Greenpeace Rates Apple 4th Worst Eco-Friendly Tech Business, Apple Responds

[ezekielrage_99]

I think people are missing the point....

Anyway who really gives a crap what a bunch of pot smoking tree hugging hippies think.

I know I don't

 

[radio893fm]

Thank God Apple users just amount 3% -or something like that- in the computer industry (forget about the ipod)...

If everybody thought like most people in this board, the world would be a more scarier (if possible) place to live in...

 

[pink-pony115]

ooooooooooh no is the world coming to a end?

R-E-L-A-X fello MR peeps

 

[Groovey]

I think people are missing the point....

Anyway who really gives a crap what a bunch of pot smoking tree hugging hippies think.

I know I don't

Is 99 for your year of birth? It's not like there's ten of them. You've probably had too many nightmares about Woodstock.

 

[Dr.Gargoyle]

Most classic geophysicists & geologists do not believe man is causing global warming.

Absolute nonsense.

Global warming is a natural process and has happened many times over the lifespan of the earth. Sometimes it precedes an ice age sometimes it is ralated to internal changes within the earth core. It has occured in our past and it appears to be occuring now. The real reason for cooling and warming of the Earth are not well understood.

You are here talking about the natural oscillation of temperature (see my previuos post) geophysists often talk about which leads to an occasional ice age now then. There is a natural CO2 variation in the atmosphere which have been studied over extremely long periods by studying ice core samples from e.g. Greenland.
Every single well-founded theoretical model over natural CO2 variation model predicts we are outside the natural variation.
That is a fact.
We also know that CO2 is very potent greenhouse effect.
Thus we also know that the earth is getting warmer due to the increased CO2 level.
The increased CO2 level coincides with the industrilization when man began to burn fossile fuel in a historically unprecedented manner.
Mankind is causing the increased CO2 level. CO2 is a greenhouse gas.
This can of course not the explain the natural variation of temperature, but the fact remains our activities here in earth is causing an increased temperature.

Environmental scientists agree that man is causing global warming. All of their theories are based on models.

All scientific models are just theoretical models and can not be prove themselves. (see Gödel 1931)

But these models are designed trying to prove that man's production of greenhouse gas is the cause and they are way too simplified. We do not have enough information on all of the critical factors affecting climate change to build proper models.

In consequense of your argument and Gödel, it follows that we never can say anything about science. This is the same argument tobacco lobbyists have been using in defence of cigarettes.

Reality may be somewhere in between. However global warming has taken place on Venus and is currently taking place on Mars. Man obviously did not cause thes activities and it may or may not be related to the Earth's current episode of warming.

Again, you are talking about natural variations. But again, not a single theretical model predicts the current CO2 level to be natural variation.

I am not arguing with the idea of reducing greenhouse gas emissions if we can practically. Why contribute to a problem. I just don't think that we can effect climate change on a global scale and if the Earth choses to warm for whatever reason we will not be able to stop it.

No one is claiming to have the final model explaining the temperature on earth. Nevertheless, the fact remains, we are outside the natural CO2 level. CO2 is a powerful greenhouse gas. There is a significant lag between the level of CO2 and the temperature on earth. Hence, if we don't do something now it might be late tomorrow. I wrote might, because, as you said, noone knows for sure. But are we really interested in playing dice with our own existence?

Sidenote: In science, the name of the game is getting publications. The sorry fact is that you don't get publications by singing with the choir. Since this debate is considered both important and urgent, it is easier to get a not-so well-founded-model published right now. I have seen crazy ideas published explaining the incrased temperature on earth as cow flatulence and rotting trees at bottoms of lakes (methane gas is also a potent greenhouse gas)
These publications makes it unfortunately even harder to sort out the real facts about this issue which very well might be the most important issue mankind has been faced with here on earth.

 

[bousozoku]

It does concern me but I've yet to dispose of any equipment. Everything about our daily lives abounds with waste, doesn't it?

I recycle whenever I can, but just because something has a recycling symbol doesn't mean that the company overseeing local recycling will accept it because they might not have the facilities to process it.

My car obviously pollutes more than I like even though the catalytic converter has been replaced and using air conditioning (car or home) uses chemicals that also pollute.

I don't trust Greenpeace any more than I trust our government. They're on opposite ends and neither cares about the truth. Either can be bought.

Having seen videos of Greenpeace in operation, I wonder if their "operations" are environmentally-friendly, whether it be a simple protest or an attack on a whaling ship.

After all this, Apple indeed need to get the lead out and clean up their act. Seeing as how the AirPort Extreme Basestation and iSight were recently removed from the EU shows that they have work to do.

 

[ezekielrage_99]

Is 99 for your year of birth? It's not like there's ten of them. You've probably had too many nightmares about Woodstock.

Which woodstock are we talking about? I hope the new one in the 90's that one was sweet.

 

[ezekielrage_99]

Thank God Apple users just amount 3% -or something like that- in the computer industry (forget about the ipod)...

If everybody thought like most people in this board, the world would be a more scarier (if possible) place to live in...

I wonder if Dell rated highly because of that battery thing

 

[ezekielrage_99]

Is 99 for your year of birth? It's not like there's ten of them. You've probably had too many nightmares about Woodstock.

For your information I'm 26 work, I have a Masters, I'm a officer (imagery information analyst) for the defence force. In my line of work I get this inanely useless "hippy crap" 24 hour a day 7 days a week, kind of sick of hearing the same doom and gloom stories.

The majority of the people who put these studies out usually have ZERO idea of how to combat the problems, they say it's bad and when you ask how can we do something about it they have not a clue. Hence influencial people have a problem taking certain groups seriously, and hence my overly cynical response.

 

[BoyBach]

I'm a officer (imagery information analyst) for the defence force. In my line of work I get this inanely useless "hippy crap" 24 hour a day 7 days a week

The army is full of hippies?

Or are you spying on hippy communes? <shifty eyes>

 

[ezekielrage_99]

The army is full of hippies?

Or are you spying on hippy communes? <shifty eyes>

Nope just blowback from the general public, got to love orders that come from the top

I work with the general public a fair bit, handing out info and media packs to the press.....

 

[zarusoba]

Wealth can provide no shield from pollution

The fact is that there is no industry or organisation that does not depend on healthy ecosystems for its survival and growth. Therefore, even those who lack any moral imperative to protect the environment must surely choose to do so out of sheer logic.

Greenpeace's report is not necessarily correct. Lest we forget that old adage: "You can't believe everything you read." However, organisations like Greenpeace fulfill an essential role and provide an opening for debate and for the development of effective environmental standards.

The Montreal Protocol that prohibited CFC production is an example of a successful environmental treaty that benefits everyone by placing appropriate limitation on industry.

"Wealth can provide no shield from pollution."
Ronald Wright, "A Short History of Progress"

 

[reden]

I was looking through Apple's enviromental contributions about 3 weeks ago and there was nothing that I didn't like. I think Apple is really putting good efforts to help the enviroment. It's very tough to create a self-sustained company and recuding their footprint on this world as a computer company.

Also, what these enviroment companies fail to realize is that Apple computers are different. People keep these computers for longer periods of time, they almost become novelty items. When the hell have you heard someone post a DELL LISA on EBAY? You know how people recycle their Macs for the most part? They pass them on to someone, schools, their local YMCA because it's always a useful piece of equipment that lasts for a good amount of time. They also reduce their footprint by not breaking down as much as their PC counter parts.

Of all the Macs I've owned in the past 10 years, I've NEVER had to take my Mac to get it fixed such as a replaced motherboard or anything like that. Macs last longer, they are useful for longer periods of time, etc. LEARN TO EVALUATE THAT GREENwhatever. I've owned a G4, an iMac, a pizza-box powerpc, and I know where all these computers are located, and they still function. I know they're not in some dump.

 

[deconai]

A few years ago in college, my Geology professor (he works at NASA developing new energy technologies and teaches during the Summer as a side job) told us that Mother Nature is actually the largest contributor to greenhouse gases through the release of methane attributed to volacones. In fact, one volcano puts out more methane gas than the entire USA. Apparently humans are only responsible for a fraction of a percent of the greenhouse gases found in the natural atmosphere.

Face it, global warming is a buzz phrase quickly falling out of fashion. The temperature changes we are experiencing are part of a cycle, nothing more.

The real problem that humans create is the rapid consumption of the earth's natural resources. We need to remember to recriprocate this consumption with preservation.

 

[Spectrum]

I think people are missing the point....
Anyway who really gives a crap what a bunch of pot smoking tree hugging hippies think.
I know I don't

Congratulations! You just got added to the list.

 

[mpstrex]

What about this:

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/living/articles/2006/08/30/mits_inconvenient_scientist/

or this:

http://adamant.typepad.com/seitz/2006/08/black_hydrogen.html

or this:

"Science politicized is science betrayed. Adamant focuses on advances in science and international security, and how the rhetoric of motives distorts them in public television, often thoughtless think tanks, and both sides of the aisle in a Congress where lawyers outnumber scientists 30 to 1.

"It also affords respite from the Science Wars by surveying bizarre things that surface in the 36,000 ostensibly learned journals to which Harvard's library's subscribes." -Physicist Dr. Russell Seitz

 

[mpstrex]

I have to say, I am APPALLED by the irresponsible attitude of some people on this forum (and probably the world). Businesses, corporations, governments, AND individuals should all be behaving in a socially and environmentally responsible manner. This is in no way "anti-progress". When did you all gain the right to be so selfish, self-centred, and bigoted in your beliefs?

Edit: Added some more bigoted quotes.
Edit: Added a couple more gems.
Edit: One more.

Bigoted? Wow. I mean, yeah, some of those were crossing the line, but if I exercise my freedom of speech and say that many environmentalists subscribe to ideals and faith vs. facts, does that mean I'm a bigot? Jeez, I've been called worse when I say my opinions. People can say what they want; others certainly do when it comes to Conservatives and the Israelis (Nazis, Zionists, war mongers, etc.--and that's just IN the USA). I don't subscribe to hatred, but before you start labelling anyone who disagrees with your opinions and beliefs a bigot and irresponsible, think about how you're trying to stifle our freedoms of speech. Again, a few of those crossed the line, but I hope you aren't trying to stop us from talking.

 

[RogueWarrior65]

Leaches!

Greenpeas never gave a damn until Apple was a red-hot company again. Same thing with Creative. You waited THIS long to bitch and moan about your intellectual property?

No lawyer ever gives a crap unless the target has lots of money.

 

[mpstrex]

And for the record, of the 12+ Apples and 3+ iPods I've owned, I've:

1. Donated my 1994 Apple Performa (?), of which I got a lot of mileage out of, to a company that fixed it, removed my data for me, and gave the computer to women who were abused.

2. I've sold all my other Apples to new owners who used them for school, work, etc.

3. I have an old Power Book I sold to my old roommate, whose new roomies dropped it (and his new PC notebook, whoops), and I have it back. I may just sell it to an Apple guru who can repair and use it.

4. My old iPod (Gen 2, 2002) is about to become a special OS X bootable disk; my wife's mini now belongs to her Dad; my other iPod (gen 3 or 4--last black and white one) my wife uses; and I love my iPod video.

No need to throw any of it away, no need to recycle it if others can use it, and I can take the money and buy new Apples or pay some bills, etc.

 

[kurtsayin]

Green Peace is not a watchdog group!

Who cares what greenpeace says about anything anyways?! They are a bunch of whack jobs who have been caught numerous times for fraud and are CONSTANTLY under investigation for fraud. This means they have a very specific agenda: Not to make the world greener when they find a problem, but to make problems in order to feel effective - even when it is entirely unnecessary.

Besides, if Apple were to somehow change their operating procedures in order to comply with the "green" standards, they will do nothing but lose money through another transition period which will slow their growth, lessen their capital resources, and make for slower product upgrades and releases - which will hurt the company detrimentally!

Besides, what does PVC really do anyways? It is a water-resistent, non-corrosive, plastic compound. It isn't toxic- per-say. It is only toxic when burned, and only to people in direct contact with the fumes - which is basically nobody. The real reason green peace wants to push this issue right now is because they think they are part of some eco-revolution that will bring down all corporations and make it so we all live happily in tee-pees without our manufactured products. Frankly, I am happy with my ibook and my motorola phone, and buick lesabre, and my flat screen tv, and I think everyone else is too, so tell green peace to just mind their own business and go live out in one of our MILLION ACRE FORESTS if they don't like progress and technology!

 

[mpstrex]

Something just dawned on me. Like when Macrumors (or someone) posted that Rush Limbaugh was selling his broadcasts for MP3 players, people here were divided. And it's the same thing with Greenpeace. We're fighting over idealistic opinions.

Maybe we should focus our attention on fighting for the Apple and all its greatness (and some not-so-great things), instead of against each other.

 

[Groovey]

Something just dawned on me. Like when Macrumors (or someone) posted that Rush Limbaugh was selling his broadcasts for MP3 players, people here were divided. And it's the same thing with Greenpeace. We're fighting over idealistic opinions.

Maybe we should focus our attention on fighting for the Apple and all its greatness (and some not-so-great things), instead of against each other.

Totally agreed. I think one part of the problem is that idealism quite often seems to drive people to have extreme opinions, or else it feels like they wouldn't be standing behind their own point of view. Everyone should at least try to realize the other side of the game no matter whether you're "huggin' trees with a joint" for GP or "shooting crappy hippypeople" for the government.

Peace out!

 

[mpstrex]

And don't forget, Groovey, that only a small percentage of Americans are considered more of the hard-line political peeps.

 

[AlBDamned]

From Cult of Mac's blog on the issue:

I have now had the chance to read through Greenpeace's "Guide to Greener Electronics," and there are a few things that should be clarified about where Apple ranks.

First of all, the article I linked this morning claimed that Apple and Lenovo were at the bottom of the charts. Well, that's not true. Lenovo scored an appalling 1.3 out of 10 while Apple pulled a marginally more successful 2.7 out of 10. In between were Motorola and Acer.

The criticisms of Apple are fair, I would say, though I think there's some nuance to what HP is doing with recycling that tends to make it look unfavorably better than others. Why? Ink cartridges and printers. HP has a lot more to take back than any other company, so their commitment to percentage of sales taken back is actually a possibility.

Given that Apple actually offers free computer recycling with the purchase of a computer, something that Dell does but HP does not, it's odd to say they're doing less to keep computers out of the waste stream. On the other hand, Apple has no takeback goals, so it really does balance out.

The other criticisms of Apple are on target, however. The company is secretive, and that meets they tend to be secretive about their environmental planning as well. They have a regulated substances list, but it isn't public. They're committed to eliminating PVCs, but won't say when. Ditto for BFRs.

It's not necessarily that Apple's environmental record is legitimately bad, but they do a very poor job of informing their customers about their environmental efforts. Silence is suspicious here, folks.

 

[Free2B]

The Al Gore effect

Maybe someone has mentioned this, but I find it extremely ironic that Greenpeace is hitting up Apple, where none other than Al Gore is on the board!! Can Apple really be that bad? (oh, they were 4th worst out of about 20 companies.) So, either Al Gore doesn't put his money where his mouth is, or Greenpeace is just trying further its anti-corporate agenda. Maybe both???