Here's why the next gen MBP should use the ATI 5830 GPU...

Discussion in 'MacBook Pro' started by wikoogle, Feb 18, 2010.

  1. wikoogle macrumors 6502a

    wikoogle

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2009
    #1
    Here's a comparison of an upconverted dvd on a 7 inch screen, versus a blu ray on a 7 inch screen.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    The 15" HP Envy laptop, which is basically identical to the Macbook Pro in terms of dimensions, design and power consumption, opts to use the i5 processor, 1920x1080 resolution and a blu ray drive alongside a 1GB ATI 5830 GPU in the high end models. So the next MBP using a weaker GPU than basically a MBP knock off already offers would make the MBP seem poorly planned out and poorly designed.


    Toggling between GPUs isn't anything that has to be restricted to Nvidia. ATI's GPUs are fully capable of doing the same thing.

    I just think it's a really horrible idea to go with Nvidia now. They are still stuck in the last generation of GPUs, a generation that isn't very energy efficient compared to the ATI 5830.

    Nvidia already announced that they're pretty much abandoning computer GPUs and going to focus on making GPUs for servers, and for cellphones (the Ion) from now on. Which means they won't have much if anything to offer for the new MBPs.

    Plus, Nvidia's new generation of GPUs, the Fermi is extremely power hungry and extremely big. So we won't see a mobile version of it, probably ever. If Apple sticks with Nvidia, we're going to be stuck with outdated GPUs for the next two years atleast. :mad:

    Notebookcheck.net provides a list of every laptop GPU in the market today, benchmarks their performance and classifies them based on how good they are.

    Class 1 GPUs are considered the best of the best. The higher the class number the worse they perform.

    They currently rate the entire ATI Mobility 58XX series (including the 5830) as Class 1 GPUs. And the series has the advantage of being cutting edge and supporting DirectX 11.

    Actually, I think by looking at the GPUs rated Class 1, and researching the amount of power they use, we can figure out which GPUs Apple should use in the next MBP to get the most bang for the buck (the most performance per wattage).

    The Nvidia 9600M GT GPU that is currently found in MBPs draws 23 watts of power. The ATI 5830 GPU draws 24 watts of power, so it would be a good choice in my opinion. Though IMO, using a GPU that uses the much faster GDDR5 memory instead of the GDDR3 memory that the ATI uses would be a very welcome move.

    Here is a list of the laptop GPUs the site ranks as Class 1 so we can figure out other good choices for Apple to use. I'm only familiar with the watt requirements for the ATI 5830.


    Class 1
    » GeForce GTX 285M SLI
    » GeForce GTX 280M SLI
    » Mobility Radeon HD 4870 X2
    » GeForce GTX 260M SLI
    » GeForce 9800M GTX SLI
    » Mobility Radeon HD 5870
    » Quadro FX 3800M *
    » GeForce GTX 285M *
    » GeForce GTX 280M
    » GeForce 9800M GT SLI
    » GeForce 9800M GTS SLI
    » Mobility Radeon HD 3870 X2
    » GeForce 8800M GTX SLI
    » Mobility Radeon HD 3850 X2
    » Quadro FX 3700M
    » Mobility Radeon HD 4870
    » Mobility Radeon HD 4860 *
    » FirePro M7740 *
    » Mobility Radeon HD 4850
    » GeForce GTX 260M
    » GeForce 9800M GTX
    » Quadro FX 2800M *
    » GeForce 9800M GT
    » GeForce 8800M GTX
    » Quadro FX 3600M
    » GeForce GTS 360M *
    » GeForce GTS 260M *
    » Mobility Radeon HD 5850 *
    » GeForce GTS 160M
    » GeForce 9800M GTS
    » GeForce 9800M GS
    » Mobility Radeon HD 5830 *
    » Mobility Radeon HD 4830
    » NVIDIA GeForce GTS 150M

    Link: http://www.notebookcheck.net/Comparison-of-Graphic-Cards.130.0.html

    If you're interested in gaming performance, here's another helpful link illustrating how weak the three year old 9600M GT GPU really is compared to the alternatives available on the market today (in Windows, use F3 to quickly navigate to different GPUs)...

    Link: http://www.notebookcheck.net/Computer-Games-on-Laptop-Graphic-Cards.13849.0.html

    Click on any GPU's name and to the right will be a list of all the GPUs ranked by performance without the detailed descriptions.
     
  2. Eddyisgreat macrumors 601

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2007
    #2
    Class 4. Don't forget it has to fit in a .00000001 inch thick enclosure.
     
  3. hellric macrumors member

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    Feb 8, 2010
    Location:
    Belgium
    #3
    I really hope to get an ATI 5830, but the 4670 or 5650 seem more realistic, and in nVidia range, GT 330M...
    The TDP isn't the only concern, price is also important.
     
  4. wikoogle thread starter macrumors 6502a

    wikoogle

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2009
    #4
    These are $2000+ dollar laptops that probably cost Apple around $600 or so to build. If Apple really cares about giving it's customers a performance (pro) laptop, Apple should pay the extra $20 it costs them to use the slightly more expensive 5830.

    Eddy, I realize that you're probably being sarcastic, but in case you aren't... I'm talking about the MBP, not the MBA.
     
  5. dr. shdw macrumors 6502a

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    Aug 27, 2008
    #5
    TDP.
     
  6. wikoogle thread starter macrumors 6502a

    wikoogle

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2009
    #6
    Like I mentioned in the OP, there is virtually no difference in TDP between the 9600M GT (23 W) already in MBPs and the ATI 5830 (24 W). In terms of heat dissipation, the 5830 actually seems to run cooler.
     
  7. Gen macrumors 6502a

    Gen

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2008
    #7
    How can Apple provide a better gpu in the mbp than the high-end imac or mac pro? If Apple used that gpu they would have to offer it on the imac and mac pro as well, and I don't see them updating neither anytime soon.
     
  8. wikoogle thread starter macrumors 6502a

    wikoogle

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2009
    #8
    What does the iMac and Mac Pro have to do with anything?

    Desktop GPUs and Laptop GPUs are completely different. Just because a desktop GPU is a lower class than a laptop GPU doesn't mean that it performs worse. Desktop GPUs that use GDDR5 memory or 256-bit bus easily outperform higher class laptop GPUs that use GDDR3 memory and 128-bit bus like the 5830 does.

    Also, the iMacs and Mac Pros have a completely different architecture, upgrade cycle, and an entirely seperate design team compared to the Macbook Pros. Plus, the iMac are not targeted to the Pro consumers. And the Mac Pro's GPU easily outperforms any laptop GPU out there.

    The Macbook Pro laptops and the Mac Pro desktops are what target the Pro consumers.

    The Macbook laptops and iMacs target casual consumers.
     
  9. hellric macrumors member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2010
    Location:
    Belgium
    #9
    Of course we talk of "mobility" Radeon, very different to desktop Radeon used in Mac Pro. Not sure if the iMac has the "mobility" or "desktop" one though...
     
  10. Fuchal macrumors 68020

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    Sep 30, 2003
    #10
    When has Apple ever used the GPU we want in a computer?
     
  11. wikoogle thread starter macrumors 6502a

    wikoogle

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2009
    #11
    The HP Envy laptop, which is basically identical to the Macbook Pro in terms of dimensions, design and power consumption, opts to use the i5 processor, 1920x1080 resolution and a blu ray drive alongside a 1GB ATI 5830 GPU in the high end models. So the next MBP using a weaker GPU than basically a MBP knock off already offers would make the MBP seem poorly planned out and poorly designed.

    Three years ago, the 8600 was actually a very high end and powerful laptop GPU, if I recall, it was the fastest laptop GPU available at that time that doesn't draw an absurd amount of power. The 9600 that followed is pretty much the same as the 8600 in terms of architecture and design. Since there wasn't anything else that was outdated at the time, its clear why Apple just opted to stick a 9600 in there and call it a day.

    But this iteration of the MBP will have to upgrade. Ignoring the i5 in their Pro series is not a viable option. And the i5's won't work with the 9600, which means Apple had to go back to the drawing board in terms of GPU. I wouldn't be surprised if they went with a cutting edge GPU again so that they could stick with that for another few years.
     
  12. cathyy macrumors 6502a

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    Apr 12, 2008
    #12
    Class 2 most likely for the 15" MBP (13" MBP will get a weaker GPU), which would be the ATI 5650. The reason why 9600M GTs are still considered class 2 despite being 3 years old is because Class 3 GPUs still haven't caught up to it yet. That is, having an equal amount of performance for a much lower power consumption. ATI's 5400 series is coming close though. It is among ATI's low-end graphics line up (which should make it class 3), and at 7W, it's at the bottom of the Class 2 list.

    I honestly hope that they would put the ATI 5830 inside it though. Seeing how it's power consumption is rather low at 24W (considering it has 800 SPs compared to the 9600 which has an equivalent of about 120 SPs), and how HP managed to do it, it seems rather possible for Apple to do so too.

    The 5830 would honestly be a huge jump and put it back on the competitive side like it did when Apple first stuck an 8600M GT in it. A 5650 on the other hand would just be 'meh' seeing how it has just half the power of the 5830. (800 vs 400 SPs)
     
  13. striatedglutes macrumors 6502

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    Feb 22, 2009
    Location:
    USA
    #13
    It seems whenever I've looked it's always been a Class 2 at release.
     
  14. cathyy macrumors 6502a

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    Apr 12, 2008
    #14
    That's true, but also for a good reason. Up till now, ALL the Class 1 GPUs had ridiculous TDPs of at least 45 to 70W, all of which are way too high to fit into a slim 1" chassis. However ATI and their miracle working has somehow managed to make some crazy GPU with a low power consumption of only 24W. While it may be higher than the previous MBP GPUs such as the X1600, 8600M and 9600M, it really isn't higher by much, and is indeed possible to try to cram it in.
     
  15. mark28 macrumors 68000

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    Jan 29, 2010
    #15
    I hope atleast a HD 5650 or a HD5730 standard already in the entry models. Only an integrated GPU on a $1500 laptop is a big no.

    edit: Since there are $1300 core i5 laptops with a HD5870 :O
     
  16. ammusk macrumors regular

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    Oct 20, 2009
    #16
    Maybe Apple will surprise us. Maybe not.
     
  17. Mackan macrumors 65816

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    Sep 16, 2007
    #17
    Exactly.
     
  18. hundert macrumors regular

    hundert

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2010
    #18
    It was once, when 8600 was put in, but unluckily, ALL of them were destined to fail sooner or later.

    The card was powerfull at the time it came out, it could run all of the contemporary to its release games.

    Those people, who used their for 8600 gaming, had a very high chance of a failure. Those who did not have a use of it. probably still have it running.
     
  19. definitive macrumors 68000

    definitive

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2008
    #19
    i doubt we'll be seeing any 5### series chipsets or anything similar in speed/technology in the next mbp's, but who knows. apple isn't one of those companies who listens to its customers. instead it's their way, or the highway. agree or disagree, but their past decisions back what i said up. 27" imacs with 4850 graphics card when newer chipsets were out, ipad without flash, multitasking or usb ports, and the list goes on.
     
  20. gadgetfreaky macrumors 6502a

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    Oct 28, 2007
    #20
    I wanted a 5830 in there just highly doubt it becuase Apple wants to have dual switching in there. live toggling of the on board graphics vs the discreet card.
     
  21. hundert macrumors regular

    hundert

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    Jan 24, 2010
    #21
    There is a Rumor now, it is going to be NVidia. This rumor comes from the News Page here on macrumors.com They say it is possible there will be a technology devped by nvidia that allows for a automatic switch between discreet and intergrated gpus.
     
  22. wikoogle thread starter macrumors 6502a

    wikoogle

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    Jun 12, 2009
    #22
    ATI actually has the very same technology. Infact, it was AMD (ATI's parent company) that implemented this technique first.

    All the rumor says is that the MBP will use such a technique, it doesn't say which company the GPU will be made by. It could still be an ATI GPU that is used to do this *maybe *hopefully.
     
  23. cathyy macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2008
    #23
    Nah, I gamed almost daily on mine for 2 years straight and it's still going strong. On the other hand, I have several classmates with other laptops with 8600s in it. They definitely don't game even close to the amount of time I do, (several of them hardly even touch games), and theirs burnt out in the last 6 months.

    Seems like the Early 08 MBPs are less likely to burn out too.
     
  24. hundert macrumors regular

    hundert

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2010
    #24
    You can't say "Nah" to my post, since I wrote exactly what you say.

    There is a high CHANCE they fail. Yes, yours is ALSO DEFEKT! It just needs more heat to fail. Your 8600 seems to be strong and we hope it will work until you need it to.

    I have this information pulled together, since I have two macs with 8600 that failed. I read so much about the issue, that I might start a new discreet GPU company...
    Well, now, being serious, those guys at Genius bar say all 8600 are destined to fail and the replacement boards that we get, fail just like their ancestors. It is like a genetically inherited disease.

    I want ATi so bad, because I have never had problems with ATi. I am with it since 9800pro, then I had x700pro, then x850GTO and x800xt for a short time (all were overclockable/stable) and now I want ATi again, after having used 8600GT.
     
  25. wikoogle thread starter macrumors 6502a

    wikoogle

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2009
    #25
    Toggling between GPUs isn't anything that has to be restricted to Nvidia. ATI's GPUs are fully capable of doing the same thing.

    I just think it's a really horrible idea to go with Nvidia now. They are still stuck in the last generation of GPUs, a generation that isn't very energy efficient compared to the ATI 5830.

    Nvidia already announced that they're pretty much abandoning computer GPUs and going to focus on making GPUs for servers, and for cellphones (the Ion) from now on. Which means they won't have much if anything to offer for the new MBPs.

    Plus, Nvidia's new generation of GPUs, the Fermi is extremely power hungry and extremely big. So we won't see a mobile version of it, probably ever. If Apple sticks with Nvidia, we're going to be stuck with outdated GPUs for the next two years atleast. :mad:
     

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