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There isn't anything I'd stand in line for.

The only thing I've ever stood in line for....Paul McCartney Tickets. A bit cooler than a phone or tablet :cool:

3rd Row ;)

You could say " Hey I got another phone that's just like my old one! Look how NEW it is!!!! "
Or " I saw Paul Freaking McCartney! "

There's a difference ;)
 
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Even the voiceover when they show the tablet around the 2:20 mark is incredibly prescient:

  • "Tablets will be a whole new class of computer." (yep)
  • "They'll weigh under 2 pounds." (iPad: 1.5 lbs)
  • "They'll have a clarity of screen display comparable to ink on paper." (retina!)
  • "They'll be a part of our daily lives..." (yep)
  • "We may still use computers to create information, but we'll use the tablet to interact with information." (post PC era)
About the only thing they got wrong was the timing. They predicted such tablets would be in widespread use by around 2000.

Yeah, they were pretty damn accurate!

But a shame they didn't predict the pricing, and having played with a Nexus 7 yesterday, I sure know what is going on my Christmas list this year!! The thing is built to hammer nails in! As good as if not better then the iPad, I was very surprised.
Sorry, just can't get over how good the Nexus 7 is, and to all the doubters you should try one.
 
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The only thing I've ever stood in line for....Paul McCartney Tickets. A bit cooler than a phone or tablet :cool:

3rd Row ;)

You could say " Hey I got another phone that's just like my old one! Look how NEW it is!!!! "
Or " I saw Paul Freaking McCartney! "

There's a difference ;)
The only thing I'd probably ever stand in line for is Wimbledon tickets. Certainly not for a gadget.
 
Google want a cross-licensing deal. They always have. It would cover up their reckless and willful infingement of Apple's non-SE patents (probably in a way similar to how they treated Oracles IP - that is, "do it anyway").

What reckless and willful infringement? How they treated Oracle's IP? I think that the trial has told another tale
 
Translation: we like your innovations and want to use them for free to compete with you.

This, and thread over.

This is the most absurd lawyer speak I've ever heard. "You've done so well that instead of compete with you, we'd like to call your IP "standards" so that we can use it for free and take the money thats rightfully yours"

What a nutjob.
 
This, and thread over.

This is the most absurd lawyer speak I've ever heard. "You've done so well that instead of compete with you, we'd like to call your IP "standards" so that we can use it for free and take the money thats rightfully yours"

What a nutjob.

Since when FRAND patents are free?
 
Google want a cross-licensing deal. They always have. It would cover up their reckless and willful infingement of Apple's non-SE patents (probably in a way similar to how they treated Oracles IP - that is, "do it anyway").

You're right that Google would love a cross-licensing agreement. It's what everyone does. Everyone except of course Apple who wants to be able to license IP from others, even non-FRAND, but never itself give out licenses.

Imagine the effect on business adoption if Microsoft had refused to license Exchange ActiveSync to Apple for the iPhone.

What Google did to try and absolve itself in retrospect was it bought some SEPs, broke the contractual FRAND pledges and demanded an extortionate license that Apple could never agree to (2.25% of the RRP), in the hope that Apple would settle and open the doors to their own vaults in a cross-licensing deal.

Google didn't break any contractual FRAND pledges when they bought MMI. In fact, they stated that they would continue to honor MMI's original maximum of 2.25% for its FRAND patents.

The terms proposed to Apple were the same ones proposed to Microsoft, which the ITC found was not a realistic offer. In other words, the licensing deal Motorola proposed was a show that they didnt expect anyone to accept (and that no other company has accepted). http://www.fosspatents.com/2012/05/itc-judge-finds-motorola-was-not.html

Despite Florian's spin on a subtopic that had nothing with the judge's finding that Apple had infringed Motorola's patents, neither the ITC nor the courts can set FRAND rates. The most that courts can do is rule that a rate is totally unreasonable.

That's why courts are staying out of the rate decisions so far. All they've been doing is preventing injunction attempts based on FRAND patents.

Note that Qualcomm gets 3.4% of a phone's price for its IP. MMI's maximum of 2.25% sounds reasonable in comparison, and can be as low as zero if you cross-license with them... a dealing that has been common between every other phone maker for almost two decades.

Apple came into a known playground and wants to change the rules to their own benefit. There's nothing wrong with that, but they cannot claim that they're being treated any differently than the other players. The same goes for Google.
 
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I never have said that FRAND meant free. I know darned well what it means and I have never said that it means free.

Well then how can you state Motorola abused their FRAND patents ? Are you privy to the offers they made Apple aside from Apple's version of the story, which seems to differ from Motorola ?

Because frankly, the only way you could say Motorola abused their FRAND patents is if you either : think FRAND means Free or are an insider with information we don't have.

If it's neither... are you just taking Apple's word for it ?

----------

I find it funny that they cited "slide to unlock" as an example.

You mean that all the brains in the world cannot come up with a viable alternative to sliding a virtual bar across the screen to unlock your smartphone? :confused:

These people are just lazy, plain and simple.

It's especially funny considering that patent has been found invalide twice in 2 different jurisdiction now, and that it's questionnable whether it even belongs to Apple. ;)

It seems all the brains in the world can come up with Slide to Unlock, that's the whole issue.
 
******* Google

I'm a little surprised that anyone would think what Google is doing is in the least bit a good idea! This would open the door for any competing company to steal their idea's and the Millions of dollars spent on R&D hiding behind what basically Google is trying to do, "legalized theft"! By saying they want to pay Apple for Licensing I bull ****, if I don't want to sell my stuff, I don't have to! Especially to a competitor that has already been stealing from Apple the same way Microsoft ****ed Apple & Steve Jobs! You pay for R&D,design great products and pay for all the patents to protect yourself only to find out your ideas are so great that everyone should be able to use them! If Apple want to License, great then if I was Apple I would charge an astronomical License fee!

Can Yahoo or a new search engine force Google to use their search engine model and advertising because it's become the norm for search? Would Google be willing to do so?

Google just keeps steeling ideas to try and come up with what Apple created, as well as a complete Ecosystem that works so smooth and is such a complete system that just works bitchen!

And everyone that says its all about the big screen phones, I only hope Apple doesn't go any bigger then 4", I have my iPad for the bigger screen. My friend got one with close to 5" i think and he can't carry it in his pocket, to hard to get in & out! It's like he needs a trailer behind him to take it with him. He has already ordered another 4s and we are eagerly waiting for IPhone 5!
:cool::apple::cool::apple:
 
If they're essential and you can't come up with a better solution then pay a fair price to the owners of the solution you need to use; isn't that what capitalism is all about?
 
You are actually wrong. Apple has patents, and it is their choice to decide whether to license the patents or not. So Apple would prefer nobody using their patents and not making money from licensing rather than getting money for licensing out their patents, and that is their decision to make - if OEMs don't like that decision that is just tough, if you think that Apple's decision is bad for Apple that's your opinion, and if you're actually right, well, that's tough for Apple. However, if OEMs don't accept that decision and use patents without a license, then of course Apple needs to pay their lawyers to fight in courts.

How am I wrong exactly ? The block you quoted says nothing wrong, you debunk none of it (the Google lawyer did say what I say he did, he wants to pay licensing fees and Apple does have to fight court battles to protect its patents rather than make money from licensing them).

Is this a case of just claiming I'm wrong without that being the case at all ? Just for the kick of saying I was wrong ?

You're talking about the current situation, the Google lawyer is pushing to get that changed. And yes, Apple currently has a right to keep its toys, but all other OEMs can have them declared invalid through the courts by citing prior art and showing the obviousness of the claims of the patents.

Personally, I find Apple's position weak. They should make money from their patents instead of paying lawyers to lose them in court as they have been.

----------

Can Yahoo or a new search engine force Google to use their search engine model and advertising because it's become the norm for search? Would Google be willing to do so?

Again, Yahoo! can license PageRank from Stanford University and implement the same search algorithm Google does. Google does not own the patent to their search, it is not theirs to license out.
 
You're right that Google would love a cross-licensing agreement. It's what everyone does. Everyone except of course Apple who wants to be able to license IP from others, even non-FRAND, but never itself give out licenses.

Imagine the effect on business adoption if Microsoft had refused to license Exchange ActiveSync to Apple for the iPhone.

Microsoft didnt license ActiveSync from the good of their hearts - they chose to license ActiveSync to break RIMs dominance in enterprise communications and to sell their Exchange Server software. It's a different business model from what Apple is doing.

Microsoft didn't need to license ActiveSync. There was no government intervention to force them to tolerate use of their IP for any price. If Apple decides to change its business model in to a licensing one (rather unlikely), they could make that choice for themselves.

The government should not act like Apple's mum and force it to share its property. It owns the IP, it can decide what to do with it. Just like Microsoft had the freedom to decide independently.

Google didn't break any contractual FRAND pledges when they bought MMI. In fact, they stated that they would continue to honor MMI's original maximum of 2.25% for its FRAND patents.

Half-true. The rate was already set by Moto, who are the ones who broke the FRAND pledges. No doubt under direction of Google, as Motorola didn't have full legal standing and had to consult with Google regarding pending litigation and potential settlements (as stated in the merger agreement).

Regardless of the exact rate requested (if there was an exact rate), it is clear to anybody, including the ITC judge, that Motorola couldn't have expected Microsoft (or, by extension, Apple) to agree to those terms. Motorola doesn't have a single licensee under the terms it offered those two.

Despite Florian's spin on a subtopic that had nothing with the judge's finding that Apple had infringed Motorola's patents, neither the ITC nor the courts can set FRAND rates. The most that courts can do is rule that a rate is totally unreasonable.

That's why courts are staying out of the rate decisions so far. All they've been doing is preventing injunction attempts based on FRAND patents.

Not true. If the parties fail to reach a settlement, the court will decide on an appropriate royalty rate.

Note that Qualcomm gets 3.4% of a phone's price for its IP. MMI's maximum of 2.25% sounds reasonable in comparison, and can be as low as zero if you cross-license with them... a dealing that has been common between every other phone maker for almost two decades.

Apple came into a known playground and wants to change the rules to their own benefit. There's nothing wrong with that, but they cannot claim that they're being treated any differently than the other players.

Qualcomms terms are not only confidential (I don't know where you got that figure from), but include Motorolas patents as part of their cross-licensing deal (which makes sense for Qualcomm because it's all about the low-level comms hardware). Not only that, but I doubt that the royalty base is the end price of the product (as FM pointed out, the end price includes lots that has nothing to do with the patents in question).

Qualcomms royalty is a total rate for all SEPs, including the cross-licensed ones. Nobody's won a cellular SEP infringement case against a Qualcomm baseband chip because they're all already covered. When you look at that - 3.4% for a license to thousands (all relevant) cellular SEPs from all companies that participated (hundreds), against 2.25% for a handful of patents from one company, it's obvious the rate is extortionate.

Apple aren't changing the rules; they're going by the letter of the law. It's google who are asking for special circumstances and exemptions to plunder the IP that Apple doesn't want to license.
 
After 13 pages of comments, it looks like you still don't understand anything about what Apple's appeal to its customers is, and why licensing is thus unacceptable for them. They should not have to license, period. If the patents are so obvious that they shouldn't have been granted, Google should have no problem invalidating them.

You're saying Apple's appeal to its customers is the uniqueness of their product features ?

There I thought Apple products appealed to its customers because of the polish, thought and design behind them. Silly me, I guess all this time, my MacBook Air and iPhone 4S have been enjoyable because Apple won't let others use questionable patents like "Slide back on incomplete swipe" in a photo gallery.

:rolleyes:

Maybe you just don't understand what about Apple products appeal to people if you think that Samsung/Motorola/HTC can just use a patent to implement it. No patent at all makes Apple products the way they are, they are much greater than the sum of their patents.

Google want a cross-licensing deal. They always have. It would cover up their reckless and willful infingement of Apple's non-SE patents (probably in a way similar to how they treated Oracles IP - that is, "do it anyway").

Which Oracle IP are you referring to ? rangeCheck or something ? I don't think Google used any Oracle IP. They used Apache Harmony, wrote Davlik from scratch and made their own implementation of the Java language by using the language specification available under license from Sun Microsystems.

Are you aware of some other Oracle IP we're not ? Can you please provide citations here ?
 
This, and thread over.

This is the most absurd lawyer speak I've ever heard. "You've done so well that instead of compete with you, we'd like to call your IP "standards" so that we can use it for free and take the money thats rightfully yours"

What a nutjob.

You're joking right? I'm sure Google would be happy to pay Apple if Apple actually licensed out their patents like everyone else does.
 
Again, Yahoo! can license PageRank from Stanford University and implement the same search algorithm Google does. Google does not own the patent to their search, it is not theirs to license out.[/QUOTE]

But if they don't want to License, should they have to?
 
Half-true. The rate was already set by Moto, who are the ones who broke the FRAND pledges.

Where are you getting this "fact" from ? Since all we have is Apple's word on it, can it really be stated as a fact ?

----------

If they're essential and you can't come up with a better solution then pay a fair price to the owners of the solution you need to use; isn't that what capitalism is all about?

That's what Google is asking too. They want to pay Apple a fair price to use their solution. That is what capitalism is all about.

So you agree with Google ? :D

----------

But if they don't want to License, should they have to?

Stanford does want to license, they don't have a search engine, how else can they make money from the patent.
 
How am I wrong exactly ? The block you quoted says nothing wrong, you debunk none of it (the Google lawyer did say what I say he did, he wants to pay licensing fees and Apple does have to fight court battles to protect its patents rather than make money from licensing them).

Is this a case of just claiming I'm wrong without that being the case at all ? Just for the kick of saying I was wrong ?

You're talking about the current situation, the Google lawyer is pushing to get that changed. And yes, Apple currently has a right to keep its toys, but all other OEMs can have them declared invalid through the courts by citing prior art and showing the obviousness of the claims of the patents.

Personally, I find Apple's position weak. They should make money from their patents instead of paying lawyers to lose them in court as they have been.

----------



Again, Yahoo! can license PageRank from Stanford University and implement the same search algorithm Google does. Google does not own the patent to their search, it is not theirs to license out.

But should they be forced to license if they do not want to?
 
Couldn't have said it better myself. Google just seems to be jealous that they don't have the brains to come up with good stuff themselves.

You mean like when Google came up with Apple's notification center and applied for a patent for it in 2009 :

http://www.google.com/patents/US20090249247

I sure hope Google licenses it to Apple if it gets granted, because I don't want to go back to old iOS notifications. Do you ?
 
What reckless and willful infringement? How they treated Oracle's IP? I think that the trial has told another tale

The oracle trial revealed that Google is perfectly happy to infringe IP that it believes is valid. A judge later ruled that that IP wasn't actually valid, but it doesn't escape the fact the Google

First "conclude that we need to negotiate a license for Java under the terms we need."

Next "Do Java anyway and defend our decision, perhaps making enemies along the way"

Google believed they needed a license for Java and were given a lucky break by the courts. There is not one internal Google email with a legal opinion that a license is unnecessary.

Same thing is happening here. Google know that lots of the little interface tweaks that make Apple's products so intuitive and engaging we're patented. They decided to copy many of them anyway. Maybe they really believed they were invalid, but as the above evidence shows, it wouldn't be unlike Google to just do it anyway and try and exploit the goodwill they previously earned in the tech community.
 
The oracle trial revealed that Google is perfectly happy to infringe IP that it believes is valid. A judge later ruled that that IP wasn't actually valid, but it doesn't escape the fact the Google

It showed nothing of the sort. Andy Rubin's and others testimony showed that they finally believed that the license wasn't required at all, a fact the judge's ruling supports. That is why they went forward with its use in Android, and did so by using Apache Harmony and implementing the language themselves.

Hence, you're just misrepresenting the trial and the rulings and the testimonies. Andy didn't implement Java in Android by infringing any IP. In fact, I don't think the Judge found really any IP invalid, just that it didn't apply (APIs are not copyrightable, rangeCheck is 9 lines that a high schooler could write and Davlik does not infringe any patents Oracle owns).

Why would you misrepresent it though ? What is your agenda here ? Why not just state the facts as they are, why try to spin them to say things they don't ?
 
If that lawyer gets anywhere with that "consumers well fare" argument I would like to see if it also applies to to patentent medicines.

I have had a gut full lawyers and politicians.

End rant.
 
Alright! I got something to do! And yeah, it was a boring damn book and preachy as hell. I think I started skipping around in it after page 300 or so.

See, ole Ayn assumed that the businesses are the source of all power in a capitalist society. They're the providers, and everything stems from them. But she's wrong. It's the consumer who powers capitalism. Case in point, you could make the most awesome thing in the world, but if no one's buying it, you're a failure in a capitalist society. You're not getting any capital, so what good are you?

So what would happen if every corporation packed up and moved to Colorado like they do in the book? Well, you see, the free market is all about providing stuff to people who buy it. If there's a vacuum out there, it will be filled. While all the great thinkers are up there listening to John Galt giving them a feel good explanation why being selfish bastards is a good, there's gonna be some guy, some upstart out there who wasn't invited to the big party who thinks "**** 'em. While they're gone, I'm gonna start making some steel. It might not be as good as Rearden's stuff, but hey! Guess what? He ain't selling it! I'll make a fortune while he's off listening to some guy on a blank TV screen give a huge masturbatory speech in a freaky commune for self obsessed freaks".

...and he does. And ironically enough, he does it while following the tenants of Objectivism. Which, when boiled down, is all about **** 'em, I'm in it for me. So all the Big Powerful People are getting shafted up on the mountain while they're patting themselves on the back, all the upstarts are filling the void they left behind. Even if they are "shackled by the government", they're still making money. Why? Because people want to buy what they're selling. And people are the power behind capitalism, not the manufacturers.

So Ayn Rand's big uprising would collapse in on itself because of itself. The big uprising she envisions wouldn't happen.

I have to disagree with you here since her assumption was not that businesses were the source of all power. Her view was that the source of all power was the individual or individuals whose ideas were the driving force behind the capitalist ideal. It's not the corporations or the consumers that power capitalism alone, it is a mutually beneficial system that requires both.

Her position wasn't that people producing should continue to produce just to satisfy the wants or needs of the consumers, but only if they wished to continue producing to that end. She did not believe that people that did produce should be obligated to do so for the sake of fulfilling an assumed "need" that gave the consumers a sense of entitlement to those producers' goods. She felt that the decision to continue producing should be the desire of the individual producing, not the compulsion of an authority or the demand of the masses.

And yes, the people that went off to Colorado would be aware that people would still receive the products they want from someone else, the reason they left is because they should not be compelled to continue providing the products to their own detriment. The example of Hank Rearden is good for this situation because he was forced through legislation to give up his intellectual property because people wanted the new and better stuff even though they could have easily continued to procure the regular steel that they had been using. So yes, he would have benefited initially from additional orders, but not when his formula was given to the government and his competitors; at that point his capital decreased.

And based on your argument, if the consumer is the driving force behind capitalism and the real power in a capitalist society, what need would there be to innovate if the consumers simply continue to demand what is already available? Essentially, there would be no need to do so since the objective of said capitalist society would only exist to maintain the status quo. It is this maintaining of the status quo when the people are in control of the means of production that leads to the marxist ideal of communism.

Maybe you should have stopped skipping around in the book because that probably was part of the reason for this misunderstanding. It is a philosophical approach to the current understanding of moral obligation within the context of an industrial society and how that arrangement is fundamentally unacceptable. She never said that it was wrong to produce what people wanted, as long as the desire to produce originates with the producer. The position of "**** 'em" as you said, is incorrect because it's not a malicious or self-centered action to stop producing. It is a selfish(to the proper degree) decision to no longer do what others demand that you to do simply because it might also benefit you.

In conclusion, her position is that no one is entitled to someone else's ability, innovation, or industry based on an assumed need. You should not be able or allowed to compel someone else to produce or do what you want simply because it might also benefit them.
 
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