Haswell GPU

[Ploki]

Like I said the rest of my post even then the GPU doesn't have problems and that webkit's nightly build has fixed problems, which implies it's a software issue; aka "shoddy programming" as you say.

Spot on

Unluckily we will have to wait another full year before we see any real performance increases on the GPU side. Newer versions of GPUs (8000M and 700M series) are going to be rebadges of the current generation.

Performance increases in scrolling through Facebook frontpage?

This thing packs more than 2008 Mac Pro on all fronts that could drive 4 displays without a hitch (>> more pixels!). Are you seriously still telling me that the lag is a hardware issue?

 

[adjeff8]

Either way, Haswell will include Intel HD4000+, so it's not going to be a HUGE jump from the current Ivy Bridge IGP.

Also, you can do A LOT on the current rMBP, so what's your complaint op? Get the Refurb rMBP for $1800 and enjoy it.

I don't really have a complaint. Just trying to wrap my mind around this stuff. Just asking questions in the hopes that some day I will understand things that in reality I don't really need to understand. In reality my needs are more than covered. Surfing the Web, Office, Pages etc, and Film Production software such as Movie Magic Scheduling. But I only buy a computer once every 4 years and I want the best I can get for the large sum of money I am spending. At the very least I figure they will Dbl the SSD and do some other magical thing to justify the refresh. I mean....I've waited this long, so I might as wellcarry the ball to the goal line

 

[N19h7m4r3]

Performance increases in scrolling through Facebook frontpage?

This thing packs more than 2008 Mac Pro on all fronts that could drive 4 displays without a hitch (>> more pixels!). Are you seriously still telling me that the lag is a hardware issue?

I have to agree with this, I have the same odd lag/stutter when scrolling in safari, even when I also have my external monitor with a res of 2560x1440 plugged in at the same time.

I also have no problem playing Borderlands 2 at 1920x1200, just with dynamic lighting, FXAA and ambient occlusion off. It's buttery smooth, I'd say the GT650 does a great job in that regard. The GPU certainly has a lot of grunt for a mid ranged mobile GPU.

Yes I'd like an even more powerful GPU, but it's hardly going to help for Safari scrolling issues. Especially since a dev build of Safari has shown that it's fixed by software.

 

[AndreasM]

I don't really have a complaint. Just trying to wrap my mind around this stuff. Just asking questions in the hopes that some day I will understand things that in reality I don't really need to understand. In reality my needs are more than covered. Surfing the Web, Office, Pages etc, and Film Production software such as Movie Magic Scheduling. But I only buy a computer once every 4 years and I want the best I can get for the large sum of money I am spending. At the very least I figure they will Dbl the SSD and do some other magical thing to justify the refresh. I mean....I've waited this long, so I might as wellcarry the ball to the goal line

I'm just worried that you, me and others will wait until summer and it will only be dbl SSD and CPU upgrade to Haswell and no magic. I don't care about the dbl SSD and if Haswell wont be a major performance boost then I'm pretty sure that I will be really disapointed that I waited half a year for the 2:nd gen.

 

[jav6454]

Spot on



Performance increases in scrolling through Facebook frontpage?

This thing packs more than 2008 Mac Pro on all fronts that could drive 4 displays without a hitch (>> more pixels!). Are you seriously still telling me that the lag is a hardware issue?

Just because your main usage is Facebook (I still don't get why people buy a Mac just for FaceBook).... it doesn't make it everyone else's.

Stop pretending to guess people's usage and instead ask. Yes, the 2008 Mac Pro, a 4 year old machine with hardware from 2007. Thats a good comparison...

I have to agree with this, I have the same odd lag/stutter when scrolling in safari, even when I also have my external monitor with a res of 2560x1440 plugged in at the same time.

I also have no problem playing Borderlands 2 at 1920x1200, just with dynamic lighting, FXAA and ambient occlusion off. It's buttery smooth, I'd say the GT650 does a great job in that regard. The GPU certainly has a lot of grunt for a mid ranged mobile GPU.

Yes I'd like an even more powerful GPU, but it's hardly going to help for Safari scrolling issues. Especially since a dev build of Safari has shown that it's fixed by software.

Everyone is running games and stuff at resolutions that GPU can easily handle. However, make it run under the full pixel quantity and it will choke. Try to run Crysis at full resolution and 4x AA and I assure you it will choke. Any game at full resolutions that is GPU bound (several, see Anandtech's usual GPU test games) will choke it.

That is just games. Not to mention other 3D applications that don't see "retina" but see the full spectrum of the display.


Current desktop GPUs are just about (just cracking it) catching up to work seamlessly at 2560x1600.

 

[dusk007]

Everyone is running games and stuff at resolutions that GPU can easily handle. However, make it run under the full pixel quantity and it will choke. Try to run Crysis at full resolution and 4x AA and I assure you it will choke. Any game at full resolutions that is GPU bound (several, see Anandtech's usual GPU test games) will choke it.

That is just games. Not to mention other 3D applications that don't see "retina" but see the full spectrum of the display.


Current desktop GPUs are just about (just cracking it) catching up to work seamlessly at 2560x1600.

Quite a few games also run just fine at full resolution. Higher Res often hurts performance even less than higher details. 5 years ago you could easily run multiple displays of 1-2 GPUs that had in total just as many pixels. The GPU were much slower and there was no problem.

The thing is 2D Web Rendering consists of a lot of dependent objects. How one looks depends on the other. Therefore the render path is usually quite serial in nature and the parallel execution of a GPU don't matter at all but the CPU can be the bottle neck just as much. With a bit of a semi optimized implementation one ends up at poor performance.
The ipad3 afaik scrolls just fine and its GPU+CPU performance doesn't even compare to what you have in a 15" rMBP. The pixels aren't so far off.
Driving those pixels is no issue at all, there is some other problem. A faster GPU is the last thing that will fix anything.

 

[N19h7m4r3]

That's just it though, running at 2880x1800 or 3840x2400 for browsing is not stressing the GPU nearly as much as you think.
You even just stated that games and 3D graphical heavy work won't work at 2880x1800, even so that's not the issue at hand. Just like you've said that current discrete GPU's are only getting comfy at high res. Although my GTX 470 runs 2560x1440 fine for games and the GTX 680 easily eats through them.

This entire thing is down to scroll lag though, and that is not the GPU or iGP's problem. It's a software issue, as shown that it is already fixed in Webkit's Nightly build, which means the next version of Safari will be properly smooth as well.

 

[adjeff8]

I'm just worried that you, me and others will wait until summer and it will only be dbl SSD and CPU upgrade to Haswell and no magic. I don't care about the dbl SSD and if Haswell wont be a major performance boost then I'm pretty sure that I will be really disapointed that I waited half a year for the 2:nd gen.

But we'll still have the 2nd generation. There's bound to be some kinks worked out. I would be sooo bummed if I bought the first Gen iPad, which I wanted to do. The first gen iPhone was more or less a guiniea pig model. Never owned it. Since we are here, might as well wait. Although I'm sure it's the 3rd gen Retina that will knock our socks off. But I just can't wait that long. My 2009 15" MBP is dying. I can stretch it out for 6-8 months. It will not last 1 1/2 years

 

[JamonBull]

But we'll still have the 2nd generation. There's bound to be some kinks worked out. I would be sooo bummed if I bought the first Gen iPad, which I wanted to do. The first gen iPhone was more or less a guiniea pig model. Never owned it. Since we are here, might as well wait. Although I'm sure it's the 3rd gen Retina that will knock our socks off. But I just can't wait that long. My 2009 15" MBP is dying. I can stretch it out for 6-8 months. It will not last 1 1/2 years

I'm in a very similar boat as you but am using a 2011 MacBook Air. Been very hard on this machine as I'm a teacher and carry it from class to class, always on it. My next Mac is definitely going to be Haswell and will either be a maxed out 13" Pro or a low to mid end 15". Can't decide for the life of me. I do plan on buying a very high end 27" iMac too for gaming so I think the portability AND power combination in the 13" Pro will win me over. Only thing that holds me back is how everyone gushes over the discrete GPU of the 15". I wonder, if one isn't gaming or doing hardcore video editing, is it REALLY that appealing?

 

[Newfiejudd]

Current desktop GPUs are just about (just cracking it) catching up to work seamlessly at 2560x1600.

No they aren't. A current GTX680 with 4gb of video ram can run just about any game at 5760x1080. I game with three monitors and the power one gpu is holding now is pretty damn impressive. ATI cards are even making full use of gpu architecture now with recent driver updates.

The only game I struggle with is Metro 2033. Everything else runs butter smooth. Even BF3 runs smooth on one GPU. Go SLI and your blown away by visuals.

 

[jav6454]

No they aren't. A current GTX680 with 4gb of video ram can run just about any game at 5760x1080. I game with three monitors and the power one gpu is holding now is pretty damn impressive. ATI cards are even making full use of gpu architecture now with recent driver updates.

The only game I struggle with is Metro 2033. Everything else runs butter smooth. Even BF3 runs smooth on one GPU. Go SLI and your blown away by visuals.

Yes, SLI or Crossfire, dual GPU to make it work. Sounds like a plan on a Mac....


Anyways, yes, large buffers help run, but you said it. They can run them, but what about performance run them? No, they can't. See below

As you can see, the GTX 680 can barely cross the 30fps threshold of games. Obviously it comes from a 2008 game and spawner of so many cliches, but stands to show how performance is still lacking. Now, then, try to run a mobile GPU on this seems performance markers on the same games and yes, they will choke.

Now, I can give you the performance numbers without AA, but then again, that'd not be the same as AA is what really stresses the architecture.

However, lets go with something else, like Metro

More or less same result, cutting it past 35fps. But still not enough quality at large resolutions.

 

[Ploki]

Just because your main usage is Facebook (I still don't get why people buy a Mac just for FaceBook).... it doesn't make it everyone else's.

Stop pretending to guess people's usage and instead ask. Yes, the 2008 Mac Pro, a 4 year old machine with hardware from 2007. Thats a good comparison...



Everyone is running games and stuff at resolutions that GPU can easily handle. However, make it run under the full pixel quantity and it will choke. Try to run Crysis at full resolution and 4x AA and I assure you it will choke. Any game at full resolutions that is GPU bound (several, see Anandtech's usual GPU test games) will choke it.

That is just games. Not to mention other 3D applications that don't see "retina" but see the full spectrum of the display.


Current desktop GPUs are just about (just cracking it) catching up to work seamlessly at 2560x1600.

It is a good comparison - it handles facebook better than the retina although it's not as powerful.
It handles 4 fullHD displays without problems, although it doesn't have nearly as powerful monitor.

I personally don't even HAVE facebook, but facebook has been one of the major points of complaints against lag on the rMBP. I use it for lots of other stuff - the OC'd 650m has been the most powerful GPU MBP has seen to this date...

 

[Newfiejudd]

Yes, SLI or Crossfire, dual GPU to make it work. Sounds like a plan on a Mac....


Anyways, yes, large buffers help run, but you said it. They can run them, but what about performance run them? No, they can't. See below

Image

As you can see, the GTX 680 can barely cross the 30fps threshold of games. Obviously it comes from a 2008 game and spawner of so many cliches, but stands to show how performance is still lacking. Now, then, try to run a mobile GPU on this seems performance markers on the same games and yes, they will choke.

Now, I can give you the performance numbers without AA, but then again, that'd not be the same as AA is what really stresses the architecture.

However, lets go with something else, like Metro

Image

More or less same result, cutting it past 35fps. But still not enough quality at large resolutions.

I agree with you fully. My point is that an IGP has a very long ways to go before out paces a dedicated GPU. Intel has a very long road ahead of them. And the way Nvidia and ATI have always just 1 upped each other slightly is due to money, and keeping the steady stream flowing. I think when Intel gets close the red and green team will up the stakes. I wouldn't be surprised if the tech is just sitting there ready for them to go in production. Nvidia's lineup for 2014 is looking to double the bandwidth from current generations.

I often laugh at people who play console games and think the graphics are truly mind blowing. There is no comparison from console to high end Desktop gaming. (Well unless it's just another console port from Ubisoft, but that's another topic) When a game is developed for the PC from the ground up such as the original Crysis, what it can do is epic. I just wish more gaming companies would do the same as Crysis did. It really pushed the hardware manufacturers to push that much further.

The one thing I really hope Intel will do is drive the price of these dedicated GPU's down. 600-700$ for a GPU is outrageous, I'm really really looking forward to some competition is this area.

 

[jav6454]

It is a good comparison - it handles facebook better than the retina although it's not as powerful.
It handles 4 fullHD displays without problems, although it doesn't have nearly as powerful monitor.

I personally don't even HAVE facebook, but facebook has been one of the major points of complaints against lag on the rMBP. I use it for lots of other stuff - the OC'd 650m has been the most powerful GPU MBP has seen to this date...

But I never stated facebook as any type of relevant benchmark. I don't know why people think FaceBook lags determines GPU power. Not in the slightest. Please lets leave Facebook out of this discussion.

I often laugh at people who play console games and think the graphics are truly mind blowing. There is no comparison from console to high end Desktop gaming. (Well unless it's just another console port from Ubisoft, but that's another topic) When a game is developed for the PC from the ground up such as the original Crysis, what it can do is epic. I just wish more gaming companies would do the same as Crysis did. It really pushed the hardware manufacturers to push that much further.

The one thing I really hope Intel will do is drive the price of these dedicated GPU's down. 600-700$ for a GPU is outrageous, I'm really really looking forward to some competition is this area.

You know the sad part of all this? Crytek have started to abandoned the PC gamers, Crysis is no longer that game known for its killer graphics. It has been dumbed down to be able to fit into the engines of the PS3 and XBox360. Crysis 2 was no where near the baffling advancements Crytek made with the original Crysis. It seemed like a small update compared to what people expected. Because of this GPU vendors are now taking it easily as they no longer have that goal to say "MY GPU IS THE ONE WHICH RAN CRYSIS AT FULL LEVEL!!" I promise you when Crysis comes back to its former glory we will see a huge jump in GPU performance and maybe then, a GPU good enough for the Retina MBP.

 

[Ploki]

But I never stated facebook as any type of relevant benchmark. I don't know why people think FaceBook lags determines GPU power. Not in the slightest. Please lets leave Facebook out of this discussion.

scrolling on FB - 20FPS
Diablo 2 @2800*1880 - 30FPS