apple when they say the amount tripled. So all I am saying is that unless the first amount was 1/3 the amount they charge everyone else, the second amount has to be higher than the amount they charge everyone else.

Perhaps they offered less than 1/3 the price to Apple the first time, but that seems unlikely.

Apple's patents are not "software/UI patents." Go read them, particularly the claims, then come back and comment all you'd like.
 
What caught them off guard was the timing.

Microsoft and others have R&D departments who've worked on future hard and software. Back in 2001, Microsoft gave us an NDA showing of their secret future WinMo/WinCE UI concepts. It was quite incredible, however they had to acknowledge that a device which could do what they demonstrated would cost a mint at the time.

Furthermore, phone makers had to make sure their OS would still work on lower powered, lesser resourced, handsets. That held back their consumer implementation of innovations until even the lowest handset could keep up.

So the biggest difference is this: Apple pulled out of the PDA/phone market and waited until the hardware was ready and cheap. By doing so, they didn't have to support any legacy gear (although now they're starting to run up against that wall with the original iPhone models). Smart move to wait? Yes. Brave? No.

I can't say that MS did the right thing nor can I say how many of MS's patents deal with the particular subject of mobile phones. MS may have waited too long if that was the case. The market is rapidly maturing but it's not yet set in stone like the PC.

No matter when the hardware will be available there will be a point when it becomes out of date. That point will come sooner with phones. The turnaround on smartphones will be quicker because of the rapid increases in mobile tech. ARM has made leaps from the tech that was in the original iPhone. It helps Apple that they, at least for US customers, are tied to 2 year contracts which would be an appropriate time for a hardware upgrade unlike a PC which can have a lifespan twice as long.

HTC only has a few utility patents. The biggest pending one that Apple might want is HTC's accurate capacitive stylus.

As a side note, Apple didn't seem to target any MS Windows Mobile code. (Just HTC specific things like rubber-bandng.) Microsoft announced four years ago that they would help defend any client under attack for MS software. They also have cross-licensing agreements with Apple that might already cover much of this.

The patent that you mentioned of HTC may come into play with the iPad but I can easily see Apple either finding a workaround or not even using a stylus even though it was a much requested feature.

It is interesting. We'll have to see what happens after this lawsuit (if Apple wins) because they chose the largest manufacturer of not only Android phones but WM as well. They could have selected a smaller hardware manufacturer who uses the Android OS.

Contrary to popular belief, I think that Apple has a decent relationship with MS. I can easily see a cross-licensing with the two. I think they are very angry at Google and most especially the Nexus One. It was Google who stepped into Apple's turf when they had a close relationship.
 
I generally accept specific facts that are present in pleadings. So I believe Apple when they say the amount tripled. So all I am saying is that unless the first amount was 1/3 the amount they charge everyone else, the second amount has to be higher than the amount they charge everyone else.

Perhaps they offered less than 1/3 the price to Apple the first time, but that seems unlikely.

Maybe but it's still just a guess as valid as mine. Nokia asks Apple for "Patents X + Money Y = final figure Z". Apple say no to Patents X as part of deal and Nokia ask for 3Y=Z. Apple still doesn't like Z. That fits also and isn't so unlikely either.

Apple's patents are not "software/UI patents." Go read them, particularly the claims, then come back and comment all you'd like.


Most of them in HTC v Apple are or at least seem to be to me. I'm going off the list at http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/02/apple-vs-htc-a-patent-breakdown/

I'd count 16 out of 20 as being software patents, possibly 17, but I'm aware the wiggle room of describing software algorithms as devices embodying blah, blah, yakkity schamakkity to get around the rules. It puzzles me that everyone seems to know these workarounds other than the US patent office.

When does an algorithm become patentable anyway? In pure software? in microcode in an FPGA? In a particular implementation in silicon?

Why aren't they just copyright and not patents?
 
It is interesting. We'll have to see what happens after this lawsuit (if Apple wins) because they chose the largest manufacturer of not only Android phones but WM as well. They could have selected a smaller hardware manufacturer who uses the Android OS.

HTC are minnows with less than 1% of the market, maybe even less than 0.5%. They don't even register on most analysts graphs of market share and get lumped in with 'others'.

But that's not who Apple are really going up against - they're going after Google by proxy and more indirectly the rest of the mobile industry that might want to make an Android phone.
 
Nobsuch thing as a "software patent.". All those patents claim the device. For info on where the liNe is drawn, google "In re Bilski". Supreme Court will let us know soon.

Ps: don't blame the paten office. They don't make the rules. Blame congress and the courts.

Maybe but it's still just a guess as valid as mine. Nokia asks Apple for "Patents X + Money Y = final figure Z". Apple say no to Patents X as part of deal and Nokia ask for 3Y=Z. Apple still doesn't like Z. That fits also and isn't so unlikely either.




Most of them in HTC v Apple are or at least seem to be to me. I'm going off the list at http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/02/apple-vs-htc-a-patent-breakdown/

I'd count 16 out of 20 as being software patents, possibly 17, but I'm aware the wiggle room of describing software algorithms as devices embodying blah, blah, yakkity schamakkity to get around the rules. It puzzles me that everyone seems to know these workarounds other than the US patent office.

When does an algorithm become patentable anyway? In pure software? in microcode in an FPGA? In a particular implementation in silicon?

Why aren't they just copyright and not patents?
 
How is protecting one's patent thwarting competition? If inventors didn't have limited exclusive rights to their works there would less incentive to innovate. We'd all be riding horse and cooking our fresh kill deer on an open flame and sending messages out via smoke puffs.

People were inventing long before patent protections. "Patent right supports innovation" is debatable. I listened to an argument ( on BBC i believe ) where some professors were against patents rights etc.
 
People were inventing long before patent protections. "Patent right supports innovation" is debatable. I listened to an argument ( on BBC i believe ) where some professors were against patents rights etc.

Ya, very true. Innovation and patents have not always been protected they same way they are now.
 
Ya, very true. Innovation and patents have not always been protected they same way they are now.

Though they have, in the U.S., since 1793. In England, since around 1710 (though some would argue since the 1400's).

I'd say the number of inventions and the amount of innovation has been pretty high since 1710, and a lot more things have been invented in that time period than in the time period before patents.


Edit: Italy had patents in the 1400's - it was partly responsible for the boom in glassmaking in Venice. France had patents since 1555. U.S. territories granted patents back to 1646.
 
Android being open source doesn't relieve google for any liability for direct or contributory patent infringement, though it does raise interesting questions as to the amount of damages (in a hypothetical negotiation, how much would google be willing to pay to license features that it intends to give away for free?)

True, being open source doesn't relieve Google of anything, but it does make things harder for other companies. Android, like Linux itself, is largely an idea and terribly complicated to properly sue. MS never actually tried to sue Linux - it just make it harder for them to exist by claiming they had patents (which they never acted on). Going after Linux as a while is just not worth it. It's far too much of an ideal to sue on.

There is a reason that Apple isn't targeting Google - they don't want to waste their time in a project that has little to no profit to Google. It would be a waste of time.
 
Don't pay any attention to applications. Most apps don't issue as filed. Most are abandoned after too many rejections, or emerge with much narrower claims than as-filed.

Interesting. Thanks. Which brings up a question:

I found some (older) articles that said that of patents taken to court, about 60% of the cases find no infringement... and about 40% of the time the patents are actually invalidated.

Does that sound too high?

PS. The articles also said that about half of those decisions were eventually overturned in a higher court. So that would cut those percentages in half.
 
Interesting. Thanks. Which brings up a question:

I found some (older) articles that said that of patents taken to court, about 60% of the case find no infringement... and about 40% are actually invalidated.

Does that sound too high?

Hard to say. I've heard numbers in that range, and I've also seen paid research that indicates otherwise. Typically what happens is there are some claims invalidated, and some claims infringed. Not sure how they count that in various statistics. It also is quite typical for these things to be handled at summary judgment, which means they don't get to trial - some statistics are based on judicial outcome, and some are based on jury verdicts.
 
Does that sound too high?
It's hard to say for sure if you ask me. My guess is that there are alot of patents filed by companies because they are never sure what is going to take off and what isn't. I also think that determine what is valid and what is not at any given time is also quite complex. It is very possible that at the time, the filers thought that what they were patenting was indeed valid.

I would guess that companies are over protective to please their financiers and we cannot read too much into the intent of things at any given time.
 
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