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Guys, calm down about Intel, keep buying PowerPC Macs.
- Thread starter GFLPraxis
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I posted this elsewhere, but its worth another read ;-)
Currently I am running a Dual 533 with Panther.
I was planning to buy a Dual 2.3, just waiting to see what the Keynote had to say. Now I am planning to buy a Dual 2.0 instead, spend less now in the expectation of upgrading in 3 years instead of 4-5, mainly because the extra speed increase by then might make me keen to upgrade again.
I fully expect that I will still be able to run up to date versions of most software from most Third Party developers on this new Dual 2.0 PPC mac in 4 years or even 6, as most will make FAT binaries just like last time (68k -> PPC), and don't forget, for every new x86 mac sold in the next two years there are hundreds of PPC Macs still in existence that software developers will want to sell upgrades and new applications to. It will take quite a few years for all those installed PPC machines to become irrelevant as potential upgrade dollars to the software firms, far longer than a typical Mac upgrade cycle of say 4 years.
So for a long time to come, most software sold or upgraded will be to people with PPC machines, not x86. I expect PPC versions of software will remain the key income producer for software houses for about the next 5 years. Are they simply going to walk away from this money?
The only likely inconvenience is that some NEW software from startup or small software firms will arrive (eventually) that only runs on x86, as happened quite abruptly with the shift to OSX vs OS9. Mostly these will be small scale applications and utilities as we saw with the change to OSX.
But the larger software firms will remain solidly supportive of PPC. Even now, many, many apps are still Carbon and run on OS9 as well, and it all goes to show that noone is really going to be left behind until their gear is truly not up to running the software.
Currently I am running a Dual 533 with Panther.
I was planning to buy a Dual 2.3, just waiting to see what the Keynote had to say. Now I am planning to buy a Dual 2.0 instead, spend less now in the expectation of upgrading in 3 years instead of 4-5, mainly because the extra speed increase by then might make me keen to upgrade again.
I fully expect that I will still be able to run up to date versions of most software from most Third Party developers on this new Dual 2.0 PPC mac in 4 years or even 6, as most will make FAT binaries just like last time (68k -> PPC), and don't forget, for every new x86 mac sold in the next two years there are hundreds of PPC Macs still in existence that software developers will want to sell upgrades and new applications to. It will take quite a few years for all those installed PPC machines to become irrelevant as potential upgrade dollars to the software firms, far longer than a typical Mac upgrade cycle of say 4 years.
So for a long time to come, most software sold or upgraded will be to people with PPC machines, not x86. I expect PPC versions of software will remain the key income producer for software houses for about the next 5 years. Are they simply going to walk away from this money?
The only likely inconvenience is that some NEW software from startup or small software firms will arrive (eventually) that only runs on x86, as happened quite abruptly with the shift to OSX vs OS9. Mostly these will be small scale applications and utilities as we saw with the change to OSX.
But the larger software firms will remain solidly supportive of PPC. Even now, many, many apps are still Carbon and run on OS9 as well, and it all goes to show that noone is really going to be left behind until their gear is truly not up to running the software.
Like I said in another post, didn't Microsoft mention some benefits of Office for the x86 macs such as better Exchange support due to the processor?
It's little things like that that will get you, or a way better version of Virtual PC, etc.
It's little things like that that will get you, or a way better version of Virtual PC, etc.
I initially freaked. I accepted delivery of a PM dual 2.0 last week. Love the machine but...I called apple seeing about a return and a refund (in a moment of panic). I'm still considering sending it back and taking a 10% hit for restocking, but I'm only considering it now. I'm leanning towards keeping the machine since it appears that it will be supported for at least 3 or 4 more years, then it will be time to upgrade anyway. I think I was caught up in the mass hysteria on the boards "the sky is falling, the sky is falling". Naw it's just a processor, I mean really, I come from the pc world, over there it's always an argument of AMD vs Intel, but they both run windows. So what if it's Intel, it's still not going to be a windows machine, who knows, maybe this will be a shot in the arm for Apple when it's over and the smoke clears, it looks like Longhorn is going to be delayed again and from what I've read it's not going to be so revolutionary after all, and by that time OSX will have had another major release. Made up my mind typing this, I'm keeping the machine, I've been screwed far worse by Dell and Microsoft, I have faith Apple will take care of me for 3 more years.
ZildjianKX said:
Actually, the Mac Business Unit manager Roz Ho stated that MS would be releasing improvements to Office (including Entourage) and a new Messenger client. Additionally, going forward they will fully support Universal binaries.
jeffgtr said:
I had the exact same feelings today. Having switched only 3 weeks ago, I was very upset. Then, suddenly, a calm sort of came over me. I love my new 2.3 G5, and frankly, it's even more computer than I need right now. Reading about the fat binaries, and everything else, I'm realizing I made the right decision. Figuring in 3-4 years, I'll be wanting a new machine anyway, this might just work out perfectly. Heck, by that time, we'll probably be on the 2nd generation Mac\Intel machines, and all the initial bugs\problems whatever will be worked out.
Whew, I actually feel pretty good right now, LOL.
Get ready everybody, don't you see Steve's steppin' up?
Gone are the Blue Jeans and NB running shoes.
Homey's wearing slacks & dress shoes ---
Granted, he's still rocking the black long sleeve shirt ---
++++++++++++++++++++
Gone are the Blue Jeans and NB running shoes.
Homey's wearing slacks & dress shoes ---
Granted, he's still rocking the black long sleeve shirt ---
++++++++++++++++++++
Bob Marley said:
At least a thread with some sane and intelligent posts. I am getting really tired of all the paranoia and misinformation in other threads. Stuff like:
"Shall I get a new Mac now or wait 2 years for an Intel Mac?"
"My mac suddenly lost all of it's value!!!"
"Will all my programs stop running when the MacTel computers start selling?"
"Don't buy a new Mac now, wait a year for the Intel Macs, they will be faster!"
"No new software will be developed for PPC Macs from today!"
"Shall I get a new Mac now or wait 2 years for an Intel Mac?"
"My mac suddenly lost all of it's value!!!"
"Will all my programs stop running when the MacTel computers start selling?"
"Don't buy a new Mac now, wait a year for the Intel Macs, they will be faster!"
"No new software will be developed for PPC Macs from today!"
quick question...I know they will continue to release software that supports both PPC and intel, but what about dual CPU optimization? Are developers really going to drop time into optimizing an app. to run on a dual g5 machine when they know this massive shift is coming? Don't know the answer to this...maybe someone can comment?
(just bought a dual 2.5, haven't taken delivery yet, and am considering cancelling and building an AMD 64 machine)..
(just bought a dual 2.5, haven't taken delivery yet, and am considering cancelling and building an AMD 64 machine)..
PCM said:
but what will you run on that AMD based machine? linux?
the intel roadmap includes plenty of dualcore processors so coding for duals is still gonna be a high priority for devlopers. if you needed the dual g5 before i don't understand why you'd want to change your mind.
to me they've gone with intel to prevent the powerbooks getting even more left behind. the desktop machines plenty fast enough.
nah, i'd run XP with no internet (for audio production) and keep my powerbook for everyday tasks. The AMD machines are just smoking the g5's in pro tools.emotion said:
I am just worried about the logevity of the machine, but i watched the keynote and feel slightly comforted. I also got the machine for 1700 so even if i do have to upgrade in 2007-8, not like i dropped 3 grand.
B-52 Macer said:
honestly that still is a bit of a worry for me, reason being the person that wants to buy my laptop isn't that smart with computer stuff, so if he hears that they are changing chips he wont buy it from me no matter what i say about it. so i know that means my mac has lost value, but that can be a good thing for me, when i get an iBook and a PM which i was planning on getting around 06-07, so i will have 3 computers
GFLPraxis said:
"Every single Mac application made after this date, June 6th, will have fat binaries" isn't quite correct. First of all, not all applications are still in active development, and for old shareware programs the developer may only need to spend a few days updating the software to compile as fat binary, but this might be more time than he cares to at this point.
I'm thinking about MT-Newswatcher as a I write this...but there are others no doubt. Especially others who won't have access/can't afford an x86 development kit until they replace their own personal computer with one.
Also, at some point developers will no longer want to create fat binaries. My concern is how far out will that happen? Two to three years after the completion of the transition? That might be too soon for people who like to own a computer for five years. (I certainly do.)
The problem is that we don't know anything about Transitive. We've heard about them on and off for a few years now, but we really know nothing about how it works and AFAIK we haven't seen any significant applications of their technology. I still feel like its vaporware, even if Apple has got it running in the labs, because in the several years that Transitive has been around I can't think of ONE high-profile client!
PCM said:
yeah fair enough. for Ableton Live amd machines are the fastest (tho no dual support in Live).
personally macosx is worth losing a few cycles over but i don't put a huge demand on my machine compared to some.
javiercr said:
this isn't true at all. multiple processors are handled well by macosx and quite a few applications.
The first part is inaccurate. If you watched the keynote, you can chose w/XCode 2.1 to build for PPC, x86 or both. Err, didn't Jobs' just release XCode 2.1 w/this capability on Monday?GFLPraxis said:
There are plenty of apps out there which are NOT compiled using Xcode. How would you ship a fat binary for that has bits for both x86 and PPC w/o using Xcode 2.1? Switching compilers esp. from a completely different vendor for a large app can be daunting. If you'd like to read about moving from Codewarrior to Xcode, see http://developer.apple.com/document...e/migration_overview/chapter_1_section_1.html.
Just because a program compiles doesn't mean it automatically works right either. You do have to do some testing, esp. on a new version of a compiler, and a a totally new platform (Apple Dev Kit) on a unfinished version of OS 10.4.1. Undoubtedly, the OS will be a more of a moving target as I'm sure there will be bugs to fix that Apple knows about, will find and that ISVs/IHVs report. There clearly couldn't be as many eyes looking at x86 OS X as there are PPC OS X.
It seems rather impossible for those outside Apple to do comprehensive testing on x86 if the Dev Kit machines will ship in 2 weeks.
BTW, if you're curious to read about Universal Binaries see http://developer.apple.com/documentation/MacOSX/Conceptual/universal_binary/universal_binary.pdf.
One more thing, software companies have schedules and depending on where they are in their project, they may not be able to drop everything, recompile w/Xcode 2.1 or migrate to Xcode, test, fix bugs, test, etc. even if they had the dev kits now. It would also be mighty foolish to start releasing Universal Binaries starting June 6th, 2005 they public has NO machines that can run the x86 portion. It'd only make sense shortly before MacTels ship and OS 10.4.x for MacTel is considered golden.
At first I panicked about the whoole thing too, as I was going to get an iBook or Powerbook sometime in July or August I think. It's nice to hear that the hardware will not be obsolete when I purchase my machine.
I hear different time frames on when all the Mac machines will make the switch to Intel chips. Does anyone know when it is more than likely going to happen, or what date Jobs himself has said?
I hear different time frames on when all the Mac machines will make the switch to Intel chips. Does anyone know when it is more than likely going to happen, or what date Jobs himself has said?
I don't know if any other dates have been announced other than what Jobs stated at the WWDC keynote. Go to http://www.apple.com/quicktime/qtv/wwdc05/ to watch it. He started talking about the transition at ~21 minute mark.MUCKYFINGERS said:
Around 25 minute mark, Jobs states that they will be introducing Intel based Macs starting next year and by this time next year, June 06 (WWDC again), they plan to be shipping Intel based Macs. By June 07, they expect the transition to be mostly complete and will be complete by end of 07.
I know that I'm still going to buy one because I simply can't wait until next year to buy a powerbook
CanadaRAM said:
Rosetta won't run Mac Intel-only binaries on the PPCs, however. By 2007 the PPC Macs will be nearly worthless. So suggesting that people keep buying PPC Macs is not a very good suggestion unless you caveat it with "... as long as you don't mind them being nearly worthless in two years or less."
(edit) And this is not paranoia and misinformation. Go back and see how long people continued delivering new apps for 68K when the PPC Macs came out. It wasn't long at all.
(another edit) Does XCode 2.1 on PPC create x86 binaries too?
I'd skip the long wait if decides to revise the ibook... still waiting! I totally agree that I'd rather invest in a ppc mac instead of a intel mac during the first couple of years, it might be a bit shaky. though, this is apple we're speaking of so they'll probably pull it off with many waves.3lions said:same here, unless anyone changes my mind before next week
my initial shock and feeling of betrayal has worn of as i more fully understand the choices the a steve had at hand, ibm just didn't seem to be dedicated enough, but i'm not so surprised at the reactions in the mac community just because we spent so much time beating up on intel, ms, etc.. now all of sudden we are being asked to let the wolf in the house.
i must admit that watching the wwdc quicktime feed helped, steve is an amazing business man.