Haswell GPU

[adjeff8]

I admit I don't know THAT much about this stuff but I've been reading and learning. I've been waiting for the 2nd generation 15" rMBP. I'm willing to wait, I just won't buy 1st gen anything. I started reading about Haswell and that it will bump the CPU and battery 15% or so, but it will bump the GPU by as much as 50%. Which will help greatly in the alleged scroll lag and just help with the Retina display in general. I was discussing this with a more knowledgeable friend when he said "Yes, if they are able to use the BGA version, if not they will ship with a small improved version of the GT or 4000 with a GT2 or 4600. If they don't squeeze the GT3 in it will be 2014 before they can release a truly smooth machine"

What do you guys make of this? Is it possible that Apple may release a "Pre" Haswell or Haswell "Light" type of chip

 

[justperry]

I admit I don't know THAT much about this stuff but I've been reading and learning. I've been waiting for the 2nd generation 15" rMBP. I'm willing to wait, I just won't buy 1st gen anything. I started reading about Haswell and that it will bump the CPU and battery 15% or so, but it will bump the GPU by as much as 50%. Which will help greatly in the alleged scroll lag and just help with the Retina display in general. I was discussing this with a more knowledgeable friend when he said "Yes, if they are able to use the BGA version, if not they will ship with a small improved version of the GT or 4000 with a GT2 or 4600. If they don't squeeze the GT3 in it will be 2014 before they can release a truly smooth machine"

What do you guys make of this? Is it possible that Apple may release a "Pre" Haswell type of chip

It's not the GPU which is responsible for lags, it is the drivers, if you want to research, you should look up posts from knightWRX, the GPU is capable to drive the retina just fine.

Oh, and about first generation, they all are since every time Apple changes something inside it is a new generation.

 

[xxcysxx]

a smooth system is from a well design/optimize os. you can have the best performance hardware, but a poorly written os and it will perform and feel like crap.
the occasionally lag an stutter in the interface is mostly from the "software" video scaling for the retina screen. that is from the post processing overhead of the video scaling. when mac os is better optimize on the video scaling or perhaps implement some better solution other video scaling, it will perform smooth on all retina macs.
by the time haswell is release and you are still running the crappy mountain lion os with the video scaling it will still stutter and lag like today.

this is just a guess, but the perhaps the video scaling is a slow transition to the retina technology. because there are still classic macs with non-retina screen around, the video scaling is necessary to keep os compatibility on both platform. perhaps by the time all macs line are all retina and the os is natively implemented for the higher resolution, post process video scaling wouldn't be necessary anymore and on screen video will be fully hardware driven.

 

[Ploki]

I was discussing this with a more knowledgeable friend when he said "Yes, if they are able to use the BGA version, if not they will ship with a small improved version of the GT or 4000 with a GT2 or 4600. If they don't squeeze the GT3 in it will be 2014 before they can release a truly smooth machine"

What do you guys make of this? Is it possible that Apple may release a "Pre" Haswell or Haswell "Light" type of chip

You gotta be kidding me, really.

It's a computer that can render HD video as fast as 2009 Mac Pro. (3years people, and 20times smaller form factor).

It's a computer that can be used to edit,mix,record surround projects @96Khz without sweating. (trust me, my MBP 2008 could barely handle it but it did), and render normal stereo project in 1/10th of realtime length...

It's a computer that can drive GTA IV more smoothly (with higher resolutions!!) than my old 2008 8 Core mac pro with GT8800 (a card that is as big as the whole logic board of this macbook is.)

And because it cannot smoothly scroll through FACEBOOK, it suddenly isn't powerful enough. (?!?)

Call me naive, but I'd imagine rendering HD Video and rendering GTA IV @retina resolution is a bit more tasking than facebook, so something else must be in the wrongs here, not the hardware. Just my guess.

 

[adjeff8]

You gotta be kidding me, really.

It's a computer that can render HD video as fast as 2009 Mac Pro. (3years people, and 20times smaller form factor).

It's a computer that can be used to edit,mix,record surround projects @96Khz without sweating. (trust me, my MBP 2008 could barely handle it but it did), and render normal stereo project in 1/10th of realtime length...

It's a computer that can drive GTA IV more smoothly (with higher resolutions!!) than my old 2008 8 Core mac pro with GT8800 (a card that is as big as the whole logic board of this macbook is.)

And because it cannot smoothly scroll through FACEBOOK, it suddenly isn't powerful enough. (?!?)

Call me naive, but I'd imagine rendering HD Video and rendering GTA IV @retina resolution is a bit more tasking than facebook, so something else must be in the wrongs here, not the hardware. Just my guess.

Really wasn't my question, and I don't use Facebook. I don't own the retina, I've just been reading the things posted on sites like this. Most people seem thrilled with their machine, but there are people saying otherwise. Regardless, I won't buy until 2nd generation. Which leads me to the question that I asked.

My friend stated something that I have no clue about and I was wondering if any of you know anything about WHEN the Haswell comes out will it be GT3 or will it be GT2? And what will that really mean?

 

[Ploki]

Really wasn't my question, and I don't use Facebook. I don't own the retina, I've just been reading the things posted on sites like this. Most people seem thrilled with their machine, but there are people saying otherwise. Regardless, I won't buy until 2nd generation. Which leads me to the question that I asked.

My friend stated something that I have no clue about and I was wondering if any of you know anything about WHEN the Haswell comes out will it be GT3 or will it be GT2? And what will that really mean?

It has nothing to do with the 15" rMBP which has discrete graphics processor.

GT1 GT2 GT3 are different tiers (monikers) for Haswell integrated graphics processing.

GT1 is "kinda" like HD2000, GT2 is HD4600, GT3 is twice GT2 or something like that...

They are just different monikers, nothing else.

And they ALL are inferior to 650M which is in current rMBP 15".

They could be good enough though for apple to introduce an entrylevel rMBP 15" without a discrete GPU.

 

[adjeff8]

It has nothing to do with the 15" rMBP which has discrete graphics processor.

GT1 GT2 GT3 are different tiers (monikers) for Haswell integrated graphics processing.

GT1 is "kinda" like HD2000, GT2 is HD4600, GT3 is twice GT2 or something like that...

They are just different monikers, nothing else.

And they ALL are inferior to 650M which is in current rMBP 15".

They could be good enough though for apple to introduce an entrylevel rMBP 15" without a discrete GPU.

So what you are telling me is the guy that I was talking to didn't really know what he was talking about or was mistaken when he said the Retina won't really be a smooth machine until it has GT3?

 

[Mr MM]

So what you are telling me is the guy that I was talking to didn't really know what he was talking about or was mistaken when he said the Retina won't really be a smooth machine until it has GT3?

he doesnt know what he is talking about.

and apparently all the cpus that are in BGA form carry the gt3, the line up for mobile cpus is confusing right now, with lots of unconfirmed info and so forth.

 

[leman]

So what you are telling me is the guy that I was talking to didn't really know what he was talking about or was mistaken when he said the Retina won't really be a smooth machine until it has GT3?

I don't see how faster GPU would make retina MBP any smoother. As far as filtrate/texturing performance goes, the current generation is more then fast enough already. Desktop compositing at high resolutions depends a lot on memory speeds and less on computation capability. Integrated processors have an edge here - because they use system RAM, the graphics driver can optimise texture access (generally, there is no need to copy the data from the CPU to the GPU domain). A bigger cache/higher memory throughput might help though.

What retina dekstop composition ultimately needs is not a faster GPU but better programming. My favourite example is resizing lag in Apple Mail and App Store. In contrast, Calendar - an application hardly less visually complex - resizes and scrolls absolutely smoothly. Similar, WebKit nightly builds are much smoother than Safari or Firefox 18...

 

[Ploki]

So what you are telling me is the guy that I was talking to didn't really know what he was talking about or was mistaken when he said the Retina won't really be a smooth machine until it has GT3?

If anything that would apply to 13" - but the critique is often also about the 15" which has more than capable GPU (significantly overclocked GT650m), even more than GT3 incarnation of Haswell will be.

 

[Mr MM]

as an addendum, the cpus that apple use are the BGA ones.

btw we still dont even have the entire line up of the cpus that are going to be launched.

 

[jav6454]

It's not the GPU which is responsible for lags, it is the drivers, if you want to research, you should look up posts from knightWRX, the GPU is capable to drive the retina just fine.

Oh, and about first generation, they all are since every time Apple changes something inside it is a new generation.

Thats what everyone is learned to think, but in reality nVidia's junk isn't enough.

 

[leman]

Thats what everyone is learned to think, but in reality nVidia's junk isn't enough.

Riiight... the GPU can smoothly render complex 3d games with dozens of thousands polygons, hundreds of texture applications per on those polygons per frame - I am not even starting about per-pixel computations, and you are trying to convince us that its unable to draw a few rectangles on a slightly bigger different rectangle?

 

[jav6454]

Riiight... the GPU can smoothly render complex 3d games with dozens of thousands polygons, hundreds of texture applications per on those polygons per frame - I am not even starting about per-pixel computations, and you are trying to convince us that its unable to draw a few rectangles on a slightly bigger different rectangle?

Clearly drinking the Apple Kool-aid... want some more?

 

[duervo]

I wouldn't go as far to say that your friend doesn't know what they're talking about. I would say it's more that they don't have all of the facts. If they had more information on the particulars of why video lags a bit in the first 15" rMBP, they will probably adjust the reasons behind their recommendation, but the recommendation would stay the same ... Wait until the first 15" rMBP "refresh".

For example, one of the reasons (and perhaps the only reason) behind lag in web browsing is a bug in Safari. This bug is fixed in the current WebKit nightly build, which in turn is probably going to be distributed with Safari fixes that are currently under test in the OS X 10.8.3 beta.

My recommendation would be to wait until OS X 10.8.3 is released. Then, go to an Apple store and ask to be shown a 15" rMBP that has been updated to 10.8.3, and see how it performs for you. If you notice any video performance that you don't like, then wait until the next 15" rMBP refresh.

 

[SDAVE]

Either way, Haswell will include Intel HD4000+, so it's not going to be a HUGE jump from the current Ivy Bridge IGP.

Also, you can do A LOT on the current rMBP, so what's your complaint op? Get the Refurb rMBP for $1800 and enjoy it.

 

[Ploki]

Clearly drinking the Apple Kool-aid... want some more?

Chill out.

2880*1800 is a lot, but still not enough to stress a decent GPU. 2560*1440 iMacs have been around for a while on shabbier GPUs.

Radeon HD4670 was used to drive the 27" iMac, and it's crap compared to 650m.

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Comparison-of-Graphic-Cards.130.0.html

 

[jav6454]

Chill out.

2880*1800 is a lot, but still not enough to stress a decent GPU. 2560*1440 iMacs have been around for a while on shabbier GPUs.

Radeon HD4670 was used to drive the 27" iMac, and it's crap compared to 650m.

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Comparison-of-Graphic-Cards.130.0.html

True, but it ran at the native resolution, not a "retina" resolution which stresses things further.

 

[Ploki]

True, but it ran at the native resolution, not a "retina" resolution which stresses things further.

How does it stress things further exactly?

 

[N19h7m4r3]

How does it stress things further exactly?

What he means is that we're not running at 2880x1800. If you choose looks like 1920x1800, you're actually running at 3840x2400, with the text and everything pixel doubled to make it all legible. That means the GPU is doing more than it would at 2560x1440 or even 2880x1800.

I have seen that even with that the GT650 is not taxed as much as some think. The HD4000 IGP is a different story though, I do get the odd bit of scroll lag, although people are saying that it's been fixed in the new webkit nitely update, which should be complete and integrated in the next Safari update.

 

[AndreasM]

I was under the same impression as adjeff8. That Haswell will be all about GPU and battery life. I'm currently waiting for the next gen of the 13 inch mbpr. But I'm a bit confused after reading this thread. The Haswell GPU boost were my backup plan if Apple still skip dedicated graphics in the 2nd gen of the 13 inch. But now suddenly people say that you shouldn't expect any major differences in GPU between ivy and haswell. So whats left, will it only be better battery life. Sounds very strange.

Too bad that Intel isn't releasing any info or benches of Haswell on CES.

 

[Ploki]

What he means is that we're not running at 2880x1800. If you choose looks like 1920x1800, you're actually running at 3840x2400, with the text and everything pixel doubled to make it all legible. That means the GPU is doing more than it would at 2560x1440 or even 2880x1800.

I have seen that even with that the GT650 is not taxed as much as some think. The HD4000 IGP is a different story though, I do get the odd bit of scroll lag, although people are saying that it's been fixed in the new webkit nitely update, which should be complete and integrated in the next Safari update.

If you choose. Big IF there.

If you don't however, it makes no sense for it to be anything else than shoddy programming.

 

[jav6454]

I was under the same impression as adjeff8. That Haswell will be all about GPU and battery life. I'm currently waiting for the next gen of the 13 inch mbpr. But I'm a bit confused after reading this thread. The Haswell GPU boost were my backup plan if Apple still skip dedicated graphics in the 2nd gen of the 13 inch. But now suddenly people say that you shouldn't expect any major differences in GPU between ivy and haswell. So whats left, will it only be better battery life. Sounds very strange.

Too bad that Intel isn't releasing any info or benches of Haswell on CES.

Haswell is battery life and power usage under heave optimizations in compute.

 

[N19h7m4r3]

If you choose. Big IF there.

If you don't however, it makes no sense for it to be anything else than shoddy programming.

Like I said the rest of my post even then the GPU doesn't have problems and that webkit's nightly build has fixed problems, which implies it's a software issue; aka "shoddy programming" as you say.

 

[jav6454]

Like I said the rest of my post even then the GPU doesn't have problems and that webkit's nightly build has fixed problems, which implies it's a software issue; aka "shoddy programming" as you say.

Unluckily we will have to wait another full year before we see any real performance increases on the GPU side. Newer versions of GPUs (8000M and 700M series) are going to be rebadges of the current generation.