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Do you like pinch-to-zoom? You can thank Apple.

The pinch-to-zoom gesture existed prior to Apple's patent. Even in Minority Report, some of the gestures used (albeit with two hands) are pinch-to-zoom. Perhaps the problem was no one before Apple attempted to patent it.


Watch Minority Report. That movie came out in 2002.

Ha! Funny we both had the same thought.
 
Translation: we like your innovations and want to use them for free to compete with you.

True, but unfortunately there is court history here. One of the most well known declarations of a patent being essential for economic growth and thus forced into public domain, is a skyscraper construction patent of the 1920's.

While it is now taken for granted, the concept of pouring a steel reenforced concrete foundation giving huge stability to build skyscrapers was patented right around the roaring '20s giving rise to the Manhattan skyline.

During the Great Depression, and the FDR Works Projects, this patent was forced into the public domain by the Fed so people could "go back to work" building skyscrapers all over the country.

I wouldn't be surprised a similar set of court filings is happening.
 
And yet nobody else in the history of computing was able to figure this one out.

Do you like pinch-to-zoom? You can thank Apple.

It came around about that time because multitouch capable capacitive touch screens had finally become available in large volumes. Prior to that a touch device had to be made with resistive touch screens which didn't provide good multitouch support. Multitouch would have come along regardless. The industry was already heading down that road.
 
For a company who recently earned ~$11 B+ (more than Microsoft & Google combined), it's downright pathetic for people to even suggest that Apple doesn't innovate. Even its income stream is diversified, unlike Google that is essentially a one trick pony whose profits (~95%) primarily come from search.

This is just Google feeling entitled, above the law & scared as ******* of Apple's patents. It sucks if you're always on the defensive, w/ nothing but "weak" FRAND-pledged defenses, against a company with more than $100 B in its war chest.

If you were Apple, Microsoft or any other company that sells software and/or hardware, how would you feel if another company starts giving away your products?

P.S. I honestly hope Marissa turns Yahoo! around, & together with Bing, Facebook & Twitter, give Google some serious competition on search & ad dollars.

from what i saw it seems well over 70%+ of apples income comes from the varying sizes of touch devices. and thats not including itunes which is closely related to those devices. dosent sound that diversified to me.

its ironic choice of wording but apple has completely lost touch with the people and businesses that kept it going
 
The iPhone had notifications before android even thought about it. It came from installer and Cydia apps Intelliscreen and Lock Info.


False, they were first on Android.

Ah, and multitouch was not invented by Apple

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So just like when Eric Schmidt was sitting on the Apple board and saw the iPhone and magically 9 months later google change Android from a keyboard/stylus OS to a multitouch screen OS. So without Apple, their would be no android?

Do you have anything to back your claim or it is more wishful wthinking?
 
I see both sides

Though, things like multitouch should be a standard....as what other way should there be to operate a touch device?

Same with a grid layout

These are all imo, obvious implementations of a touch screen device

Look at Blackberry. If they had come up with multi touch a few years ago like they should have, they would not have gone from 65% market share to 4% market share. Same with Google. Android was developed to use a stylus, not multi touch. It was only after Apple announced the iPhone at all of a sudden, everyone wanted to use multi touch. Dd they invent it? No, but they made it better. Anyone that has used an IOS device vs any other multi touch operating system can see that.
 
Man, I come home and see I've got about 20 replies waiting on me here from various places around the board, and visit this thread to find...what? Ignert noobers in desperate need of an education.

Honest question here. Why do some people feel this driving, almost pathological need to believe Apple invented everything, and everyone else only copies and steals, contributing nothing?

It's gone well beyond fanboyism. I'd just about consider it a mental tic. Jobsian Technological Victimhood Disassociation Disorder.

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The pinch-to-zoom gesture existed prior to Apple's patent. Even in Minority Report, some of the gestures used (albeit with two hands) are pinch-to-zoom. Perhaps the problem was no one before Apple attempted to patent it.

I'm thinking it was also demoed on the MS Surface back in 2006-2007ish.
 
I could respond in kind, but it'd be better for me to explain why I think software patents are a bad idea.

See, I think of the patent system as two separate entities. Hardware/physic design patents, and software. Physical design patents are necessary, because they're clear cut, obvious, an strict.

Like, say, Apple invents a way to route circuitry in a specific way through other specific pieces of hardware to save on battery life without any sacrifice to processing power. This is easily patentable. Apple has to show the patent office exactly what they've done in excruciating detail.

...and most importantly, it doesn't give Apple the right to the end result. Google could design a piece of hardware that achieves the same results in an entirely different way, like jigging a wire to the right and routing it through a herdegerder instead of Apple's patented woozit mechanism, and not be infringing on Apple's patent. The end result is the same, but the path there is entirely different.

Then you have software patents. Which are basically people thinking of clever ways to phrase commands to a machine. They're using a preset language to produce results. Because of the specificity of the process of the design, rather than the design itself the end result has to be made a part of the patent. It's not just "we found a clever way to do this", rather "we found a clever way to tell a computer to do this". Why should you get a patent from using an already established language to tell a computer to execute a command? Isn't that what programming languages were invented for? To tell computers to do things?

And then you have UI patents. Sometimes they're justified, sometimes they're completely inane. Like Apple's recent patent on the disappearing scrollbar. That's just...stupid. I can't believe it even passed inspection at the patent office. It's not clever. It's not a completely unprecedented feature of the scrollbar, or even an unheard of feature in the computer world. It's like the dock or Windows taskbar sliding down when not in use...only now for the scroll bar.

Apple knows this, but they went ahead and patented it anyway. Why? Because they're literally trying to patent every single software related thing they can think of, regardless of it's novelty or innovation. If they can think of a neat feature, even one they've seen on another OS previously, they'll patent it if they can, because it's more ammo to be used against the competition later.

What the disappearing scrollbar showed me is that Apple isn't using the patent system, they're abusing it.

Software should only be trademarked and copyrighted. Patenting things like the ability to tell a computer to search multiple databases is like an writer being able to patent an entire genre. It's like a guy going before the court and saying "You see, your honor, my character gets murdered in the first act, with his murder being solved by the climax in the third. Much like my alleged competitor's book, which follows a very similar process to the end. Therefore, he's infringing upon my idea".

Anyway, I'd go more into detail, but it's storming out really bad at the mo, and I want to shut my comp down. But hopefully you can see why I think software patents are bad. They stifle innovation rather than foster it.

Why is the programming language different than wires and resistors? Hey, someone invented capacitors and shielded cables to make electronics. Computer programming is hard. People seem to think because it doesn't use physical parts, it's either simple, magic or done by the computers themselves. It is not. Good programmers and innovative code is very hard to come by and costs just as much to develop as hardware innovation. This whole "software

----------

I could respond in kind, but it'd be better for me to explain why I think software patents are a bad idea.

See, I think of the patent system as two separate entities. Hardware/physic design patents, and software. Physical design patents are necessary, because they're clear cut, obvious, an strict.

Like, say, Apple invents a way to route circuitry in a specific way through other specific pieces of hardware to save on battery life without any sacrifice to processing power. This is easily patentable. Apple has to show the patent office exactly what they've done in excruciating detail.

...and most importantly, it doesn't give Apple the right to the end result. Google could design a piece of hardware that achieves the same results in an entirely different way, like jigging a wire to the right and routing it through a herdegerder instead of Apple's patented woozit mechanism, and not be infringing on Apple's patent. The end result is the same, but the path there is entirely different.

Then you have software patents. Which are basically people thinking of clever ways to phrase commands to a machine. They're using a preset language to produce results. Because of the specificity of the process of the design, rather than the design itself the end result has to be made a part of the patent. It's not just "we found a clever way to do this", rather "we found a clever way to tell a computer to do this". Why should you get a patent from using an already established language to tell a computer to execute a command? Isn't that what programming languages were invented for? To tell computers to do things?

And then you have UI patents. Sometimes they're justified, sometimes they're completely inane. Like Apple's recent patent on the disappearing scrollbar. That's just...stupid. I can't believe it even passed inspection at the patent office. It's not clever. It's not a completely unprecedented feature of the scrollbar, or even an unheard of feature in the computer world. It's like the dock or Windows taskbar sliding down when not in use...only now for the scroll bar.

Apple knows this, but they went ahead and patented it anyway. Why? Because they're literally trying to patent every single software related thing they can think of, regardless of it's novelty or innovation. If they can think of a neat feature, even one they've seen on another OS previously, they'll patent it if they can, because it's more ammo to be used against the competition later.

What the disappearing scrollbar showed me is that Apple isn't using the patent system, they're abusing it.

Software should only be trademarked and copyrighted. Patenting things like the ability to tell a computer to search multiple databases is like an writer being able to patent an entire genre. It's like a guy going before the court and saying "You see, your honor, my character gets murdered in the first act, with his murder being solved by the climax in the third. Much like my alleged competitor's book, which follows a very similar process to the end. Therefore, he's infringing upon my idea".

Anyway, I'd go more into detail, but it's storming out really bad at the mo, and I want to shut my comp down. But hopefully you can see why I think software patents are bad. They stifle innovation rather than foster it.

Why is the programming language different than wires and resistors? Hey, someone invented capacitors and shielded cables to make electronics. Computer programming is hard. People seem to think because it doesn't use physical parts, it's either simple, magic or done by the computers themselves. It is not. Good programmers and innovative code is very hard to come by and costs just as much to develop as hardware innovation. This whole "software shouldn't be patentable" garbage is completely absurd drivel from people who don't understand what they're talking about.
 
ame with Google. Android was developed to use a stylus, not multi touch.

Source?

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Why is the programming language different than wires and resistors? Hey, someone invented capacitors and shielded cables to make electronics. Computer programming is hard. People seem to think because it doesn't use physical parts, it's either simple, magic or done by the computers themselves. It is not. Good programmers and innovative code is very hard to come by and costs just as much to develop as hardware innovation. This whole "software shouldn't be patentable" garbage is completely absurd drivel from people who don't understand what they're talking about.

Copyright should be enough for software.

And you're the one that doesn't understand the difference between ideas and implementation. It is the implementation the thing that must be protected, not the idea
 
Why is the programming language different than wires and resistors? Hey, someone invented capacitors and shielded cables to make electronics. Computer programming is hard. People seem to think because it doesn't use physical parts, it's either simple, magic or done by the computers themselves. It is not. Good programmers and innovative code is very hard to come by and costs just as much to develop as hardware innovation. This whole "software shouldn't be patentable" garbage is completely absurd drivel from people who don't understand what they're talking about.

The post so nice, you quoted it twice!

Look up anything John Carmack has to say about software patents. The issue surrounding Carmack's Reverse, or his opinion that a bunch of smart people told to work on a program that addresses an issue, will come up with about the same solution at about the same time.

The biggest thing with software patents isn't who invented it, it's who ran to the patent office first and gets to gouge everyone over licensing fees for 30+ years.

Basically, you cannot make a program these days without accidentally infringing on 500 patents you weren't aware of. You could be an absolute genius, talk code like it's your native language, and...it won't matter. 500 people from 500 different companies have already locked down each and every novel code trick and technique you though you yourself just came up with.

It's like being able to patent a specific type of poetry. Eventually, people are going to run out of new ways to string together a bunch of rhyming phrases, and they'll have to pay someone else just to be able to do their work.
 
False, they were first on Android.
False, they existed long before Android, which is why Google was not able to patent them. A form of notifications on a mobile device goes at least as far back as the Newton, and is not patented.
Ah, and multitouch was not invented by Apple
True, but Fingerworks, which was later purchased by Apple, pioneered chord-based manipulation of multitouch, one of the main reasons why the iPhone's multitouch worked much better than touch screens in previous hand-held devices. And Apple was among the first (if not the first) to use capacitative multitouch screens.
LOL give me a break. Apple may be the first to patent it, but I guarantee you other people figured it out. Its not like if apple didnt come out with it then no one else would have. This is just common sense.

Watch Minority Report. That movie came out in 2002.
If comparable prior art exists, then the patent will be invalidated if anyone challenges it in court.
 
False, they existed long before Android, which is why Google was not able to patent them. A form of notifications on a mobile device goes at least as far back as the Newton, and is not patented.

I have not said that Google invented them, I only have said that they were first on Android than on iOS, nothing more.

Ah, and they have applied the patent for the pull down notification bat

http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph...srchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=20090249247.PGNR.
 
Copyright should be enough for software.
So if you develop an app, and someone else develops an app that looks and performs in the exact same manner, they should be able to copy your concepts, just as long as they use different code? What's the point of you using your time and effort to come up with the original concept then, if there is no consequence for anyone else who steals it? Such an approach would stifle innovation because there would be no reward for the initial investment.
 
So if you develop an app, and someone else develops an app that looks and performs in the exact same manner, they should be able to copy your concepts, just as long as they use different code? What's the point of you using your time and effort to come up with the original concept then, if there is no consequence for anyone else who steals it? Such an approach would stifle innovation because there would be no reward for the initial investment.

Ah, there has to be just one word processor, one spreadsheet, one email program.

Only one operating system?

Copyright, trademark and trade dress are enough
 
I have not said that Google invented them, I only have said that they were first on Android than on iOS, nothing more.

Ah, and they have applied the patent for the pull down notification bat

http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph...srchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=20090249247.PGNR.
I guess I misunderstood your claim. It will be interesting to see whether they will be granted such a patent, considering the prior art out there.

Edit: your link does not match any records.
 
So if you develop an app, and someone else develops an app that looks and performs in the exact same manner, they should be able to copy your concepts, just as long as they use different code? What's the point of you using your time and effort to come up with the original concept then, if there is no consequence for anyone else who steals it? Such an approach would stifle innovation because there would be no reward for the initial investment.

For all the alleged copying Android is being accused of, it hasn't hurt Apple much at all, has it? Despite the plethora of Android devices, the iPhone is still the single best selling phone, and Apple receives the vast majority of profits being funnelled through the smartphone market. They're not exactly suffering, abused innovations that they are.

The "no reason to innovate" argument is a strawman that has no basis in reality.

And here's a working link to the notification bar patent.

...which looks considerably similar to what Apple has implemented in iOS5. Are you going to accuse Apple of infringing upon Google's innovations? Should Apple remove the entire notification system in iOS6?
 
Ah, there has to be just one word processor, one spreadsheet, one email program.

Only one operating system?

Copyright, trademark and trade dress are enough
Sorry, can't understand what you are saying. There can be an infinite number of operating systems and programs, but if they look and act in exactly the same manner, then there really is no point in having more than one.

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Thanks for the link.
 
Sorry, can't understand what you are saying. There can be an infinite number of operating systems and programs, but if they look and act in exactly the same manner, then there really is no point in having more than one.

Then companies will have to differentiate their products to separate themselves from the competition. This is why software patents aren't necessary, and why your "no reason to innovate" argument is moot. Even if a smaller company copies an idea made by a larger, more entrenched competitor, they'll still have to go that extra mile to show that their product is better. Give people a reason to buy it. Loosening software patents won't suddenly mean that the whole world works off one universal OS with a different brand name stuck to it.

I mean hell, you're even seeing proof to such now. The only similarities between Android and iOS is that they both use icons and are driven primarily by finger input. Beyond that, they're quite a bit different.
 
For all the alleged copying Android is being accused of, it hasn't hurt Apple much at all, has it? Despite the plethora of Android devices, the iPhone is still the single best selling phone, and Apple receives the vast majority of profits being funnelled through the smartphone market. They're not exactly suffering, abused innovations that they are.

The "no reason to innovate" argument is a strawman that has no basis in reality.
This is the current reality in which patents are granted for software concepts, rather than just a copyright on computer code. I was referencing the suggestion that software should not be patentable.
And here's a working link to the notification bar patent.

...which looks considerably similar to what Apple has implemented in iOS5. Are you going to accuse Apple of infringing upon Google's innovations? Should Apple remove the entire notification system in iOS6?
If Google is granted the patent it has applied for with respect to the notifications sytem, then obviously Apple will have to license it or remove it, or change it sufficiently that it is not considered infringement.

I must say, in consideration of the argument put forward by you and Oleotros, that the bar for patents being granted should be raised considerably from its present state. Patent applications should be required to be much more specific, in particular, rather than vague concepts such as "a method for transmitting information without the use of a physical connection" or "a method for entering information into a computing device", which seems to be the current standard.
 
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If Google is granted the patent it has applied for with respect to the notifications sytem, then obviously Apple will have to license it or remove it.

Yeah, and who suffers? You and I. I like the new iOS notification system. It's far and away superior to the single popups that annoyed the hell out of you in iOS 1-4.

And truthfully, much like all software patents, it's not really that novel of an idea. It can be trademarked and copyrighted so it doesn't look or perform exactly the same, but the basic function should remain intact. We've been using similar software implementations to dropdown notifications since email started getting big. They don't drop down exactly, but they presented information in vertical blocks. Why should one company, Apple or Google, have the rights to what's ultimately a pretty generic idea?
 
Then companies will have to differentiate their products to separate themselves from the competition. This is why software patents aren't necessary, and why your "no reason to innovate" argument is moot. Even if a smaller company copies an idea made by a larger, more entrenched competitor, they'll still have to go that extra mile to show that their product is better. Give people a reason to buy it. Loosening software patents won't suddenly mean that the whole world works off one universal OS with a different brand name stuck to it.

I mean hell, you're even seeing proof to such now. The only similarities between Android and iOS is that they both use icons and are driven primarily by finger input. Beyond that, they're quite a bit different.
This argument works well for small companies that need to differentiate themselves. But why would larger companies like Apple want to innovate? Why not just wait to see what someone else does, copy it without consequence, and rely on the brand name to sell it? Do you really want Apple to only make products that copy what someone else is doing, improving the bottom line by removing most of its R & D expenses?
 
I see this a lot. Ideas. Capitalized. Sometimes italicized. To people saying this, the iPhone itself is The Idea.

Not some internal programming BS that parses numbers. Not making a scrollbar disappear when not in use. Not beveled edges. None of the things that Apple has sued over these past few years.

No. There's the iPhone as a whole. The Idea that Apple thought of first, and all companies pathetically strive for by making other phones that are similar to the iPhone.

These iPhone like phones that came out before the iPhone were NOTHING like the iPhone. How could you mix up the two? Such as...

This...

Image

Is absolutely nothing like this...

Image.

But this...

Image

...is a cheap ripoff. A stolen product, if you will.

Jesus. Can't you people think objectively?

All i see here is a desktop with icons...
 
I must say, in consideration of the argument put forward by you and Oleotros, that the bar for patents being granted should be raised considerably from its present state. Patent applications should be required to be much more specific, in particular, rather than vague concepts such as "a method for transmitting information without the use of a physical connection" or "a method for entering information into a computing device", which seems to be the current standard.

That would be a good enough solution, I guess. They have to be specific. Exact. They can't patent the idea of a dropdown menu that shows the user notifications from various sources, which is, like I said above, generic.

Rather, companies would have to patent their very specific implementation of it, and it'd have to offer something truly novel that's never been seen before. Otherwise, it's just patenting a nonspecific framework to work within, or an obvious evolution of an idea that's already been presented previously. As is, it wouldn't matter if you could do a dropdown menu 1000x better than the other guy. The other guy owns the idea of it. If you can't improve upon someone else's idea, you can't innovate. If you can't innovate, everything stagnates.
 
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