Has Microsoft 'out-Appled' Apple at the laptop game with Surfaces?

[smirking]

Say no to touchscreen laptops. They are horrible horrible for ergonomics. Before I became a developer, I was a medical professional in a field that deals heavily with ergonomics. I've always been horrified by the usage habits people develop when a touchscreen laptop is placed in front of them. They quickly stop using the mouse or trackpad and do everything on the monitor. That is putting insane stress on your shoulders and neck. You are lining yourself up for early arthritis of the neck, disk degeneration, and other orthopedic joys.

Occasional use of a touchscreen laptop is fine, but the issue is that I have yet to meet someone who doesn't develop the habit to touch everything after a while. I even started touching the screen more and more even though I knew very well it wasn't healthy to do that.

 

[nicho]

cervical arthritis

Once I got over the "eh?" moment, I learned today that the cervix can also refer to the neck.

 

[zhenya]

Microsoft simply did what they needed to do to keep up with Apple. Their devices are nice looking, although feeling a little dated already.

I had my fling with a couple of them. Both failed catastrophically in under 3 years and became expensive doorstops. In the end I found combining the tablet experience with my main workstation OS didn’t pan out in practice. Windows still doesn’t handle frequent dock changes gracefully, and the experience of taking handwritten notes on a Windows device is still extremely clunky compared to an iPad. With an iPad I am 100% confident I can take notes in any situation as reliably as pen and paper. No Windows device comes close to that confidence level.

Further, I have found that having a second device as a companion to my main laptop is simply a better experience than combining the two. Yes, it’s more expensive, but Apple has always been about the best user experience, not the lowest cost.

 

[smirking]

Once I got over the "eh?" moment, I learned today that the cervix can also refer to the neck.

Sort of. Cervical can refer to something related to female anatomy as in cancer of the cervix (cervical cancer) or it refers to the neck as in cervical spine, but cervix is never used to refer to the neck.

I made an edit to my comment so as to not trip up anyone else who's reading fast.

 

[Steve121178]

I have a Surface Laptop 2 which is ok. I still choose to use my late 2013 MacBook Pro over it as it does everything better.

Windows 10 is good, but it still feels old and outdated. Microsoft need to push on with Windows to take advantage of the amazing hardware out there. This is the same issue Apple has with the iPad - it's gimped by the OS.

 

[keeper]

I find it strange that people harp on about the OS.
In reality it’s used to set up and run the applications.

Once this is done your workflow is done on the applications installed not the OS.

Whats the difference between clicking on the Word icon in OSX or windows?

 

[Smoothie]

Not for nothing, the same exact argument can and has been made regarding Macs.

With that said, it sux that your SP4 did not last as long as it ought too, and I'm not making any excuses related to the inadequacy of that product or its premature failure.

When I brought the Surface Pro 4 into a MS store to ask about my options, they told me that MS doesn't repair them. At least with MBPs, you can unscrew the bottom case cover and access the internals and Apple can attempt a repair.

 

[maflynn]

When I brought the Surface Pro 4 into a MS store to ask about my options, they told me that MS doesn't repair them. At least with MBPs, you can unscrew the bottom case cover and access the internals and Apple can attempt a repair.

Here's how I understand things, MS will give you a new machine (or refurb?), where as Apple will "repair" the laptop by giving you a new logic board, and most likely top case (because the battery is glued). So I'd contend that apple's approach is not a repair in the traditional sense.

For example: If the memory module failed on a SP4 and a MBP, , MS would hand a replacement to you, Apple would give you a new logic board (which includes a new SSD so your data will be gone). Maybe I'm splitting hairs

 

[MandiMac]

I can see Apple eventually doing a touch screen because they don't have a choice.

But they already did. It's called the iPad and it sells wonderfully.

 

[maflynn]

But they already did. It's called the iPad and it sells wonderfully.

Yep, and let us not forget that macOS is not a touch-based OS, and look at the pain that MS went through making windows touch based. Windows 8 had a lot of other issues, which muddies the water a bit but the fact remains that it was not an easy transition.

As for the iPad, its my belief that Apple sees the iPad as the future, and will not introduce technology or designs that will cannibalize sales. Apple has been willing to cannibalize sales of other products, but its been promoting the new at the expense of the old, in this case it would be the old at the expense of the new and I don't think apple will do that.

I enjoy touch screens on my laptop but its not something that I go out of my way to use and to be honest if it was absent, I'd probably not miss it that much

 

[smirking]

I enjoy touch screens on my laptop but its not something that I go out of my way to use and to be honest if it was absent, I'd probably not miss it that much

If you care about your neck and shoulders, keep your use of the laptop's touchscreen limited. It's just the wrong form factor to be used that way.

 

[XNorth]

Sure, I would give the Surface a try if you can HackiOS it. Yeah, I'm definitely trademarking that word, and don't nobody steal it. Imma register HackiOS.com and start a new community of hacking iOS on Surfaces. Fudge Apple.

 

[AustinIllini]

Given the complaining and issues regarding Catalina, I think your argument that its a substandard OS, is weak. You may prefer macOS, but that doesn't mean objectively one is better then the other. Both operating systems have their own advantages and disadvantages.

Problem is Windows is inherently broken from the foundation. Catalina has definitely been rough, but it's built on a solid foundation which Windows simply doesn't have.

Bad kernel, bad codebase, bad registry. The foundation is just broken beyond recoverability. While macOS isn't where it should be right now, the path to better stability is far less treacherous on Mac.

 

[PeterJP]

I find it strange that people harp on about the OS.
In reality it’s used to set up and run the applications.

Once this is done your workflow is done on the applications installed not the OS.

Whats the difference between clicking on the Word icon in OSX or windows?

There's much more to an OS than what you describe. Windows doesn't have an elegant backup solution like time machine. Instead, it has two different ones with different purposes and different user interfaces. Try setting that up. No wonder hardly so many people using Windows lose files so frequently compared to mac users.

Then there's the command line. In Windows, you get straight back to the 1980s and MSDOS. On a mac, you have a complete POSIX shell with 2 package managers. Might not be a concern for you, but I couldn't live without it.

And then there's automatic pasword sync with iOS devices. Better font rendering that is exactly the same as on paper instead of different rendering for paper vs screen as in Windows. Better handling of hidpi screens. Less cluttering of storage after removing apps. Less slowdown after some time in use. All thanks to the OS.

 

[topcat001]

On my surface I only use the touchscreen in tablet mode when I'm watching movies. Otherwise I just forget it's there. Also, I dislike smudged screens. At work, sometimes a colleague will come over and poke my screen -> automatic -20 brownie points .

 

[vinegarshots]

I was enthusiastic a few years ago when I got my Surface Pro 4. But I ended up ditching it after a year, for a few reasons:

1) There is almost no point to having the detachable keyboard, because Windows is absolute garbage as a tablet OS.
2) Windows app support for Tablet use is also garbage. Even apps that would benefit from the stylus and tablet mode are still a total pain in the butt to navigate (Photoshop...Illustrator...etc).
3) The stylus was almost useless for anything other than taking notes, because the sensitivity and latency was horrid. The build quality was also questionable (my first one shorted out), and the battery was a ridiculous uncommon size that was hard to find (AAAA???). AND the tips broke off way too easily.

 

[maflynn]

Problem is Windows is inherently broken from the foundation. Catalina has definitely been rough, but it's built on a solid foundation which Windows simply doesn't have.

While some things are archaic design and architecture wise with windows to be sure, I think you're over-exaggerating the issue. I understand its just your opinion and you have a right to it as I have one for myself

While macOS isn't where it should be right now, the path to better stability is far less treacherous on Mac.

Windows has been extremely stable for quite a while, something that doesn't seem to be the case with macOS. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

On the topic of MS out appling apple, I gave my opinion, but I do wonder how things will evolve with the latest set of updates from both companies.

From MS, they're rolling out solid products and I've not heard of anything major that would be a cause of concern, and from Apple they're trying to move on from the whole butterfly keyboard debacle. I don't know how prevalent the other problems are with the 16" MBP, but it seems like there's a sizable group of people who are unhappy (and I'm sure a larger segment that is happy).

 

[drinkingtea]

While some things are archaic design and architecture wise with windows to be sure, I think you're over-exaggerating the issue. I understand its just your opinion and you have a right to it as I have one for myself


Windows has been extremely stable for quite a while, something that doesn't seem to be the case with macOS. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

On the topic of MS out appling apple, I gave my opinion, but I do wonder how things will evolve with the latest set of updates from both companies.

From MS, they're rolling out solid products and I've not heard of anything major that would be a cause of concern, and from Apple they're trying to move on from the whole butterfly keyboard debacle. I don't know how prevalent the other problems are with the 16" MBP, but it seems like there's a sizable group of people who are unhappy (and I'm sure a larger segment that is happy).

His or her comment that “Problem is Windows is inherently broken from the foundation.” had me confused. I really don’t understand sentiments like this. It seems more like blind fanboy/girl-ism than anything else. Or they’re convincing themselves that their 3K MacBook Pro purchase was worthwhile. I’ve used Windows 10 many times and it’s worked perfectly fine every time, unlike Catalina. Most major companies and the U.S. federal government rely on Windows OS on a daily basis and they seem to be fine. 🤷‍♀️

Also, I’m really impressed by how well the Surface Pro 7 has been doing where I work that I’m considering getting myself one. So much more can be done on that Surface than I ever could have accomplished with my MacBook, which died after just two years of use.

 

[maflynn]

“Problem is Windows is inherently broken from the foundation.”

There some things built into windows that have not aged as well as they could have, the registry is the oft used excuse that is trotted out to point to how inferior/unstable/poor of a operating system. I admit it can be a weakpoint to be sure, but its not as bad as many people make it out to be.

I don't think the codebase or the kernel is bad (old yes, but not bad), and since he failed to provide specifics to support his supposition, I just take it as a member's opinion and being on a mac site, its not surprising.

In my opinion, you can do more, have more flexibility, and have access to more hardware then you can with the mac, and that's a huge plus.

Both platforms have the pros and cons, Surface devices and Macs have their own set of pros and cons, you pick the platform and/or laptop that best fits your needs, wants and budget.

Microsoft has rolled out some very impressive products and in some ways out-innovated Apple. Yet they also made some very strange decisions,, for example, The original Surface studio used a slow spinning drive - like Apple. Why in the world would you put a 5,400 rpm spinning hardrive in a modern computer? At least MS has corrected that, with the latest Surface Studio, whereas Apple is still selling iMacs with 5400 rpm drives.

 

[vinegarshots]

There some things built into windows that have not aged as well as they could have, the registry is the oft used excuse that is trotted out to point to how inferior/unstable/poor of a operating system. I admit it can be a weakpoint to be sure, but its not as bad as many people make it out to be.

I don't think the codebase or the kernel is bad (old yes, but not bad), and since he failed to provide specifics to support his supposition, I just take it as a member's opinion and being on a mac site, its not surprising.

In my opinion, you can do more, have more flexibility, and have access to more hardware then you can with the mac, and that's a huge plus.

Both platforms have the pros and cons, Surface devices and Macs have their own set of pros and cons, you pick the platform and/or laptop that best fits your needs, wants and budget.

Microsoft has rolled out some very impressive products and in some ways out-innovated Apple. Yet they also made some very strange decisions,, for example, The original Surface studio used a slow spinning drive - like Apple. Why in the world would you put a 5,400 rpm spinning hardrive in a modern computer? At least MS has corrected that, with the latest Surface Studio, whereas Apple is still selling iMacs with 5400 rpm drives.

Windows 10 has been out for 5 years, and MS still hasn't been able to figure out how to move all of the system settings from Control Panel into the "new" Windows Settings dialog. So instead, everything is nonsensically split up between the legacy Control Panel interface that's barely changed since Windows XP, and the new Windows 10 Settings UI. This is the biggest issue with Windows to me. It's a bloated, ancient codebase that can't be updated properly, so there are layers upon layers of fragmented pieces from years past. Things that should be incredibly simple become messy, broken nonsense. I spent 4 days a few months ago trying a million different configurations and reading pages of support docs trying to get Windows Remote Desktop to work (never did). It's just a totally broken feature, just like a thousand others. It shouldn't be this hard.

 

[Christopher Sullivan]

The next version of Windows is likely going to be on Linux, so there goes the stability complaints. Both Apple and Microsoft are innovating. I do feel that Microsoft has really picked up the pace in comparison to Apple. I feel that Apple products are not nearly as stable as they used to be and they have work to do. Microsoft will have phones based on Android that has been tweaked and will have other new things coming. Increasingly, they care less about OS and more about Apps, Cloud, and other things. Both companies have great products targeted at different audiences.

 

[Jimmy James]

I have a touchscreen Lenovo for work. Never use it. Maybe it’s just habit.

I’m also not sure I’m a tablet person. A lot of my portable use is at home watching a show on the couch. I prefer the laptop.

 

[bill-p]

It's actually quite simple: for you guys who are praising Microsoft, please name just one Windows laptop that can output 5K via a single Thunderbolt 3 port that does not cost more than the base 13" MacBook Pro. Oh, and it has to work right out of the box, no fiddling needed.

That and please write out how I can get Autodesk Fusion 360 to work on Windows 10 at native resolution when I use high DPI scaling because... God forbids, there are laptops with high resolution displays, including Microsoft's own Surface Book.

I am not an Apple fanboy, but honestly, until Microsoft gets better at standardizing high DPI scaling across all apps, and also better at dealing with external displays in general, I think I'll stick to my MacBook. Linux will make Windows 10 more stable? Eh... I beg to differ. Name one Linux desktop environment that has "proper" high DPI support. I'm sick of being stuck to 1080p just so I can read texts.

Apple is not perfect, but at least the above 2 things I mentioned are perfect on all current MacBook Pros.

 

[BigMcGuire]

I’m a huge fan of Windows 10 Pro. I’ve been using Windows heavily all my life since 3.11. While I’ve never owned a Surface tablet, I’ve looked at them, had the privilege of using them, and know a lot of people that own them. The people that have them like them, but often times, the people that own them are usually anti-Apple so I find it difficult to get a fair evaluation of Apple Vs Microsoft. Was surprised at how much the Microsoft accessories cost for the Surface lineup.

I don’t think the pen really compares but I haven’t had a lot of time with it.

Had the privilege of someone using a Surface Book behind me in a class - we both used our devices to take notes the entire semester (a math class). I definitely preferred my iPad Pro 10.5 at the time with the Apple Pencil.

Definitely against touch screens on laptops. Love my iPad and I often use it with a stand on my desk but touch screen on a laptop? Nah. I used it rarely on my XPS 15 when I had it.


But harping on Windows 10 is not fair in my opinion. As someone who has used Mac for personal computing since 2015 ... Windows 10 is amazing - very stable, very fast, very capable. Sure, the control panel and tablet UI settings is a little bit of a mess but people like me just use the old school Control Panel anyway. Windows 10 with a $300+ GPU, 1TB NVME SSD, and a nice CPU - just screams. I really like Windows 10.

But I prefer Mac OS when I come home from work. The readability of text, Mac OS apps, integration between my Apple devices... Catalina has been the buggiest and laggiest experience of my entire Apple career.

I’m using my iPad Air 3 more than ever these days.. (To write this post with an old Apple Magic Keyboard 1). It is my most used device outside of work.

 

[Thysanoptera]

I spent 4 days a few months ago trying a million different configurations and reading pages of support docs trying to get Windows Remote Desktop to work (never did). It's just a totally broken feature, just like a thousand others. It shouldn't be this hard.

You need to flip one switch in settings, I never had to do anything else. You probably had something blocking the port on the network. It works flawlessly and is actually usable for remote work unlike Apple's VNC based solution. Remote Desktop is one of the worst possible examples you could have chosen to establish Apple's superiority. Second only to software availability and quality as compared to Windows versions.

It's actually quite simple: for you guys who are praising Microsoft, please name just one Windows laptop that can output 5K via a single Thunderbolt 3 port that does not cost more than the base 13" MacBook Pro. Oh, and it has to work right out of the box, no fiddling needed.

LoL, I should probably edit my statement above. Bringing up hardware compatibility as Apple's strength is just beyond words. With Apple you're limited to hand picked selected number of devices. And not only for lack of drivers, there is a fricking blacklist backed into MacOS, just in case somebody tried to use something that was not approved. How are those Nvidia cards doing btw?

And to answer your question - Acer Swift 3 will drive 5k display. And you can buy two of them for the price of single, base 13'' macbook pro.