Hack Pro or Mac Pro?

[Giuly]

Get i7-930 and overclock it to ~3.5GHz. That you cannot do with Mac Pro. Add decent CPU cooler and it will be dead silent and cool. With a PC mobo you have more choices, e.g. more SATA ports, PCI/PCIe slots etc

If they OC that high, that saves you about $300. So at least my calculation was right. Most MoBos out there have 8xSATA 3GBit/s, so 2 more than the MP. A 4 port SATA 3GBit/s RAID card is however $100, not $699 as Apple wants us to believe - let alone SAS, InfiniBand and FibreChannel. 80% of the users just want simple SATA 3/6Bit/s hardware RAID0/1/5. For the rest 20% suites the $699 card.

You need Xeon in order to use ECC RAM although most people are fine with non-ECC

The only Mac which needs ECC RAM is the Big Mac. However I was rather refering to DDR3-2000 and such stuff, however MP's EFI may set them to DDR3-1333 or DDR3-1600.

Core 2 Quads aren't really cheaper, they start from 150$ in NewEgg (2.5GHz). You can build iX rig for about the same $. There is no reason to get other than the low-end i7 because you can overclock it. If you bought used parts, C2Q would end up being cheaper but iX is still worth it. A quick calculation shows me that i7 930/860 rig would cost around 1000$, depending on the components you get

Again, I diff'd against the i7-970. I calculated the same $150 for the C2Q, but people more likely use $40 socket 775 (or even $30 if equipped with DDR2) motherboards than $200 1366 ones, which makes the whole system cheaper.

Phenom II x6s aren't that great. In fact, i7s beat them in most benches as they have Hyper-Threading. I wouldn't get AMD Hack as the support is worse (they have different chipsets) and I have no idea how AMDs perform under OS X

Again, $550 i7-970 vs. 300$ Phenom II X6 1050T. Overclocked to 3.5GHz it's - at least - comparable, because it has 6 full-functional cores rather then 4 real ones and 4 HTT'ed ones. Also, regarding to the performance, the X6 identifies itself as HT capable and benefits from HT enhanced code.
I had a Athlon64 3400+ (2.4GHz) Hackintosh with Leopard, and it performed A) faster then on Windows 7 and B) as fast as on Linux, so at least these run pretty full-speed on Mac OS X, even with emulated SSE3. I don't think this would be much different with the Phenom II's.
The 7xx chipsets ran fine last time I checked, however I don't know about new 8xx series. The drivers are basically copied from FreeBSD, so you could say they are fully supported. Mac OS X = Darwin = BSD, so there is not that much work to fully port such things. Rewriting the drivers from scratch is not needed and there wouldn't even be much Hackintoshes out there, if people had to. It's just changing it's interface from being baked inside the monolithic FreeBSD kernel to being a kext and talk to the XNU.

 

[Sean Dempsey]

Only on Macrumors is upgrading from a G5 to ANY Mac Pro "not good enough."

 

[Hellhammer]

If they OC that high, that saves you about $300. So at least my calculation was right. Most MoBos out there have 8xSATA 3GBit/s, so 2 more than the MP. A 4 port SATA 3GBit/s RAID card is however $100, not $699 as Apple wants us to believe - let alone SAS, InfiniBand and FibreChannel. 80% of the users just want simple SATA 3/6Bit/s hardware RAID0/1/5. For the rest 20% suites the $699 card.

Yeah, what I've read it should go easily over 3GHz with decent cooling. 930 OCs much better than 920. i7-860 should OC even better, seen some people having it @4GHz

Again, I used the i7-970, but I also calculated $150 for the C2Q, and people more likely use $50 socket 775 motherboards than $200 1366 ones, which makes the whole system cheaper.

Yeah, but i7 is faster and IMO worth the difference. 1156 boards are cheaper too. C2Q isn't a bad option but P55 or X58 setup isn't significantly more expensive, at least it's better

Again, $550 i7-970 vs. 300$ Phenom II X6 1050T. Overclocked to 3.5GHz it's - at least - comparable, because it has 6 full-functional cores rather then 4 real ones and 4 HTT'ed ones. Also, regarding to the performance, the X6 identifies itself as HT capable and benefits from HT enhanced code.
I had a Athlon64 3400+ (2.4GHz) Hackintosh with Leopard, and it performed A) faster then on Windows 7 and B) as fast as on Linux, so at least these run pretty full-speed on Mac OS X, even with emulated SSE3. I don't think this would be much different with the Phenom II's.
The 7xx chipsets ran fine last time I checked, however I don't know about new 8xx series. The drivers are basically copied from FreeBSD, so you could say they are fully supported. Mac OS X = Darwin = BSD, so there is not that much work to fully port such things. Rewriting the drivers from scratch is not needed and there wouldn't even be much Hackintoshes out there, if people had to.

Benchmarks I've seen show that i7s are quite similar in terms of performance as Phenom x6s are. Both are great options though, no huge difference in cost either (i7-930/860). Hmm, didn't know AMDs work that well, thanks for clarifying.

Only on Macrumors is upgrading from a G5 to ANY Mac Pro "not good enough."

It's completely normal that people want the biggest bang for their buck.

 

[Mackilroy]

Having built several Hackintoshes myself--my main desktop has been a Hackintosh of some sort for the last two years--I can tell you that it's never as straightforward as it might seem. Getting the system up and running is no picnic. There are no clear instructions on how to use all of the tools together to even get the system to boot OS X, and when something doesn't work correctly, you're left with little more than a cryptic error message, or just a consistent hang. Once you do get it working, you're going to have to learn about kexts, graphics strings, DSDT files, and so on just to get each individual component working. Software Update? Yeah, good luck with that. It might work, but it's just as likely to break something in some unexpected way. Also, there are weird bugs that will just surface randomly, even after you have everything ostensibly working. Some of these will be merely annoying (e.g., the system doesn't shut down properly after waking up from sleep) and some will be real hair-tearers to diagnose and fix, if it's even possible to fix them (e.g., ripping a DVD from a SATA drive causes random kernel panics, but only if you have more than 4GB of RAM installed).

Eventually, though, you'll most likely end up with one of two outcomes: a flakey computer that will give you no end of trouble on a daily basis until it ultimately dies in a spectacular way, taking part of your data with it; or a system that's reliable and stable, but somewhat fragile in that if you screw with it too much in terms of changing the hardware or mucking with the OS, something is more likely than not to stop working properly. I've built both kinds; in fact, my current hardware was previously the former under 10.5, but with the upgrade to 10.6.2 it has become rock solid. Even then, updating to 10.6.3 caused my sound card to stop working. I managed to fix it without too much trouble after searching through the incredibly helpful forums at insanelymac.com, but it was still an extra hassle that would not have been an issue on a real Mac.

There are absolutely clear instructions. Ever heard of Kakewalk or iBoot? I've not once messed with kexts, graphics strings, or my DSDT to get anything working. You can run Software Update without fear on everything except point updates, but even those are hardly insurmountable.

My system is quite reliable and stable (just as stable as my Mac Pro), but I mess around with it constantly. The only real problem I've ever had with my hack was the same one I would've had on a real Mac Pro, so I'm not too worried about that.

Utter rubbish.

That is all.

Agreed.

 

[Cave Man]

Again, I diff'd against the i7-970. I calculated the same $150 for the C2Q, but people more likely use $40 socket 775 (or even $30 if equipped with DDR2) motherboards than $200 1366 ones, which makes the whole system cheaper.

Core 2 processors cannot do hyperthreading. All i7 processors do.

 

[tomscott1988]

waste of time

I'm currently on a Dual 2.3 G5 Power Mac and I'm finally ready to purchase a new computer for my video / animation / design needs. Primary uses for the machine will be 3d, compositing, and film editing with FCP.

I'm not sure if I should build myself a hack pro now, or wait and see what apple will be offering when / if the next Mac Pro's come out. Not absolutely life or death that I get a machine asap, but I'll need one sooner than later.

I don't really have any experience building a hackintosh, but I used to build my own PC's before I jumped over to the mac side, so that's not unfamiliar territory for me. I'm actually curious as to the pros/cons of either a hack pro or a mac pro. Any advice?

If you are using the mac for work purposes, its a waste of time. It wont be reliable, constant maintenance every update. If you enjoy messing with comps do it but for a work based machine you need something you can rely on.

 

[Mackilroy]

If you are using the mac for work purposes, its a waste of time. It wont be reliable, constant maintenance every update. If you enjoy messing with comps do it but for a work based machine you need something you can rely on.

Unless you've actually used a hackintosh for a while, you can't honestly say it won't be reliable or that it will need constant maintenance.

 

[Cave Man]

If you are using the mac for work purposes, its a waste of time. It wont be reliable, constant maintenance every update.

This just isn't true, especially with the tonymacx86 method.

 

[Rankrotten]

I'm an imaging professional in my day job and have upgraded from a 2006 Mac Pro dual 3.0GHz to an i7 X58 self build. This is now my main workstation running Photoshop CS5, Photo Mechanic, Apple Aperture, Transmit, Final Cut, Time Machine and a myriad of third party plugins with zero problems. It is, in every respect, better than the Mac Pro I was using before.

Apple treated the original Mac Pro 1,1 users with contempt by refusing to enable x64 firmware compatibility and blocking upgrade paths with graphics cards, instead forcing users who wished to upgrade to buy a newer Mac Pro model instead.

I have been using each iteration of Apple desktop and laptop since my first Quadra 650AV and Powerbook 180c in 1993 so believe me, Apple have done very well from me as a customer.

 

[steviem]

Rankrotten, how is it running with these applications?

I'm on a hackintosh with what is now a pretty old xeon (3050 dual core) and aperture has trouble sometimes rendering thumbnails.

Thanks,

 

[Cave Man]

I'm on a hackintosh with what is now a pretty old xeon (3050 dual core) and aperture has trouble sometimes rendering thumbnails.

What's your graphics chip and how much vRAM do you have?

 

[Rankrotten]

Rankrotten, how is it running with these applications?

I'm on a hackintosh with what is now a pretty old xeon (3050 dual core) and aperture has trouble sometimes rendering thumbnails.

Thanks,

No problems with any applications, I installed everything from scratch and resisted the temptation to migrate from my Mac Pro. Graphics card is a sapphire 4870 1GB which works 100% with the OS X drivers.

I can hot swap external eSATA drives which is very useful with disks full of different Aperture libraries. Apple's hardware can't hot swap sata drives but it works fine on my system
😎

 

[propower]

I have seen a couple of folks get this right.....

I have built two hack pros (Core 2 quad and i7). Both worked fantastic (even with ProTools HD cards!)...... mostly...... But the rub is unless you put in a LOT of time (DSDT, EFI strings etc) it will not work 100%. Example..... mirrored monitors. For me a key mac feature, in hack land, impossible as fr as I know. Example: Ethernet..... many high end plug ins depend on ethernet id for authorization. On a hack this is tricky and very hardware specific. Example: My new Euphonix MC Control..... can not get it recognized..... on macbook no problem..... Hack.... nope.... NOW.... If I invest 10 to 100 hours I can probably make it work........ If all I ran was software (Adobe CS4 etc).... never had a problem..... But let's say I want to do AirDisplay for my ipad..... ughhh.... miserable again..... and that is the key.......... if you like new stuff to work with your machine, with a mac pro, no problem, with a hack, maybe yes but then maybe NO and now it is you who has to fix it......

Now here is what I have learned over two years of doing this...... Save now, lose later or Pay now, save later.......

I can build a very nice i7 hack for lets say $1250. I could buy a 2.66 Nehalem quad fo about 2X $2500. Now we all know we can overclock the i7 to be much faster than the MacPro but I contend that for 99% of users, this speed delta is not really the deal breaker. On the day I finish the i7 I would be lucky to sell the machine for ~$800. A year later? $600 Two years $400, Three years less....... you get the idea. Now a four year old MacPro 2.66 quad is still going for $1200 to $1400! Really no $$ savings in the long run and the time investment is really quite large for the power user.......

YMMV.......

 

[Rankrotten]

Some power users may enjoy the learning curve

 

[Mackilroy]

I have built two hack pros (Core 2 quad and i7). Both worked fantastic (even with ProTools HD cards!)...... mostly...... But the rub is unless you put in a LOT of time (DSDT, EFI strings etc) it will not work 100%. Example..... mirrored monitors. For me a key mac feature, in hack land, impossible as fr as I know. Example: Ethernet..... many high end plug ins depend on ethernet id for authorization. On a hack this is tricky and very hardware specific.

I'm not sure about mirrored monitors (never used it, though I have run dual monitors with my hack) but Ethernet? Not sure why you think it's tricky, I've not had an issue.

And yes, the learning curve is fun.

 

[Tutor]

Clean up

 

[propower]

I'm not sure about mirrored monitors (never used it, though I have run dual monitors with my hack) but Ethernet? Not sure why you think it's tricky, I've not had an issue.

Yes, Ethernet for internet access has been rock solid all along. The rub is that some high end audio programs need to use the details of the Ethernet ID (card ID?) to do authorization. That takes a bit of work... did that.... then some new Ethernet based control surfaces put a new twist on what they are looking for in the Network implementation.... that one has me stumped now..... then there are lots of posts about Bonjour specific issues, screen sharing, Remote access... etc....

Point is, normal functions, rock solid and no issues. But now I am seriously networking devices (controllers, ipads, remote servers and other computers etc) and need not only the latest OS updates but every function to work easily. This is the "tipping point" for me and hacks.

I actually enjoy the learning (EE geek by nature), but it takes real work to get good at this and every update, every hardware change will be your next test.

My 2 cents......

 

[Aviators]

I'd like to add to this as someone who's lurked on here for 7 months desperately awaiting a 2010 mac pro release.

Please note the following:

-I had $3000 in apple gift cards that were a xmas present from a client
-On top of that cost wasn't an issue- HOWEVER I was unwilling to spend $4500 on 18+ month old technology like many of you.
-The computer was for business purposes and needed to be 'stable'
-However I also have a 2.4ghz 2008 Imac and a 2.4ghz 2008 Macbook that, while slow, could get me by for a few days in a pinch down the road of something went wrong.


I grew more and more upset like many of you on here, and had sworn against a 'hack pro' mainly for the same reasons as most (though the 'ILLEGAL HARMZ AAPL!11" comment above is just hysterical)

Finally after stumbling onto Tonymacx86's iboot + multibeast install method I decided to take the plunge as I understood this.

Aside from one CRITICAL error of using first a samsung optical drive instead of a Sony Optiarc or a Pioneer which are both compatible and this taking me 5 days to troubleshoot (had I realized this during the initial build I would've simply bought a Sony, as I now have in the system for a whopping $19.99 which works flawlessly) the build/install was very easy for anyone who's built machines and can follow any sorts of directions.


My hardware includes:

-Coolermaster 690 II Case
-i7 860 Cpu
-Gigabyte P55A-UD4P motherboard
-BFG NVIDIA GTX 260 "OC Maxcore" GPU
-M-audio fast track pro (I mention because this took any issues/work of getting onboard sound to work out of the equation - this was moved over from the imac setup)
-8gb OCZ Gold 1600mhz ram
-(1) Intel X25-M 80gig SSD for OSX OS/Applications
-(2) Seagate Barracuda 32mb cache 7200rpm drives partitioned with -500/500gigs on each drive in a software raid 0 array as scratch disks for -1TB for OSX and 1TB for Win7 (to be installed on another 80 gig X25-M this week)
Corsair HX750 Modular Power Supply
-Targus ABC10 Mini USB Bluetooth Dongle
-Magic Mouse
-Apple Alum. wired full keyboard
-Sony Optiarc Dual Layer DVDR Drive
-Zalman CNPS 10x Performa CPU Cooler

(en-route)

30" Cinema Display snagged for $1,299 from the refurb shop (Currently running a 22" Samsung along with output to a 32" Samsung HDTV in 1080p off the card. Zero issues)
Western Digital Studio II External eSATA drive which will be run in Raid 1 for files.


Total cost of the build excluding the external WD HD and the 30" Cinema display was right around $1,700

Performance so far (after figuring out the optical drive woes which caused kernel panics) is rock solid. CPU temperatures sit at 32 degrees C at idle, peaking at 40 degrees under load.

Geekbench performance is, at completely stock clock speeds is shown below.

All in all this will tie me over until a new mac pro that's actually worth picking up releases. Photoshop/After effects snap open with the SSD, sleep works fine, and the only thing that I've noticed that I *CAN'T* do is wake from sleep via the bluetooth magic mouse. So I have to hit a key on the keyboard.

I'll live.

 

[GadgetAddict]

I would absolutely looooove to have a Mac Pro. But they are so ridiculously expensive that I can't afford and even if I did I would not be able to justify the cost for my budget.

So I got an HP box from eBay with $300, put on a GeForce graphics card because intel graphics are not supported and then followed tonymacx86.com. The whole set up was a breeze and the system works perfectly with 10.6.4.

For all those saying this hurts apple I disagree. I am an Apple fanatic and buy all their products that I can afford. Money is short now but if things go well I can easily imagine myself getting all the high end Apple products in the future. If I were not an Apple fan I would have never built this hackintosh. Would've just kept it with Win 7.

If you have the mula go for Mac Pro, if you don't the hack route won't disappoint..

 

[flatfoot]

I'd like to add to this as someone who's lurked on here for 7 months desperately awaiting a 2010 mac pro release.

Please note the following:

-I had $3000 in apple gift cards that were a xmas present from a client
-On top of that cost wasn't an issue- HOWEVER I was unwilling to spend $4500 on 18+ month old technology like many of you.
-The computer was for business purposes and needed to be 'stable'
-However I also have a 2.4ghz 2008 Imac and a 2.4ghz 2008 Macbook that, while slow, could get me by for a few days in a pinch down the road of something went wrong.


I grew more and more upset like many of you on here, and had sworn against a 'hack pro' mainly for the same reasons as most (though the 'ILLEGAL HARMZ AAPL!11" comment above is just hysterical)

Finally after stumbling onto Tonymacx86's iboot + multibeast install method I decided to take the plunge as I understood this.

Aside from one CRITICAL error of using first a samsung optical drive instead of a Sony Optiarc or a Pioneer which are both compatible and this taking me 5 days to troubleshoot (had I realized this during the initial build I would've simply bought a Sony, as I now have in the system for a whopping $19.99 which works flawlessly) the build/install was very easy for anyone who's built machines and can follow any sorts of directions.


My hardware includes:

-Coolermaster 690 II Case
-i7 860 Cpu
-Gigabyte P55A-UD4P motherboard
-BFG NVIDIA GTX 260 "OC Maxcore" GPU
-M-audio fast track pro (I mention because this took any issues/work of getting onboard sound to work out of the equation - this was moved over from the imac setup)
-8gb OCZ Gold 1600mhz ram
-(1) Intel X25-M 80gig SSD for OSX OS/Applications
-(2) Seagate Barracuda 32mb cache 7200rpm drives partitioned with -500/500gigs on each drive in a software raid 0 array as scratch disks for -1TB for OSX and 1TB for Win7 (to be installed on another 80 gig X25-M this week)
Corsair HX750 Modular Power Supply
-Targus ABC10 Mini USB Bluetooth Dongle
-Magic Mouse
-Apple Alum. wired full keyboard
-Sony Optiarc Dual Layer DVDR Drive
-Zalman CNPS 10x Performa CPU Cooler

(en-route)

30" Cinema Display snagged for $1,299 from the refurb shop (Currently running a 22" Samsung along with output to a 32" Samsung HDTV in 1080p off the card. Zero issues)
Western Digital Studio II External eSATA drive which will be run in Raid 1 for files.


Total cost of the build excluding the external WD HD and the 30" Cinema display was right around $1,700

Performance so far (after figuring out the optical drive woes which caused kernel panics) is rock solid. CPU temperatures sit at 32 degrees C at idle, peaking at 40 degrees under load.

Geekbench performance is, at completely stock clock speeds is shown below.

All in all this will tie me over until a new mac pro that's actually worth picking up releases. Photoshop/After effects snap open with the SSD, sleep works fine, and the only thing that I've noticed that I *CAN'T* do is wake from sleep via the bluetooth magic mouse. So I have to hit a key on the keyboard.

I'll live.

Nice rig! But you most definitely have to overclock your i7 just slightly. I have my i5-750 running at 3.2GHz with Turbo Boost enabled and I'm at 9238. And it's not just numbers; it also feels much faster than the stock 2.66GHz.

You did use Geekbench 64-bit, didn't you?

 

[propower]

Total cost of the build excluding the external WD HD and the 30" Cinema display was right around $1,700

Absolutely correct but you are ignoring the used market as compared to hacking........ I just picked up a 2.93 Quad/12G ram/3TB/Radeon etc with 2 years apple care for $2650 locally..... Yes an extra $1K...... worth it? ..... to me..... oh yeah.......

-Lee

 

[parakiet]

Nope, at least P55 and X58, which are too separate kinds.

well the x58 info is very scarce over there, searching as we speak

 

[flatfoot]

well the x58 info is very scarce over there, searching as we speak

Just find one of the guys who did it. Most of them are very kind. 😉

 

[TheStrudel]

If you feel like paying for a Mac Pro, get the Mac Pro. If you don't feel like paying for it and would rather put a lot of time into it to get something with more hardware customization, build your hackintosh.

Your decisions represents two different philosophies as they apply to computers:

Tinkering (Cheaper, customizable, more prone to issues but more flexible)

Vendor-made turnkey systems (More expensive, purpose designed, more stable, less customizable and flexible)

Decide which you want more, and how much your time is worth (As the hackintosh will demand more time in construction and in upkeep).

Neither philosophy is more or less valid than the other. Different people have different needs.

, however, is interested in serving you what they think you need, which may not be what you actually need.

Which is why there is a hackintosh community.

 

[DoFoT9]

If you are using the mac for work purposes, its a waste of time. It wont be reliable, constant maintenance every update. If you enjoy messing with comps do it but for a work based machine you need something you can rely on.

whilst earlier in the thread i did say not to use a hackintosh for working purposes (which i stand by), i do disagree with your statement that the hack will not be reliable or need constant maintenance.

done properly, there are no differences between a Mac and a Hack. they work identically the same - updating the machine is IDENTICAL to an actual Mac (go to software updater and run it!).

my hackintosh is a good 2 years old and hasnt had one hiccup once i installed everything. turn it on and away it goes. 🙂