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Yes.. but one of apple's environmental guidelines says "Relative humidity: 5% to 95% noncondensing" .. therefore if condensation is caused by humidity, you are using it outside of apple's guidelines.

Creates an interesting problem though if Apple products are sold in countries and regions where weather conditions, climate changes and normal lifestyles are capable of creating environments that are outside of Apples guidelines.

In New Zealand for example winter with high rainfalls, cold winds and indoor heating frequently result in humidity high enough to cause condensation to form on windows. In far North Queensland condensation can form on personal items such as glasses and watches when moving between air-conditioned environments (homes, businesses, cars even public transport) on hot humid summer days.
 
Yes.. but one of apple's environmental guidelines says "Relative humidity: 5% to 95% noncondensing" .. therefore if condensation is caused by humidity, you are using it outside of apple's guidelines.

no what non condensing means is the iPhone is never going to be in an environment that is below the dew point. Live in Houston or another coastal city like that and you will learn what the dew point is.

In case you are wondering the dew point is at what temperature condensation will form on objects in said environment.
 
Unfortunately the original article fails to mention the fact that while the 3M tests they describe are carried out at 95% RH, they are also at 55 degrees C:

3M1.png.jpg


That's well outside the iPhone's recommended operating temperature range (max 45C) and gives no evidence at all that 95% RH will change the sensor colour at temperatures within the recommended operating range. Move along, nothing to see here...

True 55C is out side of the iPhone operating temperature it is NOT outside of iPhone storage temperature.
 
True 55C is out side of the iPhone operating temperature it is NOT outside of iPhone storage temperature.

Actually it is:

Apple said:
Environmental requirements
Operating temperature: 32° to 95° F
(0° to 35° C)
Nonoperating temperature: -4° to 113° F
(-20° to 45° C)
Relative humidity: 5% to 95% noncondensing
Maximum operating altitude: 10,000 feet (3000 m)

So actually I was wrong in my earlier post, in that the max operating temperature is 35C: that makes it even less likely that changes at a temp of 55C are likely to be relevant in real-world use.
 
Actually it is:



So actually I was wrong in my earlier post, in that the max operating temperature is 35C: that makes it even less likely that changes at a temp of 55C are likely to be relevant in real-world use.

But since that is the only temp the tests were done at, we don't know what effect temp vs humidity has. Maybe the results would be the same at 35degrees and 95 RH. Maybe not.
 
But since that is the only temp the tests were done at, we don't know what effect temp vs humidity has. Maybe the results would be the same at 35degrees and 95 RH. Maybe not.

You're right: however, that doesn't change the fact that the test referred to in the HardMac article bears no relation to real-world, within-spec use of the iPhone. If I was going to speculate, I'd say that as most chemical reactions tend to go faster at higher temperatures then at 35C there would be less likelihood of a change. That would also fit with Apple's assertion that in normal operation humidity won't trip the sensor.
 
Environmental requirements
Operating temperature: 32° to 95° F
(0° to 35° C)
Nonoperating temperature: -4° to 113° F
(-20° to 45° C)
Relative humidity: 5% to 95% noncondensing
Maximum operating altitude: 10,000 feet (3000 m)

Damn... It looks as if those of us who live in Arizona in the summer should turn our phones off and put them in the refrigerator... ;)
 
Yes.. but one of apple's environmental guidelines says "Relative humidity: 5% to 95% noncondensing" .. therefore if condensation is caused by humidity, you are using it outside of apple's guidelines.

WTF is "noncondensing" humidity? Humidity is moisture in air, it condenses based upon temp differential and nucleation (suitable surface for condensation to form), there is no such thing as "noncondensing" humidity.
 
WTF is "noncondensing" humidity? Humidity is moisture in air, it condenses based upon temp differential and nucleation (suitable surface for condensation to form), there is no such thing as "noncondensing" humidity.

I don't understand why you are picking this apart. How would you prefer they say that it must remain below the dew point?
 
WTF is "noncondensing" humidity? Humidity is moisture in air, it condenses based upon temp differential and nucleation (suitable surface for condensation to form), there is no such thing as "noncondensing" humidity.

noncondensing humidity just means said object needs to be above the dew point.

Or if the outside temp drops below the dew point it becomes noncondensing.

For example if the dew point is 72 degree. Anything less than 72 degrees will have water to condense on it.

If the temperature drops below 72 degrees any object outside will have condensing humidity get on it.
 
Whether or not you operate outside Apple's "environmental requirements," which seems to cover their end that the phone's can't be used in extremely high humidities, but it goes on to say adjacent modules need to be inspected for water damage. So just triggering a water sensor, won't automatically void your warranty.
 
Whether or not you operate outside Apple's "environmental requirements," which seems to cover their end that the phone's can't be used in extremely high humidities, but it goes on to say adjacent modules need to be inspected for water damage. So just triggering a water sensor, won't automatically void your warranty.

That how it should work. The water sensor on anything are supposed to only provide evidence of POSSIBLE water damage. If they are trip what they should do is look for water damage. If the sensor are not trip then there is no need to look for water damage.

Apple on the other had is saying the sensor are an end off. If trip water damage has happen no warranty. Sad truth is because of things like this laws are going to get put in place saying that the there much be other evidence in place to prove water damage.
 
That how it should work. The water sensor on anything are supposed to only provide evidence of POSSIBLE water damage. If they are trip what they should do is look for water damage. If the sensor are not trip then there is no need to look for water damage.

Apple on the other had is saying the sensor are an end off. If trip water damage has happen no warranty. Sad truth is because of things like this laws are going to get put in place saying that the there much be other evidence in place to prove water damage.

So as an informed consumer, if the Genius says the phones warranty is void because of the problem you need to escalate the issue. Talk with a manager and if that doesn't work, call Apple customer service...

At the same time, the number of people who honestly have their sensor trip NOT due to water immersion is a very very small percentage I'd say. The majority of complaints are from users who are being dishonest.
 
Whether or not you operate outside Apple's "environmental requirements," which seems to cover their end that the phone's can't be used in extremely high humidities, but it goes on to say adjacent modules need to be inspected for water damage. So just triggering a water sensor, shouldn't automatically void your warranty.

key word change there...because as we know...Apple doesn't follow that policy to the letter.

An example would be silent switches that need replacement that they refuse to replace because of a tripped sensor. Anyone getting told that should demand that they inspect the switch to see if it's defect is the result of water damage...if it isn't...then it is eligible for warranty repair. Only components which are actually water damaged according to that policy, are ineligible for warranty work. Right now they just aren't following that to the letter and skimming over the part where non-water damaged parts are still eligible to be fixed. THAT is the problem with the effective Apple policy for those sensors.

So as an informed consumer, if the Genius says the phones warranty is void because of the problem you need to escalate the issue. Talk with a manager and if that doesn't work, call Apple customer service...

Gotta use their policy against them...Most people don't know what the policy actually is...only what the effective policy is...

At the same time, the number of people who honestly have their sensor trip NOT due to water immersion is a very very small percentage I'd say. The majority of complaints are from users who are being dishonest.

This is probably the case...I'm sure if you laid out a map of the US to see where triggered sensors show up...a large number would be in areas that are typically quite humid and hot in the summer (we're talking in weeks here, not days). Areas that probably exceed the operating environment requirements regularly...just another reason why I don't want to live in those kinds of areas. Gimme cool and non-humid any day.
 
So as an informed consumer, if the Genius says the phones warranty is void because of the problem you need to escalate the issue. Talk with a manager and if that doesn't work, call Apple customer service...

At the same time, the number of people who honestly have their sensor trip NOT due to water immersion is a very very small percentage I'd say. The majority of complaints are from users who are being dishonest.

Oh I think it is more the other way around. I read way to many false positives with the water sensor than not. I live in a humid environment (Houston) and I have watch multiple water sensors across many devices start to turn colors. Normally it is only a slight color change enough for apple to claim water damage.

Problem is apple is using the slight trip sensor as an end all. Going up the chain does nothing.

I would like to see a break down of where "water damage" happens. Apple should do that as well. Apple knows were ipods are shown and the same % of water damage should happen all over the US but if you have a huge number popping up in Houston or other humid places than that tell you something else is wrong.
 
A very interesting post indeed. Being over here in the UK, the phrase ' warm' and 'humidity' are alien phrases!

Could a member of the public replace their own sensors, I guess they're glued into the iPhone so changing them cant be -that- difficult? Can it?
 
An example would be silent switches that need replacement that they refuse to replace because of a tripped sensor. Anyone getting told that should demand that they inspect the switch to see if it's defect is the result of water damage...if it isn't...then it is eligible for warranty repair. Only components which are actually water damaged according to that policy, are ineligible for warranty work. Right now they just aren't following that to the letter and skimming over the part where non-water damaged parts are still eligible to be fixed. THAT is the problem with the effective Apple policy for those sensors.

I'm not quite sure what you mean. The only "repair" Apple can do on iPhone 3G and 3GS units is to replace the display assembly, other than that their "repair" strategy is to replace the whole unit. So, if the ringer button came off, they replace the whole unit, they don't just glue on another button.

If an iPhone or iPod has been damaged by liquid, the repair is not covered by the Apple one (1) year limited warranty or an AppleCare Protection plan (APP). iPhone models and iPod models that were built after 2006 have built-in Liquid Submersion Indicators that will show (as described below) whether liquid has entered the device.

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT3302

(First hit on Google searching the phrase "liquid submersion indicator")

And pretty much every other phone has these built into them.
 
I'm not quite sure what you mean. The only "repair" Apple can do on iPhone 3G and 3GS units is to replace the display assembly, other than that their "repair" strategy is to replace the whole unit. So, if the ringer button came off, they replace the whole unit, they don't just glue on another button.

I think what this person was saying is that if you bring your iphone in with a broken ringer button, they look through a magnifying glass at the water sensor, and if it is pink at all, they deny your request even though the ringer button clearly had nothing to do with water.
 
PR problem for iPhone

Oh I think it is more the other way around. I read way to many false positives with the water sensor than not. I live in a humid environment (Houston) and I have watch multiple water sensors across many devices start to turn colors. Normally it is only a slight color change enough for apple to claim water damage.

Problem is apple is using the slight trip sensor as an end all. Going up the chain does nothing.

I would like to see a break down of where "water damage" happens. Apple should do that as well. Apple knows were ipods are shown and the same % of water damage should happen all over the US but if you have a huge number popping up in Houston or other humid places than that tell you something else is wrong.


You are right about the Genius, Manager, Phone support, customer service @ apple and product specialists all saying the same thing. I went way up the ladder and I kept getting the same answer. This is a hard line in the sand for them...if ANY sensor is not white, your warranty is void. End of story.

I absolutely love my iPhone and can't really see my life without it in it. I take better care of it than I do myself! I am on my second iPhone (1G--3G) and unfortunately have had this issue kick me in the rear. The real problem with all of this is their unwillingness to admit there is a possible sensor fail indicator. If it's red....there really is no doubt or wiggle room. But if only one of the sensors is pink or just slightly pink, they should use some discretion about their service policy. But they don't and this is becoming a PR problem for Apple and will affect customers like me who haven't mistreated their phones or put them in a compromising environment. Yes I know I belong to a small majority of customers with a real legitimate complaint, and I also know there are many dishonest people who try to get something for nothing. However, I can upgrade to the 3GS but without Apple really defining this issue with the sensors I am not comfortable getting the next model.

Lightning can strike twice and I could easily end up in the same position I am in now if the sensors are faulty and my new 3GS has the same design flaw my 3G has now. If they upgrade the sensor quality, change their policy to investigate a slight color change in only one sensor, or even just address this issue other than the hard line "It's Void--we can't help you at all", I would be more at ease with my next purchase. Every day I read more and more comments from people who have this issue, and it is not going away. I understand the capitalist place Apple is in, and they need to keep making money. I changed to Apple from MS recently because the products are better and most importantly the customer service is the best in the business. My Apple love has not changed, but I'm very concerned about this problem and it has colored my viewpoint on my love affair with my iPhone. I don't want a divorce but I am not going to throw away my money either.
 
The article does a good job of putting some serious doubts on Apple's claims that any color change, including pink is an indicator that a sensor was tripped and that the warranty was voided.

Apple's own product pages insist that regular use, steam, etc, should not "trip" the sensors.

So, what I would say is necessary in this case is for Macrumors, HardMac, Appleinsider, Gizmodo, etc, to put this to the test themselves and determine if the sensors on the iPhone can be tripped if they are exposed to the indicated levels of humidity and temperature that the iPhone is supposed to operate in.

That's really the only way that this can be settled.

It would certainly be handy for someone with a "pink" water indicator to print out the Hard Mac article and show it to a store manager in order to argue about getting their device replaced for non water related issues.
 
I agree with this article 100%, the water sensors are way too easily tripped without being in direct contact with water. I have tripped them on two iphones in the past without them ever touching a drop of water. A genius noticed it when I was having trouble with my headphones, and after noticing no damage other than the tripped sensor he replaced the phone. So call them what you like, but I think they are putting way too much stock into them to determine liquid damage.
 
I agree with this article 100%, the water sensors are way too easily tripped without being in direct contact with water. I have tripped them on two iphones in the past without them ever touching a drop of water. A genius noticed it when I was having trouble with my headphones, and after noticing no damage other than the tripped sensor he replaced the phone. So call them what you like, but I think they are putting way too much stock into them to determine liquid damage.

That doesnt make sense, if its tripped it voids your warranty. Why would he replace it.
 
That doesnt make sense, if its tripped it voids your warranty. Why would he replace it.

Because it was an apple genius no an apple idiot who normally work behind the counter.

Apple own warrenty policy states if a sensor is trip then ONLY the things that water would of damage will void the warranty. Also it states a trip sensor means they need to look for other signs of water damage.

If the sensor is trip the apple genius is supposed to provide proof said problem is cause by water damage.
 
Unfortunately the original article fails to mention the fact that while the 3M tests they describe are carried out at 95% RH, they are also at 55 degrees C:

3M1.png.jpg


That's well outside the iPhone's recommended operating temperature range (max 45C) and gives no evidence at all that 95% RH will change the sensor colour at temperatures within the recommended operating range. Move along, nothing to see here...

Ever been in a warm car. Ever had a phone in a parked car. You can kiss your 45C goodbye. This is one reason why my ericsson phone works and is still used. It is made for out of the box use. Apple can keep their phone, because you can't use it as a mobile phone without going outside apple approved parameters. What a joke!
 
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