Have you ever thought your plane would crash?

[Huntn]

Having made a career of flying, I’ve ridden in the back (that’s all I do now ) and imagined the plane rolling into a 130 degree bank from level, would I maintain my composure? I assume so, but honestly I’ve never faced a close possible scape with death where I’ve had time to think about it. At altitude, it would be a very traumatizing, long plummet. As a rule, I don’t think about it, although by statistics you should be more worried when driving your car. Best not to think about it.

As a teen, I did flip end over end in a 1970 1/2 Camaro doing about 80-90ish when we left the road, (passenger) but there the lights went out, and I woke up with short term memory loss, but do remember leaving asphalt onto gravel. Suffered a mild concussion and broken front teeth.

 

[Huntn]

Not to scare you (this could happen on *any* airline), but take a look at this:

----------------------------
ACN: 611329 (1 of 1)

Time / Day

Date : 200403
Local Time Of Day : 0601 To 1200
Day : Thu


Place

Locale Reference.Airport : DEN.Airport
State Reference : CO
Altitude.MSL.Single Value : 35000


Environment

Flight Conditions : VMC
Light : Daylight


Aircraft : 1

Controlling Facilities.ARTCC : ZDV.ARTCC
Operator.Common Carrier : Air Carrier
Make Model Name : A319
Operating Under FAR Part : Part 121
Flight Phase.Descent : Approach
Flight Phase.Descent : Intermediate Altitude
Flight Phase.Descent : Vacating Altitude
Flight Plan : IFR


Person : 1

Affiliation.Company : Air Carrier
Function.Flight Crew : Captain
Function.Oversight : PIC
Qualification.Pilot : ATP
Qualification.Pilot : Commercial
Qualification.Pilot : Instrument
Qualification.Pilot : Multi Engine
Experience.Flight Time.Last 90 Days : 200
Experience.Flight Time.Total : 17000
Experience.Flight Time.Type : 330
ASRS Report : 611329


Person : 2

Affiliation.Company : Air Carrier
Function.Flight Crew : First Officer


Person : 3

Affiliation.Government : FAA
Function.Controller : Radar


Events

Anomaly.Non Adherence : FAR
Independent Detector.Other.Flight CrewA
Resolutory Action.None Taken : Detected After The Fact
Consequence.Other : Company Review


Assessments

Problem Areas : Company
Problem Areas : Flight Crew Human Performance
Problem Areas : FAA
Primary Problem : Flight Crew Human Performance


Situations


Narrative

HAD BEEN DOING 4 MONTHS OF STAND-UP'S. LATE RPT, FLY TO DFW ARRIVE AT
XA30 AND GO TO MOTEL AND REST APPROX 8 HRS. SHOW AT XH00, FLY BACK TO
DEN. FOR THE MONTH OF MARCH, HAD A SCHEDULE CHANGE TO 'RED EYES,'
WHICH CONSISTS OF LEAVING DEN AT XA50, FLY TO BWI AND 1 HR TURN-BACK
TO DEN. NO REST, JUST STRAIGHT 7 HRS 55 MINS FLT TO BALTIMORE AND
BACK. ON THIS PARTICULAR DAY (MAR/THU/04) AFTER 2 PREVIOUS RED EYES,
THIS BEING THIRD RED EYE IN A ROW, LAST 45 MINS OF FLT I FELL ASLEEP
AND SO DID THE FO. MISSED ALL CALLS FROM ATC TO MEET XING RESTR AT
DANDD INTXN IN THE SE CORRIDOR TO DEN. THE XING RESTR BEING DANDD AT
FL190 AND 250 KTS. INSTEAD, WE CROSSED DANDD AT FL350 AND MACH .82. I
WOKE UP, WHY I DON'T KNOW, AND HEARD FRANTIC CALLS FROM ATC APPROX 5
DME INSIDE OF DANDD. I ANSWERED ATC AND ABIDED BY ALL INSTRUCTIONS TO
GET DOWN. WOKE FO UP, STARTED DOWN TO FL220 AS INSTRUCTED, EXPEDITING
TO FL220 AND THEN TO 14000 FT WITH TURNS TO 360 DEGS AND THEN TO 180
DEGS. FINISHED ALL CHKLISTS AND LANDED IN DEN WITH NO FURTHER
INCIDENTS. WAS NOT TOLD TO CALL ATC, BUT DID FILE RPT WITH COMPANY.
ATTRIBUTE INCIDENT TO PLT FATIGUE, AND HOPEFULLY COMPANY IS IN PROCESS
OF CHANGING THESE TRIP PAIRINGS.

Synopsis

AN ACR FLT CREW SLEEPS THROUGH THEIR DSCNT CLRNC 60 MI SE OF DENVER.
ONCE THEY WERE AWAKENED BY 'FRANTIC' CALLS FROM ATC, A SUCCESSFUL ARR
WAS COMPLETED.
-----------------------------

This was Frontier. Just pointing this out to illustrate that no airline is completely guilt-free.

Replying to an old post, but the airlines have made strides in assuring pilots get adequate rest after fatigue related accidents.

 

[LizKat]

Having made a career of flying, I’ve ridden in the back (that’s all I do now ) and imagined the plane rolling into a 130 degree bank from level, would I maintain my composure? I assume so, but honestly I’ve never faced a close possible scape with death where I’ve had time to think about it. At altitude, it would be a very traumatizing, long plummet. As a rule, I don’t think about it, although by statistics you should be more worried when driving your car. Best not to think about it.

It's interesting to think about commercial pilots becoming "just passengers". Does it ever feel like you feel as a parent and experienced driver... when your kid is in the driver's seat, licensed but with minimal experience and you see some other driver doing stupid **** in the oncoming, or at an intersection ahead?

 

[Healer Flame]

At times I have been pretty worried about it

I worry about it for the whole trip. I have air and sea phobia to some extent but its not that big.

I'd rather die suddenly in train accident rather than fall from 1000's km height or drown in the sea just like Titanic.

I will never step in the ship.

 

[newellj]

Fun fact: it used to be that once an airplane was moving, ATC could not cancel takeoff clearance and order the plane to stop. They could only describe the issue and let the captain conclude that they should stop. This is because it may be safer to fly over an obstructing airplane than abort takeoff and run right into them. It was changed fairly recently.

The captain still can override ATC and takeoff or land anyway if he judges it to be safer, under his ultimate responsibility for the safe operation of the aircraft.

W-o-w. But on reflection, maybe that make some sense. Historically, s/he is the captain of the ship. And practically, s/he is the one who's on the spot with, at least in some senses, the best immediate (if not necessarily complete) understanding of the factual inputs and variables.

Thanks, that is quite interesting.
[automerge]1571482504[/automerge]

Yeah, gee.

Once a plane I was in did crash land, in a farm field in Kansas. A Piper Tri Pacer. They glide more or less like a set of car keys but no real harm done. The farmer's wife laid on some amazing spread of food while we waited for a tow off the rather disgruntled farmer's turf.

One other time going back to school after a break, I wished myself unconscious after a Mohawk Airlines prop flight had aborted takeoff midway down an Albany NY runway. It taxied back and without even having anything happen like tightening up the ashtrays or whatever (those planes were really noisy and stuff sometimes sounded like it was rattling around loose deep in the interior), we realized the plane was just setting up for another go without ever even really coming to a full stop anywhere along the way.

Indeed all the pilot ever had said during the taxi back was a kind of laconic "Ladies and gents we're gonna give this another try in a couple minutes here."

The 60s seem in retrospect a sort of golden hazy time of flying for a lot of people my age when I talk with them about it. It was still novel not to be driving or taking a train. Bad stuff happened to airplanes but only in the newspapers, was sort of how it felt when one took a plane back then. A lot of the mid-career pilots had been very young WW II combat pilots and nothing about any commercial flight really fazed them, or so one of my uncles said. So there was this assumption that we were all in safe hands and we all bought it.

No one panicked that day in Albany. I was just thinking well it's sure out of my hands isn't it, because we're rolling down the runway again. Anyway no crash and the 2nd try was uneventful. But what that pilot had said might as well have been "Buckle up good now 'cuz what just happened back there was only your second worst nightmare." I know it did affect me, because my next trip home from school I took two buses instead of a bus and a plane. Ugh, it took ten hours, so that cured me and from then on it was back to the planes.

One of the things that amazes me is that in spite of all the financial pressures and budget issues that the major U.S. carriers have, it's my impression that they have not only maintained but improved their safety record over the last 15 years, at least in terms of passenger injuries and fatalities.

Out biggest problems (which is not to understate anything) in commercial aviation today seem to be lithium batteries catching fire and morons who for some reason insist on smoking in lavatories and sticking their hot butts into the paper trash. Oh, and comfort ducks.

 

[Huntn]

It's interesting to think about commercial pilots becoming "just passengers". Does it ever feel like you feel as a parent and experienced driver... when your kid is in the driver's seat, licensed but with minimal experience and you see some other driver doing stupid **** in the oncoming, or at an intersection ahead?

No, it would take something out of the ordinary, something would have to come to my attention for me to become uneasy with the pilots driving and that has yet to happen. Having a locked door between you and them keeps you from being in a position to observe any foolishness, (not implying that there is as a matter of routine) and it’s just not worth worrying about in the position of being a passenger.

And if the individual passenger’s temperament is such that they worry excessively, instead of spending 2.5 hours in the plane, maybe they will be comforted by two days driving in the car and night in a hotel. 🙂

 

[Huntn]

Once. Maybe 1.5x.

737 on take-off from STL to SNA. Take off roll - rotation - BOOM. One rear engine gone. Pilot executes a very sharp turnaround and puts the plane back down on the runway. One of the cabin crew lost her head completely, which could have been extremely unhelpful. The captain was obviously very cool under pressure.

The .5 was a flight from LGA to DCA. Quite close to the ground at DCA, the plane banks up like a superball that just hit the sidewalk. On our way back around, the captain gets on the cabin intercom and explains "Folks, you're probably wondering what happened back there - the tower advised that there was another aircraft on the runway directly in front of us - we decided to accept the tower's recommendation that we come around for another approach." I was thinking: "you decided to accept"? A recommendation? Just how long did you have to think about accepting that recommendation?" The episode ended with the black car driver who was meeting me giving me a little bit of a hard time for being late. I said "yeah, we had to wave off, the pilot tried to land on top of another plane." His eyes got very big and he said in a solemn voice "ohhh - yes - I saw that!"

Not to be nit picky, but 737s don’t have rear engines.

For second example, that is just the wording the captain used to explain the reason for the go around. I would not have worded that way. Go arounds are big deals to passengers as a rule. Some times pilots use wording to calm the passengers who might be agitated. For example:

Once soon after takeoff as the captain on a DC9, we had a fire warning come on the Right Engine. The procedure was first to pull the engine to idle. The fire light went out, which indicated a bleed air leak, air hot enough to set off the fire warning, but was minimized when the engine was reduced to idle. At this point we declared an emergency requesting to return to the Airport. I made a PA and told the passengers we had an engine issue, and would be returning to the airport, and to expect a normal landing and that as a precaution we were going to have emergency vehicles standing by. After we returned to the gate, most of the passengers were willing to continue as soon as they found a new aircraft for us.

Now if I had told them we had a fire indication and were basically single engine, which technically we were (although it was still running at idle), there would have been some traumatized people on that plane. As a side note you only tell the passengers they are in deep ****, when you think there is the possibility that the plane might crash, then you have people bracing, assuming the position.

I’ve seen instances with a significant, but easily handled emergency like a stuck flap, that you can go out of your way to ease passenger’s minds yet some of them will be holding hands across the isles as if this is their last moment on Earth. So I tried to be mindful of their feelings.

 

[Huntn]

Fun fact: it used to be that once an airplane was moving, ATC could not cancel takeoff clearance and order the plane to stop. They could only describe the issue and let the captain conclude that they should stop. This is because it may be safer to fly over an obstructing airplane than abort takeoff and run right into them. It was changed fairly recently.

The captain still can override ATC and takeoff or land anyway if he judges it to be safer, under his ultimate responsibility for the safe operation of the aircraft.

I did not know that, but agree that the Captain has always had final say and the responsibility for the result of his/her decisions, especially when they countermand ATC direction.

 

[Gutwrench]

No true close calls but I have these two stories....

On a really small commercial flight from Cedar Rapids to Des Moines during a storm (at night) we suddenly dropped straight down. I don’t know how far but it was an obvious drop...then we bottomed out with a loud bang (not the ground of course). I genuinely wondered how the wings didn’t snap off. The pilots were behind a curtain and not a peep was heard from them. They were probably busy.

Another very small commercial flight from Cape May NJ to Philadelphia was delayed, then delayed more, and still more. Out the terminal window could see people on ladders digging around inside the compartment of the nose. I can’t remember for sure but I think it was a prop and there was an engine in the nose. Anyway, then we boarded and waited more. Finally we took off, banked hard and immediately landed. The pilot taxied up to a mechanic hanger and out came the ladder and more nose tinkering as we sat in our seats.

Seriously considered taking a bus but I’d miss my flight out of Philadelphia. I accepted the fact I might end up in the Delaware, but we finally made it without incident.

 

[Volusia]

Worry is a terrible waste of imagination.

 

[ucfgrad93]

I've never been concerned that my plane would crash. There is a lot more risk going to the airport than flying.

 

[dmr727]

It's interesting to think about commercial pilots becoming "just passengers". Does it ever feel like you feel as a parent and experienced driver... when your kid is in the driver's seat, licensed but with minimal experience and you see some other driver doing stupid **** in the oncoming, or at an intersection ahead?

With all the MAX foolishness screwing with our schedules, I've been riding in the back more than usual. Like Huntn said - unlike being a passenger in a car, we can't see too much of what's going on up front. Even if I'm riding on the flight deck jumpseat, very rarely does a crew do anything I'd even raise an eyebrow about, so I don't give it much thought. Usually if I form an opinion it's for something not safety related: the captain is running his mouth too much on the PA, they're not firing up the APU during boarding and we're all scorching hot in the back - that sort of thing.

 

[dmr727]

Replying to an old post, but the airlines have made strides in assuring pilots get adequate rest after fatigue related accidents.

They certainly have, and although it's been so long I don't even remember that post (I must be getting old!), I think my point was that every major airline in the US is on pretty even footing when it comes to fatigue.

 

[StellarVixen]

Yes, every time I thought of going somewhere by plane, hence I am anchored to the ground to this day.

 

[A.Goldberg]

I once had a landing with a massive crosswind... the plane came in at what felt like a 45 degree angle to the runway but the pilot handled it like a champ. It’s rather frightening looking out the window while on the descent and at the last minute watching the orientation of the landscape, runway, and wing completely go out of wack.

In the early 90’s my father was on a corporate jet owned by his company and several employees - I believe it was a Leer Jet (or something similar). When they went to land in Connecticut the plane indicated the landing gear was not retracting. They ended up diverting to JFK for an emergency landing- thankfully the landing gear indeed was functional. My mom, siblings, and I (very young at the time) were meanwhile waiting at the airport to pick him up for hours before going home- apparently the plane didn’t have an air phone or it wasn’t working. Probably for the best though, I’m sure my mother would have been hysterical until the plane landed had there been any question of there being able to safely land.

I don’t really enjoy flying but it’s more about comfort and convenience, it’s not fear. Pilots, especially in the US, have superb training. Commercial planes are incredibly safe with many redundancies.

Even with the 737 MAX (which I now realize I flew on prior to their grounding), it seems very clear the system had some design flaws and Boeing had communication issues. But in reality the pilots in the planes that crashed did not follow proper procedure for the runaway trim symptoms exhibited. That doesn’t mean the blame is entirely on them, it’s not, not being aware of MCAS and having workflow overload with such little elevation are major communication and design problems. It’s also true other countries have less stringent training standards than the US- which can be seen as Boeing needs to make their planes more user friendly. I suspect after this whole fiasco the 737 will be the safest plane you can fly on due to the intense scrutiny of everything by numerous regulators.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Fascinating thread.

However, (and I have flown a lot, in several different airlines - African ones, Asian ones, European ones, - and many different types of plane - across three continents over the past thirty years), no, I have never thought that a plane I was on would crash.

 

[LizKat]

Fascinating thread.

However, (and I have flown a lot, in several different airlines - and different actual planes - across three continents over the past thirty years), no, I have never thought that a plane I was on would crash.

Considering some of the places you've seen from the air before landing there, probably all for the best! As others have noted though, it's not like we have any say in what goes on if and when the crew of a plane in flight must struggle with some aircraft control issue. All I remember thinking when we headed for a premature landing that day in Kansas was something like wow I guess we're gonna land in that guy's cornfield... it didn't occur to me "anything bad" might actually happen to me or to the plane for that matter. The bliss of being a kid.

 

[rhett7660]

I been on some pretty hairy flights... I could have sworn on one of them, the wings were clapping. Like someone else mentioned, I don't know how the wings stay on given some of the bend and flapping I have seen!

 

[bruinsrme]

When I flew here to move, when we left Atlanta, the plane's rear end made a huge thud, and a scraping noise, as we tilted up. I'd presume the fuselage bumped the ground.

When we landed here in Phoenix, the plane screeched like nothing I'd heard before.

please post your future itineraries to ensure I am not on the same flights as you. Thank you in advance. Your not flying PHX-BOS thursday are you?

 

[0388631]

On long flights, I'll read the paper in business class or first if it's a very long flight, slip a few OTC sleep aids and a drink, and doze off.