Has Microsoft 'out-Appled' Apple at the laptop game with Surfaces?

[vinegarshots]

You need to flip one switch in settings, I never had to do anything else. You probably had something blocking the port on the network. It works flawlessly and is actually usable for remote work unlike Apple's VNC based solution. Remote Desktop is one of the worst possible examples you could have chosen to establish Apple's superiority. Second only to software availability and quality as compared to Windows versions.

Just because it works for you does not at all make it “flawless” for everyone else. Trying to troubleshoot Windows problems always goes down an endless rabbit hole of a million different OS settings and configurations to mess with in a frustrating trial-and-error procedure.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/windowsreport.com/remote-desktop-wont-connect-windows-10/?amp

This is just ONE ☝️ Remote Desktop troubleshooting guide. There are many that are much much worse.

 

[AndyMacAndMic]

Just because it works for you does not at all make it “flawless” for everyone else. Trying to troubleshoot Windows problems always goes down an endless rabbit hole of a million different OS settings and configurations to mess with in a frustrating trial-and-error procedure.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/windowsreport.com/remote-desktop-wont-connect-windows-10/?amp

This is just ONE ☝ Remote Desktop troubleshooting guide. There are many that are much much worse.

The same can be said about your arguments. Just because it does not work for you does not make it unusable for everyone else.

Lots of links with trouble shooting guides can also be found for MacOs. It works both ways.

Every OS has its frustrating parts. Be it MacOs, Windows or Linux.

If you focus on all the positive points for OS 'A' and on all the negative points for OS 'B' you can bash any OS.
Why religiously trying to convince people in such a black and white manner? The truth is always somewhere in the middle.

If people want to use Windows let them, if people want to use MacOS let them. Why put all this wasted energy in trying to convince them otherwise? In the end an OS is just a tool. People use the tool that works for them. Are you just as fanatical about the brand of your hammer?

 

[bill-p]

LoL, I should probably edit my statement above. Bringing up hardware compatibility as Apple's strength is just beyond words. With Apple you're limited to hand picked selected number of devices. And not only for lack of drivers, there is a fricking blacklist backed into MacOS, just in case somebody tried to use something that was not approved. How are those Nvidia cards doing btw?

And to answer your question - Acer Swift 3 will drive 5k display. And you can buy two of them for the price of single, base 13'' macbook pro.

Catalina still supports nVidia Kepler. Meaning... GTX Titan still works right out of the box. I don't think you know what you are talking about.

Also I don't think you even know what it takes to drive the LG Ultrafine 5K via a single Thunderbolt 3 port. Please do a Google search, and that should tell you. I know because I have tried to get it to work and now I know why it may work with some laptops (and not with some others). Let's just say you can't just simply assume that any random Thunderbolt 3 port will work. And Apple themselves did not do anything special to their Thunderbolt 3 implementation, either. It's just that many other manufacturers decide to cheap out on their Thunderbolt 3 implementations.

So with that said, are you absolutely sure the Acer Swift 3 is up to the task? I could not find any information at all on what Thunderbolt 3 controller it's using, but the MX 250 GPU it uses does not seem to fit the bill for the LG Ultrafine 5K.

 

[c0ppo]

His or her comment that “Problem is Windows is inherently broken from the foundation.” had me confused. I really don’t understand sentiments like this. It seems more like blind fanboy/girl-ism than anything else.

Now, I don't use Mac OS anymore, not because I think Mac OS is bad or anything, I just find Apples hardware to be lacking for my needs and wants.

But I do think that @AustinIllini is correct. Windows is inherently broken. And I can clarify my position, and will try to do so now in simple and straightforward terms. If you need more clarification, please, say so, I will do my best.

1) Windows is still using registry.
Registry was considered a nice concept. A centralized solution for something like .plist on mac. But that nice idea is still haunting MS till this day. You can't maintain registry, it will get bloated over time, no matter what you do. And there are no limits for developers, so one app can make registry entry that another app can override/delete/etc.

So those conflicts make registry inherently unstable, hence the crashes of apps or even Windows themselves that no one can explain.

2) You can't move user folder easily to different location. For example, moving entire user folder on any linux distro or MacOS is a piece of cake. Or even moving installed apps. Try doing that on windows 10. Have fun

3) Updates
If you look at popular operating systems these days, from iOS/Android, to Mac OS, Linux and Windows... Everyone of those has easy updates that take little time and no effort at all. Every one of those. Except Windows 10. Being backwards compatible, there are layers upon layers stacked up in Windows 10, and updates are a complete mess. They can ruin drivers, user defined settings, or not even boot at all. Not to mention that they can take up entire night to actually update.

4) Privacy/Flexibility/Security/Stability
Yes, privacy. Windows 10 is completely anti privacy. And things aren't going to get better, since Windows 10 is becoming a service.

With linux for example, you can do literally whatever you want. And it's way more secure, it's more stable, and it's most of linux distros aren't bloated like windows. Just look at windows 10 install size.

Download anything larger that is archived in multi rar/zip/etc files. Try extracting that on windows, then try on linux. On the same computer, with the same hardware, it's not even a race. Why? NTFS.

I could go on and on... From lousy File Explorer, to why MS uses drive letters, etc. Actually, while we are at drive letters, those predate even MS-DOS. Drives A: and B: are reserved for floppy drives. Even today. That's why your windows 10 install is on C: drive. Because A&B are reserved for floppy drives.

Now, is Windows 10 just bad? Of course not. I find it silly to argue which OS is better or worse. Use what you can, or what you want, or what you need. When I'm developing .NET applications, I use windows. I could theoretically do that on Linux as well, but why bother? .NET is made for windows, runs great on windows, so I use windows on that occasion.

All OS have their flaws. I just find Windows 10 to be really outdated, slow, bloated and clunky. But some of my coworkers find it great. To each their own I guess

 

[agaskew]

It's actually quite simple: for you guys who are praising Microsoft, please name just one Windows laptop that can output 5K via a single Thunderbolt 3 port that does not cost more than the base 13" MacBook Pro. Oh, and it has to work right out of the box, no fiddling needed.

That and please write out how I can get Autodesk Fusion 360 to work on Windows 10 at native resolution when I use high DPI scaling because... God forbids, there are laptops with high resolution displays, including Microsoft's own Surface Book.

I am not an Apple fanboy, but honestly, until Microsoft gets better at standardizing high DPI scaling across all apps, and also better at dealing with external displays in general, I think I'll stick to my MacBook. Linux will make Windows 10 more stable? Eh... I beg to differ. Name one Linux desktop environment that has "proper" high DPI support. I'm sick of being stuck to 1080p just so I can read texts.

Apple is not perfect, but at least the above 2 things I mentioned are perfect on all current MacBook Pros.

All platforms have their specific issues. So what?

There's much more to an OS than what you describe. Windows doesn't have an elegant backup solution like time machine. Instead, it has two different ones with different purposes and different user interfaces. Try setting that up. No wonder hardly so many people using Windows lose files so frequently compared to mac users.

Then there's the command line. In Windows, you get straight back to the 1980s and MSDOS. On a mac, you have a complete POSIX shell with 2 package managers. Might not be a concern for you, but I couldn't live without it.

And then there's automatic pasword sync with iOS devices. Better font rendering that is exactly the same as on paper instead of different rendering for paper vs screen as in Windows. Better handling of hidpi screens. Less cluttering of storage after removing apps. Less slowdown after some time in use. All thanks to the OS.

There are of course any number of backup solutions and a vast array of password management tools available across all platforms. Just because Apple bakes some in, and synchs stuff between their own desktop and mobile operating systems, doesn't make them better, its just an option some people prefer.
And I can't believe someone trotted out the MSDOS nonsense argument, especially with Powershell and WSL. Again, not better, just different options.

 

[maflynn]

The next version of Windows is likely going to be on Linux

Do you have any proof od that?

You may be confusing the Linux subsystem that runs inside windows, not the other way around

 

[badsimian]

And to answer your question - Acer Swift 3 will drive 5k display. And you can buy two of them for the price of single, base 13'' macbook pro.

It doesn't have thunderbolt. Apple's solution to a single cable 5K display is to drive dual-link SST over a TB3 cable. The swift cannot do this. It might be possible to hook up the swift and have it drive the 5K display at 4K maybe?..I seem to remember the newer refreshed Lg 5K's allow this...

 

[PeterJP]

There are of course any number of backup solutions and a vast array of password management tools available across all platforms. Just because Apple bakes some in, and synchs stuff between their own desktop and mobile operating systems, doesn't make them better, its just an option some people prefer.
And I can't believe someone trotted out the MSDOS nonsense argument, especially with Powershell and WSL. Again, not better, just different options.

You're entirely missing the point. Yes, you can do everything that a mac can on Windows. But you have to work at it, and sometimes really hard, to get close to what the mac offers straight out of the box. WSL? I looked into it long and hard, testing whether I could get a non-Apple laptop and do what I do every day. WSL1 is basically a slow virtual machine with no integration with Windows whatsoever. WSL2 is supposedly better, but you might as well just run a VM and not bother with trying to get it to work. I might as well get myself an XPS 13 DE with Linux and run macos or Windows in a VM, it might be better integrated than WSL.

On a mac? Commercial desktop apps + full command line perfectly integrated. Out of the box.

 

[Thysanoptera]

Catalina still supports nVidia Kepler. Meaning... GTX Titan still works right out of the box. I don't think you know what you are talking about.

This is 8 years old architecture. 8 years, come on! You can't access 80% of the GPU market on MacOS because Apple says so.

Also I don't think you even know what it takes to drive the LG Ultrafine 5K via a single Thunderbolt 3 port.

So, a monitor model designed for Apple, that is not officially supported under Windows, requires some trickery to work under Windows. And that's somehow Windows fault. Interesting. Try a Dell, or HP next time.

So with that said, are you absolutely sure the Acer Swift 3 is up to the task? I could not find any information at all on what Thunderbolt 3 controller it's using, but the MX 250 GPU it uses does not seem to fit the bill for the LG Ultrafine 5K.

It doesn't have thunderbolt. Apple's solution to a single cable 5K display is to drive dual-link SST over a TB3 cable. The swift cannot do this. It might be possible to hook up the swift and have it drive the 5K display at 4K maybe?..I seem to remember the newer refreshed Lg 5K's allow this...

It has Ice Lake CPU, that's all you need.

 

[badsimian]

This is 8 years old architecture. 8 years, come on! You can't access 80% of the GPU market on MacOS because Apple says so.

So, a monitor model designed for Apple, that is not officially supported under Windows, requires some trickery to work under Windows. And that's somehow Windows fault. Interesting. Try a Dell, or HP next time.


It has Ice Lake CPU, that's all you need.

No - you need a port which can handle the bandwidth for the signal too. Ice lake isn't much use if all you have is a USB-C 3.1 port to attempt to drive a 5K display with.

 

[drinkingtea]

Now, I don't use Mac OS anymore, not because I think Mac OS is bad or anything, I just find Apples hardware to be lacking for my needs and wants.

But I do think that @AustinIllini is correct. Windows is inherently broken. And I can clarify my position, and will try to do so now in simple and straightforward terms. If you need more clarification, please, say so, I will do my best.

1) Windows is still using registry.
Registry was considered a nice concept. A centralized solution for something like .plist on mac. But that nice idea is still haunting MS till this day. You can't maintain registry, it will get bloated over time, no matter what you do. And there are no limits for developers, so one app can make registry entry that another app can override/delete/etc.

So those conflicts make registry inherently unstable, hence the crashes of apps or even Windows themselves that no one can explain.

2) You can't move user folder easily to different location. For example, moving entire user folder on any linux distro or MacOS is a piece of cake. Or even moving installed apps. Try doing that on windows 10. Have fun

3) Updates
If you look at popular operating systems these days, from iOS/Android, to Mac OS, Linux and Windows... Everyone of those has easy updates that take little time and no effort at all. Every one of those. Except Windows 10. Being backwards compatible, there are layers upon layers stacked up in Windows 10, and updates are a complete mess. They can ruin drivers, user defined settings, or not even boot at all. Not to mention that they can take up entire night to actually update.

4) Privacy/Flexibility/Security/Stability
Yes, privacy. Windows 10 is completely anti privacy. And things aren't going to get better, since Windows 10 is becoming a service.

With linux for example, you can do literally whatever you want. And it's way more secure, it's more stable, and it's most of linux distros aren't bloated like windows. Just look at windows 10 install size.

Download anything larger that is archived in multi rar/zip/etc files. Try extracting that on windows, then try on linux. On the same computer, with the same hardware, it's not even a race. Why? NTFS.

I could go on and on... From lousy File Explorer, to why MS uses drive letters, etc. Actually, while we are at drive letters, those predate even MS-DOS. Drives A: and B: are reserved for floppy drives. Even today. That's why your windows 10 install is on C: drive. Because A&B are reserved for floppy drives.

Now, is Windows 10 just bad? Of course not. I find it silly to argue which OS is better or worse. Use what you can, or what you want, or what you need. When I'm developing .NET applications, I use windows. I could theoretically do that on Linux as well, but why bother? .NET is made for windows, runs great on windows, so I use windows on that occasion.

All OS have their flaws. I just find Windows 10 to be really outdated, slow, bloated and clunky. But some of my coworkers find it great. To each their own I guess

I’m considering getting a Surface Laptop or a Surface Pro. What specific privacy issues does Microsoft have that I need to be aware of?

 

[Thysanoptera]

No - you need a port which can handle the bandwidth for the signal too. Ice lake isn't much use if all you have is a USB-C 3.1 port to attempt to drive a 5K display with.

I kind of get that's Apple forum and no Apple product has Ice Lake CPU, but still, short google search would tell you that every Ice Lake CPU has thunderbolt controller integrated on the die. Two of them actually in U series.

 

[vinegarshots]

If people want to use Windows let them, if people want to use MacOS let them. Why put all this wasted energy in trying to convince them otherwise? In the end an OS is just a tool. People use the tool that works for them. Are you just as fanatical about the brand of your hammer?

I dont think you realize that I’ve owned and operated Windows PCs for the past 25 years. I’d say I’m full qualified to complain about the OS. 🤪

 

[PeterJP]

I’m considering getting a Surface Laptop or a Surface Pro. What specific privacy issues does Microsoft have that I need to be aware of?

A quick google search pops us this in Wikipedia. Also, I’m personally not a fan of an OS that uses *my* start menu to display advertisements

 

[Burebista]

I’ve owned a Surface Pro 4 since 2016.

About 2-3 months in a third of the screen just seized responding to touch after I wiped it with a microfiber cloth. The service center refused to acknowledge it as a warranty case due to some alleged “mechanical impact”. Again, I did nothing but wipe it, no drops or anything. I couldn’t justify spending a ton of money to replace the touchscreen (and feeling resentment to do so), so had to adjust to 1/3 of it being non operational.

It’s still ok in a laptop mode, and in some cases as a tablet. Love the kickstand, wish the iPad had one. Very good keyboard, speakers and quality of screen. But I’ll never buy another piece of MS hardware again, it’s too fragile for the price in my experience.

 

[bill-p]

This is 8 years old architecture. 8 years, come on! You can't access 80% of the GPU market on MacOS because Apple says so.

It's not Apple. The reason why Mojave was able to get nVidia GPUs working was because nVidia provided web drivers for Mojave. Guess what, the reason why Catalina has not been able to get those GPUs working is because nVidia did not provide drivers. This is on nVidia, not Apple. Unless you're telling us Apple is telling nVidia to not create drivers.

So, a monitor model designed for Apple, that is not officially supported under Windows, requires some trickery to work under Windows. And that's somehow Windows fault. Interesting. Try a Dell, or HP next time.

It's not designed for Apple. The LG Ultrafine 5K uses the full specs of Thunderbolt 3. Apple did not do anything special. It's all of the other PC manufacturers who are not fully supporting Thunderbolt 3.

Did you know your Thunderbolt 3 computers potentially come in multiple flavors? 20gbps, 40gbps, DisplayPort 1.2 or 1.3 or 1.4? It's a lottery. Unless the manufacturer discloses what controller they are using, and... in most cases, they don't.

Is it a Windows problem? Yes, partially. Microsoft is not putting in the right safeguards for Thunderbolt 3, because their own Surface computers do not have Thunderbolt 3. As a result, the OS treats Thunderbolt 3 drivers like foreigners and will flake out whenever you connect/disconnect any random Thunderbolt 3 dock, because... the docks also have varying specifications.

Intel is also to blame because they make Thunderbolt 3 controller chips with various degrees of support. So... no, Ice Lake is not enough.

It's a game of egg and chicken with regards to Thunderbolt 3 on Windows. Microsoft doesn't put in the right amount of support and PC manufacturers don't feel like they should, either.

 

[Thysanoptera]

It's not Apple. The reason why Mojave was able to get nVidia GPUs working was because nVidia provided web drivers for Mojave. Guess what, the reason why Catalina has not been able to get those GPUs working is because nVidia did not provide drivers. This is on nVidia, not Apple. Unless you're telling us Apple is telling nVidia to not create drivers.

Web drivers ended with High Sierra, there are none for Mojave already, you're a little behind. Nvidia was publishing painstaking updates after each incremental MacOS update was breaking the previous ones. I (and Nvidia) am telling you that Apple is not allowing Nvidia to publish drivers. And if you don't believe what Nvidia says - they publish current Solaris drivers for crying out loud, how big is the market for it?

It's not designed for Apple.

RTFM of it. Cover page.

Intel is also to blame because they make Thunderbolt 3 controller chips with various degrees of support. So... no, Ice Lake is not enough.

You asked for a laptop cheaper than MBP that can drive 5k. Don't care about other implementations, gave you one for $600 that can, brand new. 4 lanes/40gbps and DP 1.4 not enough? You can't get more over a single port, Macbook or otherwise.

And the variety of TB implementations ends with IceLake. You will get one solution with it whether you like it or not, but I think everybody will love it. It's rock solid, way better and faster than Alpine/Titan Ridge.

 

[topcat001]

At work we are 99% Dell + Windows, for many years (and iPhones for work). For the most part, the Dell business line has been extremely reliable with great service.

Recently we started issuing Surface Pros as a trial. We had to stop it because there were endless issues both with hardware and software, and Microsoft support is nothing like Dell's. Now they are all gone. So, it seems reliability is a problem.

Btw we also have a couple of Macs (Pro + iMac) used by marketing/design which have been running for years with zero problems.

 

[kingtj]

I worked for a company that issued people Surface Pros as the standard-issue machine if they wanted a Windows computer, and Macbook Pro 13" laptops if they preferred the Mac.

My impression with the Surface Pro is it was a unique and pretty innovative product when Microsoft first got the 3 and 4 series out, but innovation really slowed with each new iteration after that. Prices seemed to go up with new models being virtually indistinguishable from the older ones. You got the latest generation of CPU, of course -- but available configurations changed too. (With the Surface Pro 4, I used to like the version with a Core i7 CPU, 512GB SSD and 16GB of RAM. They got rid of that option later, so you had to pay a huge markup to go 1TB of SSD storage to get more than 8GB of RAM.)

I wouldn't say we saw a huge number of hardware problems with any of them, though we had a few with defects out of the box, including a rear camera that wouldn't function on a couple of them. And as years passed, some had battery problems including a swollen battery that deformed the front screen and popped one corner of it loose.

Biggest hassles I saw with the Surface Pros were the odd crashes where one refused to power back on. Always required holding down buttons for 15-20 seconds followed by pressing power again to force a hard restart. That and a lot of pickiness with multiple monitor support when using the Microsoft Surface Dock.

 

[BayouTiger]

I’ve had a couple Surface Pro’s and they were OK, but both had flaws that made them aggravating to use daily, mostly lousy keyboards. I’ve been predominately a 13” MBP user for ages, and though I tried the MS laptops, a Dell (XPS13 disaster),and an X1Carbon, I always ended up back with Mac. My work life would be easier with a Win10 machine as all the software I have to use is Windows based.

I bought the 13.5” Surface Laptop 3 and it’s a very sweet machine and I thought it was finally going to be the one as everything worked really well. i would say that if it has TB3 it would be damn near perfect, but I wonder as the only PC I ever owned that TB actually worked properly on was the X1C. Actually the X1Carbon is damn near perfect except that I despise 16x9 and will just will not buy another laptop with that screen.

The 16” did seduce me with the i9, 32Gb, and 2TB. What i have found however is that it’s just too much for my needs most of the time. Add that as soon as I plug in my dock and two externals, the heat and fans go nuts. But the thing that has driven me crazy is that it just does not seem to play nice with VMware, which I have used for years. about every few times when I disconnect it from my dock, it refuses to sleep and dies in the bag so I can‘t even work when I pull it out.

So it looks like I am going to give the Surface a shot again. I will have to see if I can live with the Windows shortfalls that always send me back (Spotlight, QuickLook, etc). The other thing (surprisingly) is the awful Windows file system. I am use to things happening instantly when it comes to files, and Windows Explorer is just slow and clunky.

But yes, if they added a working TB3 port the Surface would be damn near perfect. I could add that I don’t give a rats about the touchscreen. I never touch the thing.

 

[kingtj]

I agree about the Dell XPS13. It always seemed SO tempting when you first looked at or picked up one. But Dell never seemed to get it quite right. I bought one, intending to run Linux on it as the primary OS. Nice thing was, it was "certified" for Linux, unlike many modern laptops. But I wound up reselling it after finding I rarely got any use out of it. That webcam located where they put it was just awful.... but also saw a lot of power management issues. Ran too hot with fans spinning up too much in Linux. And really, the X windowing environment never really did font scaling acceptably for its hi-res screen either.

 

[BayouTiger]

I agree about the Dell XPS13. It always seemed SO tempting when you first looked at or picked up one. But Dell never seemed to get it quite right. I bought one, intending to run Linux on it as the primary OS. Nice thing was, it was "certified" for Linux, unlike many modern laptops. But I wound up reselling it after finding I rarely got any use out of it. That webcam located where they put it was just awful.... but also saw a lot of power management issues. Ran too hot with fans spinning up too much in Linux. And really, the X windowing environment never really did font scaling acceptably for its hi-res screen either.

mine would not scale well at all, but to be fair, that was a Win10 issue that is Mostly fixed finally. If I was doing it over, I would have got the 1080P. But it was still 16x9. If you want a Windows machine and are good with the widescreen, I can HIGHLY recommend the Lenovo X1 Carbon. Did absolutely everything right except the aspect.