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Krizoitz

macrumors 68000
Apr 26, 2003
1,723
2,062
Tokyo, Japan
It‘s a very double-edged sword to say the least.

While Microsoft seems to have done a decent job from a technological point, the reality is - and will prove to be for this services - that web apps for gaming are second-class citizens in the eco system. And Apple are again leveraging their power of being the App Store operator in an anticompetitive way to give their own service an edge over the competition for gaming subscription services.

Another way to look at it: How is this different from Netflix? Isn’t it basically just a video stream with some additional input controls? (and rather than only different audio languages and subtitles, a bit more dynamically generated video content?)

So why is Netflix allowed their own app in the store (that does allow for sign-up and subscriptions on non-Apple devices) and Microsoft isn‘t?

The reason seems obvious: Netflix has a dominant market position in online video streaming that that Apple can‘t (aren‘t willing to) ignore. And Apple themselves doesn‘t have a great position in streaming video on iOS.

Whereas they do control the market for gaming on iOS through they App Store walled garden - and try to shut down competition from game streaming services.
Because video and video games are entirely different categories of things?
Because Apple has decided when it comes to video games on the iPhone each one needs to be individually reviewed and approved and allowing this service on the iPhone wouldn’t follow that model?
Because you don’t see Microsoft bending over backwards to offer Apples (or Sony’s, or Nintendos) competing services on the Xbox?

It’s not anti-competitive to not give your competitors an advantage against you, especially when they are certainly not returning the favor.
Microsoft has no inherent right to offer it’s games or services on the iPhone any more than Apple has an inherent right to offer it’s services on the xBox. Neither platform holds a monopoly position. Users can pick and choose which ones they prefer. Would it be convenient for the user if they could play all their games on one device? Sure. But convenience isn’t a right. As a consumer you have the choice of which, if any, gaming platforms to use based on your personal priorities.
It’s already insane that Apple has to bend as much as it does to allow competitors the access to the iPhone they have. Apple, more than Nintendo, Sony, OR Microsoft gives competitors far greater access to its platform. All three have released apps and games for iOS. Both Sony and Microsoft have released remote play solutions for iOS. So far the only example of the reverse is the AppleTV app for Xbox and PlayStation. No Apple Arcade app. No Apple Music app. Etc.
And you certainly can’t play Xbox games on PlayStation or vice versa, even through a streaming service. There’s no technical reason not to, it’s purely a business decision. And a perfectly valid one. Because they are competitors. Yet despite Apple also being a competitor THEY are expected to throw open their doors to the competition? That’s nuts!
 

Mr_Ed

macrumors 6502a
Mar 10, 2004
660
507
North and east of Mickeyland
I'd like to see them partner with a company like Microsoft or Valve to make a controller, but I wouldn't trust Apple themselves to design good videogaming hardware...
Forgive my ignorance, as I personally don’t like to game on portable devices so I don’t keep up with that much, but what would be the advantage of an Apple controller over any other available controller? Last I checked you can pair any number of controllers to an iPad, including an Xbox wireless controller.
 

RadioHedgeFund

Cancelled
Sep 11, 2018
422
869
It works impressively well on iOS and my iPad. I'm just salty there's NO way this solution works on Apple TV and I have a great use case for just that.
Would an HDMI adaptor for your iPad not solve the issue? Its not as elegant as using the Apple TV but its a abtter solution that Airplay which would lag a lot.
 

TopherMan12

macrumors 6502a
Oct 10, 2019
785
897
Atlanta, GA
Would an HDMI adaptor for your iPad not solve the issue? Its not as elegant as using the Apple TV but its a abtter solution that Airplay which would lag a lot.

HDMI adapter works, but you are not getting fullscreen gaming. iPad mirrors its resolution on the TV so there are black bars on the side.
 

pcgamerandiosgamer

macrumors newbie
Jul 1, 2021
1
0
:( my Razer Kishi for ios is not working yet for xcloud. It does thankfully work with the iOS Xbox app!! The Android version is WORKING for xcloud.?!?!?! How about some love Microsoft and Razer!!
 

krspkbl

macrumors 68000
Jul 20, 2012
1,885
4,319
tried it with my M1 iPad + XB1 controller.

only played 2 games: Forza Motorsport and GTA V.

Forza i felt the latency but after 5 minutes i was fine. GTA V was straight up unplayable not being able to aim and constantly crashing my car. I even tried both games on my PC and while it was slightly better i didn't find it enjoyable at all.

it needs more work but i love the idea of it. i'd happily play all my games through xcloud on my ipad instead of buying an Xbox or upgrading my PC but until they fix the latency issues (my internet is 220Mb/s down + 21MB/s up) and maybe even improve bitrate/resolution then i can't see myself keeping the subscription.
 

Loke2112

macrumors regular
May 11, 2011
201
30
3 blocks off the Atlantic
Tried it on my M1 Mac with 500 up & down it was really pathetic. I have GFN and its head and shoulders above. People shouldn't make excuses for overload. First impressions mean way too much.
 

Loke2112

macrumors regular
May 11, 2011
201
30
3 blocks off the Atlantic
If you have a 1000 Mbps or 60 Mbps internet connection is completely meaningless, what you want is sub 20ms latency measured to the service. For this you need fiber + ethernet. For game streaming services is all about latency MacRumors, WiFi can be a hit & miss experience depending on a myriad of factors. Please re-shoot this video while connecting the iPad via ethernet.

I currently game on GeForce Now from a city in central Mexico connected to Central US with great performance and minimum lag, but I have fiber and connect via gigabit ethernet to the modem. Im 1k+ miles away from the servers and still get sub 40ms latency because of cat 8 gigabit ethernet & fiber.

I wouldnt even dare to game on WiFi.
Im gonna plug in my ethernet and test this myself as I have fiber. We shall see.
 
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lederermc

macrumors 6502a
Sep 30, 2014
897
756
Seattle
I have 1 Gb Xfinity internet with WiFi 6 mesh routers at home. Tried several games on the iPad. Overall, it worked better than I expected, but was not perfect. Input lag was noticeable but generally did not interfere with gaming enjoyment as long as the game being played did not require super fast reaction times. The gaming was mostly smooth although I did experience occasional brief video or audio stutters. The colors seemed a little bit muted.

I know using hardwired ethernet could provide better performance, but I'd have to sit next to my router and that would severely limit my gaming mobility and convenience. Seems completely counter to the point of mobile gaming.

My prior experience with Remote Play was pretty mediocre, and this was quite a bit better. Despite the occasional glitch or little bit of lag, it was infrequent enough that I had fun and played games for a good length of time this way. I did notice that after the stream initialized, load times were better than my Xbox One X at home, since Microsoft is using Series X hardware in their datacenter. I could tell that the performance was snappier.

I could certainly see myself playing certain types of games this way. When MSFS 2020 releases on the Series X, I think this would be an excellent way to play it. Age of Empires is another game releasing in October for which a little input lag would not be an issue.
Bandwidth and latency are two different things. Comcast tells you 1GB but that's just the download speed. Upload speed is much slower and there is usually about 10% loss due to overhead.
 

sw00shy

macrumors newbie
Apr 20, 2019
7
7
Stadia has no lag even over wifi.
That wasn't my experience with Stadia Pro (4K) on a Fiber Internet connection and a Wifi 6 Mesh network with ethernet-fed repeaters.

Simply unplayable at 4K. Switched to Ethernet and has been perfect since then.
 
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apparatchik

macrumors 6502a
Mar 6, 2008
822
2,503
Wi-Fi is faster than most people’s Ethernet. Has been for a while.

WiFi could be faster in terms of bandwidth, but is an order of magnitude slower in terms of latency and a world apart in terms of stability. People have been deceived to measure network speed in terms of bandwidth (how much data can travel at a time) instead of measuring it in terms of latency (how much time does it take for said data to travel the distance).

More bandwidth is meaningless above 50 Mbps, the relevant metric is latency, in which nothing beats Ethernet. Say you have a 200 Mbps internet service, you have a 1Gbps+ WiFi, and you have very basic 100 Mbps ethernet. The Ethernet will give you a better outcome for game streaming as it uses less than 100 Mbps anyways and nothing above it has an impact on the performance, while latency and stability shine on the wired connection.
 

Kar98

macrumors 65816
Feb 20, 2007
1,244
856
Apple desperately needs to release an Apple Gaming Controller.

Impressive! Makes me want to return my XBOX series X
Why? The series x is $499. Which Apple product are you going to use Xbox cloud gaming on they costs less than that?
 

Krizoitz

macrumors 68000
Apr 26, 2003
1,723
2,062
Tokyo, Japan
Why? The series x is $499. Which Apple product are you going to use Xbox cloud gaming on they costs less than that?
Why does it have to cost less? If they already have an Apple device or get one and use it for other tasks, paying even MORE for a device that simply duplicates functionality isn’t a very wise use of money.
 

Kar98

macrumors 65816
Feb 20, 2007
1,244
856
Why does it have to cost less? If they already have an Apple device or get one and use it for other tasks, paying even MORE for a device that simply duplicates functionality isn’t a very wise use of money.

But he already has the Series X.
 

EatinPonies

macrumors regular
Feb 15, 2016
143
240
This video says it all - and demonstrates it well. Just look at the lag he experiences when trying to aim at a moving target in Gears or COD. This is exactly what it feels like to play a streaming game; you move, but you're not fast enough. You aim, but you aimed too far. You shot, but you shot too late.

The thing is: I don't believe that there's really any way to fix this... It's just not possible to send a command to a server thousands of miles away, to have it process your command and adjust the on-screen stuff and stream the updated video back to you in time for you to see it and react further. ...There's just no way.
 

Mr_Ed

macrumors 6502a
Mar 10, 2004
660
507
North and east of Mickeyland
Why does it have to cost less? If they already have an Apple device or get one and use it for other tasks, paying even MORE for a device that simply duplicates functionality isn’t a very wise use of money.
A very valid point. But I would add that it may be mistake to assume cloud-rendered gaming (GeForce now, Xbox cloud, Stadia, etc.) is an acceptable substitute in every situation. I still think the type of game you play will make a huge difference for the foreseeable future. Most single player games and even multiplayer turn based games should work fine.
 

Krevnik

macrumors 601
Sep 8, 2003
4,097
1,304
Wi-Fi is faster than most people’s Ethernet. Has been for a while.

The spec unfortunately gives a misleading impression of what WiFi can actually do. I don’t have a single device that can get close to hitting rated speeds on a 1300Mbps AC link, or even keep up with a cheap 1000Mbps ethernet connection.
  • Wireless has to deal with interference in the 2.4/5Ghz bands that impacts the total throughput available. Apartments and houses close together means some of the interference you get is from other networks around you.
  • Ethernet is full duplex meaning you can send data in both directions simultaneously, while wireless is not only half duplex, only one device on a channel (not just network) can talk at a time. What transmission rate is available on a single channel is shared across all devices on that channel, and in both directions. Devices that aren’t compatible with the absolute latest speeds will also slow down that channel for everyone to some extent, by eating up more time slices to finish transmitting data.
  • Further expounding on the “only one device can talk at a time”, if you hook up your devices using an ethernet switch, then you also get the advantage that bandwidth is only shared if multiple devices want to talk to each other. For example, I can have a PC/Mac pulling files down from my home file server, saturating the cables between them. But another device on a different ethernet port can still reach the Internet at full speed. Only when two devices need to talk to my file server does bandwidth then need to be shared. But it also means your network on the whole can push a lot more data than the 1000Mbps rating for ethernet depending on usage (i.e. not everything is just going straight to the router and out to your ISP), while a wireless router’s rating is the cap on the whole wireless network’s total throughput.
The end result is that I can pull >100MBytes/s over a single ethernet cable, while at best I get around 20-25MBytes/s over wireless on my iPad. The fact that WiFi only allows one device to transmit at a time and retransmissions are required when interference causes problems also means latency is higher and more volatile than ethernet, which is important in the case of game streaming.

I paid to have ethernet run through our house when we bought it, because we have two adults that work from home at least part of the week (all of the week during the last year), and move quite a bit of data around between devices on our network. By shunting as much of that onto ethernet as possible, we keep the wireless experience for the devices that need it as smooth as possible, while also getting very good performance on everything that is wired in. Nobody notices when I’m uploading gigabytes of data to the home file server, movie streaming from the file server has no real impact on the ability to game online, etc.
 
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