Grrrrrr... Damn PC loving IT "specialist" - Could use some suggestions.

[MagicWok]

ARGH!

Just thought I'd vent my anger somewhat.

Here's the story, sorry for the slightly long post:

I work for a company that is using PeeCee's due to their main program switching from Mac & PC, to a PC only variant. Fair enough.

I was recruited last year as a graphic designer for them, we're steadily hiring more designers for some big things coming up. These "black hell dell boxs" we have as I call them, are fine for the programs they use, but they croak at the heavy Photoshop, InDesign and Rendering that I and we do. Such to an extent it slow me up working.

I've talked to my directors, and they've given the go-ahead to get some Mac Pro's for the office, along with some ACD's. Relief!

The next day I get a response from some IT guy that doesn't really raise his head in the office, and I quote:

"they are more expensive and not as fast. We will also encounter problems with access to the office calendar and public folders."

I was pretty annoyed, and it's pretty obvious from his comments that this so-called IT specialist, is ill-informed and some PC fanboy/Mac hater, take your pick.

To be so blase and say they are not fast is simply a joke. Not fast, in what context? I'll line up a quad-core xeon Mac Pro in CS3 and Rendering, against the crap-box's we have here, and any PC he can line up aside, and we'll see who's smiling at the end of it. It's like trying to win an argument by "saying Macs don't play games"; both short sighted, ignorant, out-of-date and un-educated.

What I don't have much experience on however, is syncing up these Mac Pros (in OSX) to a windoze network. We have terrabytes of data stored on a network spread over 8 or so main network drives. I presume it is no problem, but I'd like to be sure from any of your experiences that it's no hastle to connect up the network we have set up.

Secondly, is there someway to integrate through OSX (without using parralels/bootcamp) with Microsoft Outlook, emails & calendar etc. We will be installing bootcamp, but I'd like to stay in OSX as much as I can. Does Mail in OSX integrate well with Microsoft Outlook?

Many thanks for your help guys.

 

[mad jew]

Okay, use the Windows networking guide as a starter for the first problem. It's certainly not impossible to connect Macs to PCs and over the years it's even become quite easy. The linked guide is very comprehensive and a lot of it might not even apply to your work setup, so don't be intimidated by its size.

As for the second problem... Well I reckon you might be talking about Microsoft Exchange which Mail can access. I haven't seen a way to get iCal to access the calendars though. Nevertheless, that's where Entourage (which comes with Office for Mac) might come in handy.

To help you here more, we'll probably need more information.

 

[Queso]

Any problems with no Outlook can easily be resolved by your Exchange servers using the built-in Outlook Web Access component. That allows Outlook access through a web browser, even to calendars and public folders.

Most organisations with Exchange already have this turned on, so I'll be surprised if you're not already running it in your company.

 

[MagicWok]

Thanks guys. I think I was just a little annoyed at the "Mac's aren't fast" comment lol. I'm by no means a fan-boy for Mac's and register there are flaws, but I don't take kindly to blind ignorance lol. Just my person...

Anyway, I do understand the problem when it comes to windows networks, being that I think they are NTFS, OSX still can't presently natively write to those partitions. A way around is to use Parallels and an external FW800 HDD of some sort to use as a swap drive between the two OS's.

We do have Outlook Web Access on our Entourage servers, which works very well with Firefox under OSX. I suppose you have a program open to access Outlook Web Access regardless of which program it is.

 

[mad jew]

Fair enough mate. Don't worry about the NTFS thing 'cause it's bypassed through a network. That's only applicable when OSX has to directly write to an NTFS drive, for example in an external enclosure.

 

[Danksi]

Your requirement will be that you want the most appropriate tool(s) for your work - your IT guy's requirement will be to simplify the control/support of those tools.

He's right to raise the cost/support points, but that should be balanced with the benefits to you and your team.

Assuming your company uses Active Directory to maintain control of the Workstations, your IT guy should still be able to set the Mac's up in a similar way to the Windows machines. Apple Support has some info.

According to Microsoft however, Firefox will only provide 'basic' Outlook web-access, compared to Internet Explorer, but it should still be sufficient.

 

[suneohair]

Entourage in the Office Suite works just fine with an Exchange server, it is MS product. There are some snags though. Just weird things that were left out of Entourage, but you can do the same things. Share Calendars, view others Calendars, mail, schedule around availability, etc. I work IT here at my Uni and I support the Macs (since no one else can, lol) and we recently had a campus wide switch on the calendar side from Meeting Maker to Exchange Calendaring.

OWA is not a good solution. Entourage is a much better one. OWA in anything but IE is very minimal. For example, month view disappears. Not to mention it will be slower. If you can push it, go Office and use Entourage. Trust me.

There are some anomalies when setting up a Mac in a windows environment. But, there are tons of things you can add to Active Directory to make it work just fine. It means the IT guys will have to do work. One thing I know of is that shared network drives just unmount themselves. Quite strange really.

The whole not fast bit, yeah, I get that crap here at work. It is ridiculous. But hey, what can you do with the PC fatheads that only know one side!?

Good luck. I know how you feel when it comes to working on a PC. Which, you can't really do IMO. Ugh. Makes me sick thinking about it. It will take some work on your part to get it in motion. So be ready to do their work for them.

 

[djbahdow01]

Where I am right now we are running G5s and G4s on a Windows network. The IT dept doesn't want anything to do with us as they have no clue how to troubleshoot any Mac issue. As for compatibility issues like anyone else has said, Entourage works well in a Windows/Outlook enviroment. You can even search the email/contact list if you set up to sync with the Exchange server.

Its pointless to fight with IT, especially when they don't hae a clue.

The one problem we have with our IT is that they don't want us to have our own backup server as they want total control. We feel we need a server to back up on that we can control, as of right now our files are served on the email server which is not the smartest thing in the world but who am I to judge IT. One would think that since these graphics files get transfered over the world they would want them to be virus free.

Oh well good luck with your quest to get some Mac Pros in the office.

 

[Ninja Guidan]

Thanks guys. I think I was just a little annoyed at the "Mac's aren't fast" comment lol. I'm by no means a fan-boy for Mac's and register there are flaws, but I don't take kindly to blind ignorance lol. Just my person...

Anyway, I do understand the problem when it comes to windows networks, being that I think they are NTFS, OSX still can't presently natively write to those partitions. A way around is to use Parallels and an external FW800 HDD of some sort to use as a swap drive between the two OS's.

We do have Outlook Web Access on our Entourage servers, which works very well with Firefox under OSX. I suppose you have a program open to access Outlook Web Access regardless of which program it is.

Sounds like if your boss/manager has already given you the OK to purchase the Mac Pros and you're getting push back from IT, then your boss/manager should escalate to the IT manager or director stating the business needs.

 

[mcc]

Our technical publications group recently acquired several Mac Pro systems. Our corporate desktop support doesn't have any experience with the systems and asked me for some help as I have a PowerMac at home.

Apple's Mail program appears to be based on KMail or Evolution. It's behviour appears to be a little closer to Evolution. Evolution can be configured to access an Exchange server using IMAP, POP3, or OWA. I configured Mail to use OWA. In this configuration, Mail appears to behave like Outlook.

Finder can be used to access folders on Windows systems once you connect and log into the Windows system or Active Directory. I haven't experienced any problems reading and writing files on a Windows system.

 

[MagicWok]

Going to be sick... I'm getting rumblings that they're recommending HP's instead of the Mac Pro's...

 

[Queso]

Going to be sick... I'm getting rumblings that they're recommending HP's instead of the Mac Pro's...

Head them off with that. Tell your boss that there are workflow elements on OSX that you will be using to automate all sorts of functions and therefore save time, and that these workflows are simply not available on Windows. It's not the Mac hardware you need but the operating system. Then make the point that if IT are so unwilling to learn anything non-Microsoft how much the company must be wasting each year due to more fitting software alternatives being consistently overlooked.

 

[ClassicBean]

Your IT guy is telling you all this bull feces for one reason only:

He fears that once you get a few Macs in there, everyone will see how great they are. Then, the entire company will replace their systems with Macs.

And that means one thing and one thing only for Mr. IT. He'll need to find a new place of employment because everyone's computer will just work the way it should.

That's the fundamental reason why IT guys like PCs and loathe Macs. There are always problems with Windows machines and those problems provide the IT world with a paycheck, or paycheque if you fancy the Canadian spelling.

 

[gnasher729]

The whole not fast bit, yeah, I get that crap here at work. It is ridiculous. But hey, what can you do with the PC fatheads that only know one side!?

I guess you have to point out very politely which applications you are using, and that Macs are the standard for these applications; then inform them what machines you are going to buy, and ask (without any trace of sarcasm) what an equivalent Dell machine would cost.

They will probably come back with the price for a single dual-core processor, because the quad core systems are so expensive compared to the Mac

 

[Queso]

That's the fundamental reason why IT guys like PCs and loathe Macs. There are always problems with Windows machines and those problems provide the IT world with a paycheck, or paycheque if you fancy the Canadian spelling.

Speaking as someone who works quite closely with IT departments I disagree here. It's just plain old laziness. They've invested years in learning the Windows platform and don't want to chuck that out and start back on the lower rung with something new.

I'll also say that whilst Macs are getting a lot better than they used to be, Windows still has the edge when it comes to enterprise desktop management, although this should not be a valid reason for denying Macs in those places where they are easily the better choice. IT are a service department and employed to service the needs of the business. Occasionally they should be reminded of that.

 

[motulist]

Consider all the possibilities. I don't know the details of your situation, so I'm just throwing this out there and it may not even apply, but it's worth mentioning. Do you like your job? I don't think I could ever work in a giant anonymous corporation where major decisions regarding how I accomplish what I need to get done are decided by some unknown person in some unknown location who gets to control what tools I can use without even consulting me for my input or even finding out what it is that I do. And the way they hand down their decree on how I am allowed to do my job is delivered through a couple of line of email from a guy I don't know.

Maybe I'm over dramatizing too much, or maybe this is just an isolated instance and the rest of your job really is friendly and fun. But it all sounds so dehumanizing, like Apple's 1984 superbowl advertisement. If your job is anything like I'm imagining it, you might want to consider a career move.

 

[Sun Baked]

Basically the Mac Pro is a slightly modified Intel 5000 server/workstation chipset machine.

The Mac Pro just adds the Mac I/O to the standard machine -- so it isn't too much different than the Dell/HP machine of the same lineage, just a slightly different I/O setup than a PC.

If the Mac OS is a fiasco for workflow, they can always revert to running Windows on the machine.

If the cost of the Mac Pro is a factor, just drop the ACD displays and buy the Dell LCD displays along with memory from a Mac 3rd party supplier up to the 32GB RAM limit.

---

About the only machine that really deviates from the Standard PC is the XServe, and that's only because Apple decided to use a PCI-Express SATA/SAS controller instead of the one built into the chipset.

 

[SDAVE]

I share files via a fast gigabit network with my Mac Pro and Windows XP box with zero issues. All my drives under Windows are NTFS.

On a serious note, OSX is great for graphic designers. Going the Mac Pro route vs HP workstation route is going to cost the same for your company. Force them to go with OSX, your workers will thabk you for it.

 

[pcorajr]

Your IT guy is telling you all this bull feces for one reason only:

He fears that once you get a few Macs in there, everyone will see how great they are. Then, the entire company will replace their systems with Macs.

And that means one thing and one thing only for Mr. IT. He'll need to find a new place of employment because everyone's computer will just work the way it should.

That's the fundamental reason why IT guys like PCs and loathe Macs. There are always problems with Windows machines and those problems provide the IT world with a paycheck, or paycheque if you fancy the Canadian spelling.

This is the biggest load of crap i have ever read. I am a computer consultant for a company that provides support for both PC and Mac networks. I do as much work for my Mac customers as I do for my windows customers. IT does more than just fix computers you know. We have to support networks, server infrastructures, backup and disaster recovery, you know because Hard drives are hard drives and Drive failure does not care if you are a PC or a MAC.

As it stands right now one of my Mac customers just approved budget for a project that includes the deployment of a SAN's to consolidate all the windows server using Vmware. This project alone plus support services pretty much gives me job security for the next 4 years, by then the iMac's will be reaching their end of life

 

[SDAVE]

Hey pcorajr, since you're an IT specialist, can I ask you a few questions via PM about SANs?

 

[Evangelion]

Your IT guy is telling you all this bull feces for one reason only:

He fears that once you get a few Macs in there, everyone will see how great they are. Then, the entire company will replace their systems with Macs.

And that means one thing and one thing only for Mr. IT. He'll need to find a new place of employment because everyone's computer will just work the way it should..

i'm sorry but just because some company uses only macs does not mean that they can simply fire the it-department. that is a certain one-way ticket to hell. it might work for small companies, but not larger ones.

i am actually "the it department" for a branch that has about 50 users. worldwide we have about 10000 users and we use windows. so i might be able to shine some insight to your situation.

you see the it-department as control-freaks who have no clue. but there are guidelines that just about all it-guys aim for. one of them is simplicity. they want the hardware and software to be as homogenous as possible. non-standard (for the company that is) configurations means more time being tested to make sure they work ok.

as to things like "own backup-servers"... the whole idea makes me cringe. i have run in to setups and requests that are similar to those. and it's usually trouble. often users end up wasting company's money because they buy unsuitable systems. and who will set it up and maintain it? who makes sure that it actually works? who makes sure that the users don't do anything stupid? the users? i'd like to see THAT happening. and the whole thing would be a big unknown for the it-department. and they hate things that they do not know.

ye, in some ways the it-department wants "total control". but thats because they are tasked with making sure that the it-infrastructure actually works. they see the big picture. they can't maintain something that they can't control. and if they can't maintan t, they have no idea of knowing that is it actually working. and i for one would hate knwing that i had a device in my network that i had no idea what it does and that is it actually working.

yes, some individual user might be more efficent using some other system. but that's no excuse to start letting them choose the system of their choice, since then everybody would want to choose their own thing, and the whole thing would be unmanageable.

 

[contoursvt]

To be honest, Entourage is still behind Outlook in terms of exchange integration and usability so the techie dude is right about that part.

Also Outlook OWA doesnt work so well unless you're running IE with ActiveX. This means Safari and Firefox and other browsers will be missing some important functionality on both mac and PC platforms. Try selecting 30 messages at once to delete..pain in the ass unless your on IE. Calendar views are not so great unless you're on IE so ya there are some issues in this respect if you're on OSX. I think exchange 2007 fixes this but 2003 and 2000 will have issues with non IE browsers.

Network backup and management is still stronger in the "windoze" world so from an administration point of view, it will be more of a pain to deal with OSX than windows. Still doesnt mean it cant be done, but it means that the OSX machine may have to be treated differently than the others, causing extra steps and processes for backups or management.

As for Macintosh being more expensive, to be honest, it IS more expensive *IF* you compare it with custom built machines. I dont know about most of you but in our company, we've dropped our brand name workstations in favor of custom built machines which we actually build inhouse. Saves use huge $$ and we've got complete control over the hardware. Building a Core2 Quad system with 8gigs ram and an X1900XT might come in at 1/3rd the price of a dual dualcore Xeon from Apple. Sure it may not be as fast but its 80% the speed for 1/3rd the price. One can take the $$ saved and dump it towards larger monitors, better video, more storage..etc.

As for stability, you need to talk to your IT department. We run things like photoshop, illustrator, after effects, as well as avid related software on assorted boxes (Actually for our avid stuff, we did got for HP XW8400 systems to get support) and we've been rock solid.

Now we do also have a print department which is running G5 2.5's with 4gigs ram but there are only 5 of these boxes and believe me under heavy work loads, they still do quirky things too so its not like any platform is 100% bulletproof.

The only dumbass comment your IT guy made is that Macs are not as fast. Anyway so what you need to do is decide how much exchange integration you guys need in the design department and if there is any way you can integrate your backups with the rest of the organization so that to the IT department, its fairly seamless. You want to make things as painless as possible if you want to win the department over

ARGH!

Just thought I'd vent my anger somewhat.

Here's the story, sorry for the slightly long post:

I work for a company that is using PeeCee's due to their main program switching from Mac & PC, to a PC only variant. Fair enough.

I was recruited last year as a graphic designer for them, we're steadily hiring more designers for some big things coming up. These "black hell dell boxs" we have as I call them, are fine for the programs they use, but they croak at the heavy Photoshop, InDesign and Rendering that I and we do. Such to an extent it slow me up working.

I've talked to my directors, and they've given the go-ahead to get some Mac Pro's for the office, along with some ACD's. Relief!

The next day I get a response from some IT guy that doesn't really raise his head in the office, and I quote:



I was pretty annoyed, and it's pretty obvious from his comments that this so-called IT specialist, is ill-informed and some PC fanboy/Mac hater, take your pick.

To be so blase and say they are not fast is simply a joke. Not fast, in what context? I'll line up a quad-core xeon Mac Pro in CS3 and Rendering, against the crap-box's we have here, and any PC he can line up aside, and we'll see who's smiling at the end of it. It's like trying to win an argument by "saying Macs don't play games"; both short sighted, ignorant, out-of-date and un-educated.

What I don't have much experience on however, is syncing up these Mac Pros (in OSX) to a windoze network. We have terrabytes of data stored on a network spread over 8 or so main network drives. I presume it is no problem, but I'd like to be sure from any of your experiences that it's no hastle to connect up the network we have set up.

Secondly, is there someway to integrate through OSX (without using parralels/bootcamp) with Microsoft Outlook, emails & calendar etc. We will be installing bootcamp, but I'd like to stay in OSX as much as I can. Does Mail in OSX integrate well with Microsoft Outlook?

Many thanks for your help guys.

 

[Queso]

The only dumbass comment your IT guy made is that Macs are not as fast. Anyway so what you need to do is decide how much exchange integration you guys need in the design department and if there is any way you can integrate your backups with the rest of the organization so that to the IT department, its fairly seamless. You want to make things as painless as possible if you want to win the department over

Depends on their enterprise backup solution. Most software has an OSX client available for it. Even if theirs doesn't, the Mac users could also just save their files over Samba to a Windows server. There's still a very high number of IT staff that don't realise Samba is now built into every Mac, so it may be worth mentioning if it hasn't been already.

 

[garethlewis2]

The comment about the Mac being slower is indeed false.

On the flipside, thinking that CS3 is going to magically move faster on a Mac is silly. It is still a 32bit app. It is still tied to only using 3.2 gigs of Ram on Windows and only 2gigs of Ram on OS X. The 3.2gigs only occurs if you run windows in 64 bit mode or with a startup flag telling it to give apps more than 3 gigs.

Even if you got the 8 core version of the Mac Pro, it would not run faster than the current quad Mac Pro. CS3 just isn't optimised for that many cores.

You should get a Mac Pro in from Apples business division for testing. Run the tests that you would on Dell and compare the speeds. CS3 on Mac and CS3 on Windows is identical code. Only the GUI is different. The Xeons on the Mac Pro may edge the performance in its favour. If the Dells are only using standard Core2 Extreme chips, then the extra cache of the Xeons will help. And if you are using a local disk for scratch space, you will somehow need to install the raided Rapter 10,000 RPM disks otherwise any performance is going to chocked by IO.

 

[^squirrel^]

Well i can safely say, that the publishing firm i do the I.T for doesn't have any issues with mixed platform!

We have Windows Share points that the macs connect to and Mac share points that windows connect to.

As far as Office Calendars goes..... The new Office 2007 can access webdav calendars and guess what.....so can iCal. TO be honest with you, i'm not sure of any way to connect iCal to Office's calendar. Best bet is to go down the Webdav route. It's pretty clear that your I.T guy hasn't done his research and is just blabbing rubbish because he can't support mac platform. But if you didn't want to change your calendar DB which is understandable Mail will have no issues accessing the exchange server.

Go get your mac's you'll be 100 times better off and no doubt it'll need the minimum amount of support!

(Mac's not faster than pc's made me chuckle)

I'm sure us lot here will help you out if you had any questions.

All the best

Darren