HEVC Support

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

Software decoding of h.265 is impossible anyway. My Windows 10 PC or my new MBP can't do this with the latest greatest CPUs and GPUs. Hardware GPU support is presently not completed in operating systems and popular players. High Sierra is the first to claim full hardware decode playback support.

(yes I know there are some lesser known players which claim hardware decode but I don't like malware looking software)
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Could anyone test this 10bit 4k HEVC file, it's an mp4 so hopefully it should work in quicktime. http://demo-uhd3d.com/fiche.php?cat=uhd&id=150

This is what it looks like on Sierra with latest VLC

 

[loekf]

MKV is a wrapper. Most likely you have been playing h264 files because I haven't seen any support for h265 in VLC.

Not true. VLC *does* support HEVC. My Late 2014 iMac can do 1080p HEVC movies. 4K is way too much. It depends on the bit rate. HEVC is computationally intensive. On an AppleTV, MrMc can do 720p HEVC 100% in SW using hand optimized code (A8 SOC).

I'm not 100% sure which Intel CPUs are needed for HW acceleration under macOS 10.13.

In principle Skylake and Kabylake can do HEVC decoding in hardware. Skylake does main 8-bits, Kabylake can do main 10-bits.

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

Not true. VLC *does* support HEVC. My Late 2014 iMac can do 1080p HEVC movies. 4K is way too much.

Hope you don't think we were discussing 1080p. The whole point of the newer codecs is to get 4K, 6K and 8K down to manageable sizes for download.

 

[JCsHands2]

Tried it on my 2015 MacBook Air with 10.13, doesn't open in Quicktime and chokes in VLC.

QuickTime

VLC

 

[pastrychef]

Does High Sierra utilize the CPU or GPU for H.265 decoding?

 

[Ritsuka]

There are two different ways to mux h.265 in mp4. Right now QuickTime seems to support only the files with the "hvc1" fourcc.
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Could anyone test this 10bit 4k HEVC file, it's an mp4 so hopefully it should work in quicktime. http://demo-uhd3d.com/fiche.php?cat=uhd&id=150

That's not a mp4 file. It has the wrong file extension, actually it's a mpeg transport stream. So it's not going to work in QuickTime.

 

[loekf]

There are two different ways to mux h.265 in mp4. Right now QuickTime seems to support only the files with the "hvc1" fourcc.
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That's not a mp4 file. It has the wrong file extension, actually it's a mpeg transport stream. So it's not going to work in QuickTime.

For more stuff on HEVC SW and HW decode, go to:

https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=171219

If I were Apple I would NOT use the Radeon 3xx or 5xx built-in decoder. Don't think the 3xx even has a HEVC decoder, maybe a hybrid one (bits and pieces are done on the GPU, sometimes using shader code). The Intel HEVC hardware encoder and decoder is far superior to the one from AMD. Nvidia is very close.

 

[KnoeSS]

Will we get Netflix 4K in Safari? Hope so

 

[Mr. Retrofire]

Does High Sierra utilize the CPU or GPU for H.265 decoding?

It uses the CPU and the iGPU (Skylake) or only the iGPU (Kaby Lake). The reason is that Intel finished the Skylake iGPU before more H.265 encoder profiles were standardized. Kaby Lake supports more H.265 features and profiles than Skylake.

Efficiency (Skylake vs. Kaby Lake)

+ Intel’s 7th-gen Kaby Lake can decode and encode HEVC video at 4K resolution with 10-bit color in hardware.

Expect unstable H.265 support in High Sierra up to macOS 10.13.4. It is still not bug free or optimized, just like H.264 hardware decoding support in Snow Leopard 10.6.3.
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Will we get Netflix 4K in Safari? Hope so

If your machine is 20 times more efficient than a Skylake machine, sure why not?

 

[loekf]

Will we get Netflix 4K in Safari? Hope so

Let's also hope Mr. VP SW steps over his own shadow, brushes his (nice) hair and allows VP9 Safari... in Youtube for 4K.

AFAIK, Apple still didn't join the AOMedia aka AV1 group, the successor of VP9, which tries to develop an alternative codec.. because HEVC is a minefield in terms of royalties.

 

[rssfed23]

The whole point of the newer codecs is to get 4K, 6K and 8K down to manageable sizes for download.

The main aim of HEVC/H.265 is to "double the data compression ratio at the same level of video quality, or substantially improved video quality at the same bit rate" and it has implications far beyond just enabling 4k content for download or streaming.
Within the mobile space it's not really about 4k at all - getting higher quality video at lower bitrates is great for all sorts of usages including video calls, video streaming over cellular data connections and additional features not available in other codecs.
It also means for example you can fit at least twice as many HD streams into a single DVB-S/T/C channel or transponder as you could in the past.
HEVC is just the natural evolution of video codecs that's been going on since the MPEG1 days. Enabling smaller 4/6/8k downloads is a feature or byproduct of this not the whole point

 

[giggles]

So will future versions of mkv players like Kodi be able to "leverage" this system-level h.265 hw decode API to play HEVC 10bit HDR mkv movies/series?

I mean on a Kaby Lake mac of course. Don't even bother with pre-KL macs, unless you use a suitable eGPU or dGPU.

The macOS API that currently exposes hardware h.264 decoding to third party players (like Kodi) is called "VDADecoder".

Basically wouldn't it be the same now but with h.265 added into the mix? Something like "VDADecoder_now_with_HEVC".

Cointaners don't matter, the third party players just need to invoke that API when decoding the video stream.

To sum up: let's wait and see what third party devs do with the new decoding capability baked into the OS.

I'd just like to have immediate confirmation that the h.265 API actually exists. See, with h.264 for some time Apple used hw acceleration only for its own apps (Quicktime, iTunes) without exposing it to devs, until 2010 when the API was made public. Let's hope that for h.265 the API is made public from the get go... (anybody catched that in a keynote slide or support document?)

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

The main aim of HEVC/H.265 is to "double the data compression ratio at the same level of video quality, or substantially improved video quality at the same bit rate" and it has implications far beyond just enabling 4k content for download or streaming.

Man that's all obvious but cmon...its about UHD and above. It's about corporations making sure you upgrade to the latest and greatest and sign up for the UHD streaming shots. They don't care about decade old 1080p being a 'smaller file'.

 

[giggles]

Man that's all obvious but cmon...its about UHD and above. It's about corporations making sure you upgrade to the latest and greatest and sign up for the UHD streaming shots. They don't care about decade old 1080p being a 'smaller file'.

Facetime h.265 (smaller load on networks) and iOS11 camcorder h.265 (smaller files in camera roll, even if you shoot in 1080p/720p) beg to differ...

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

Facetime h.265 (smaller load on networks) and iOS11 camcorder h.265 (smaller files in camera roll, even if you shoot in 1080p/720p) beg to differ...

Yes. It's great to have new codecs for "everything" but there are priorities and then everything else comes next. Why are we talking about obvious stuff?

 

[Ritsuka]

The macOS API that currently exposes hardware h.264 decoding to third party players (like Kodi) is called "VDADecoder".

Basically wouldn't it be the same now but with h.265 added into the mix? Something like "VDADecoder_now_with_HEVC".

VDA has been deprecated for years. The API now is called VideoToolbox, and it supports hevc on high sierra.

 

[rssfed23]

t's about corporations making sure you upgrade to the latest and greatest and sign up for the UHD streaming shots.

Not completely. It's about corporations saving millions in transmission and distribution costs with the biggest savings being made (currently) in 1080p due to the tiny number of UHD streams and content compared to HD.

Although naturally I'm speaking on behalf of the biggest broadcasters and OTT providers in the UK and Europe I should note. The US may be a different story altogether but when combined the investment and savings of the European bloc (which by extension extends through most of the Middle East and Asia until Japan) far outstrips the US corporate side in raw monetary terms. For us here in Europe 4k is an added benefit given UHD/HDR isn't even a finalised or unified standard across the board yet and is part of a longer term strategy.
The priorities are firmly on optimising existing HD and SD content delivery at the moment.

 

[evec]

Man that's all obvious but cmon...its about UHD and above. It's about corporations making sure you upgrade to the latest and greatest and sign up for the UHD streaming shots. They don't care about decade old 1080p being a 'smaller file'.

The HEVC regardless of screen size, it support lower to 100p resolution.

The HEVC is actually designed for all video format, UHD apply the HEVC for their alliance.
The main purpose of use HEVC is reduce the size of 4K video inside a blurry disc.

Another most important usage of HEVC is use of TV network which apply HEVC for 1080p even 720p standard together with traditional 100MB internet service.

The CCTV manufacturer also apply the HEVC for reduce the video record size.

For the Apple, HEVC actually prepare for the 4K iTunes video services, they don't care about UHD.

However, H.265 isn't prefect, the prediction mechanism is too complex and sometime found the object is separated from the background, it not natural that H.264 and the promotion said it reduced 50% size compare as H.264, I personal review that HEVC just reduced the size about 30%.

 

[giggles]

VDA has been deprecated for years. The API now is called VideoToolbox, and it supports hevc on high sierra.

Excellent, just what I wanted to hear.

So it's just a matter of leveraging the API with a third party player.

I just emailed the dev of my favorite MAS (paid) mkv player. I will also post on the Kodi forum but they're a bit slow on the mac side of things...

 

[cookies!]

VLC seems incapable of smoothly—I'm talking 1 minute load times for every 5 seconds of content—playing 4K (HEVC or H.264 files) on my 2014 MBP 15" with discrete or integrated graphics. MPV is the only program I've found so far that can do this.

 

[stol]

VLC does not support h265 and certainly wouldn't be remotely possible years ago. Please don't confuse codecs with wrappers.

Please don't confuse codecs with resolution.
When in the same answer, I suggest that Apple will most probably use hevc in mp4 containers and not mkv, I certainly understand the codec/wrapper difference!


That said, 1080p HEVC files play just fine on VLC (or mpv player). 10-bit hevc encodings play smooth on a Mac Mini 2012 (i7 quad). I had not tested 4K material up until today, cause I don't care at the moment, I don't have a 4K screen/TV actually. And before you start saying that HEVC makes sense only for 4K, guess what, you can save a lot of space using HEVC for any video at any resolution.

I tested DP1 on the aforementioned Mac, and built-in HEVC support is partial.
I grabbed some mkv files from http://jell.yfish.us and converted them to mp4 with Subler (pass-thru of course)

The following files play well with High Sierra (Quick Look + Quicktime + iTunes):

Format                                   : HEVC
Format/Info                              : High Efficiency Video Coding
Format profile                           : Main@L4@Main
Codec ID                                 : hvc1
Codec ID/Info                            : High Efficiency Video Coding
Bit rate                                 : 2 832 Kbps
Width                                    : 1 920 pixels
Height                                   : 1 080 pixels

Format                                   : HEVC
Format/Info                              : High Efficiency Video Coding
Format profile                           : Main 10@L4@Main
Codec ID                                 : hvc1
Codec ID/Info                            : High Efficiency Video Coding
Bit rate                                 : 2 991 Kbps
Width                                    : 1 920 pixels
Height                                   : 1 080 pixels

Format                                   : HEVC
Format/Info                              : High Efficiency Video Coding
Format profile                           : Main 10@L4@High
Codec ID                                 : hvc1
Codec ID/Info                            : High Efficiency Video Coding
Bit rate                                 : 19.7 Mbps
Width                                    : 1 920 pixels
Height                                   : 1 080 pixels

This 4K 8-bit HEVC played back very smoothly, but upon seek Quicktime crashed (report sent…)

Format                                   : HEVC
Format/Info                              : High Efficiency Video Coding
Format profile                           : Main
Codec ID                                 : hvc1
Codec ID/Info                            : High Efficiency Video Coding
Duration                                 : 11mn 44s
Bit rate                                 : 2 299 Kbps
Maximum bit rate                         : 25.5 Mbps
Width                                    : 4 096 pixels
Height                                   : 1 714 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 2.40:1

Things started to fail after a while, the following was unplayable natively (but thumbnail was successfully generated, with non-HDR clips):

Format                                   : HEVC
Format/Info                              : High Efficiency Video Coding
Format profile                           : Main 10@L4.1@High
Codec ID                                 : hvc1
Codec ID/Info                            : High Efficiency Video Coding
Bit rate                                 : 40.1 Mbps
Width                                    : 1 920 pixels
Height                                   : 1 080 pixels

Format                                   : HEVC
Format/Info                              : High Efficiency Video Coding
Format profile                           : Main@L6@Main
Codec ID                                 : hvc1
Codec ID/Info                            : High Efficiency Video Coding
Bit rate                                 : 2 010 Kbps
Maximum bit rate                         : 3 061 Kbps
Width                                    : 3 840 pixels
Height                                   : 2 160 pixels

Info comes from MediaInfo. VLC and mpv players could play well all the above files. I had test files up to 120Mbps, before those players started choking.

So, on Macs without hardware acceleration, it would be safe to suppose that up to profile Main 10@L4@High files are supported. CPU % usage was acceptable (no audible fans):

VTDecoderXPCService: ranging from 25% to 85%, depending on resolution + bitrate.
+ Quicktime Player: ranging from 5% to 10%

On further tests, files of any resolution with:

Codec ID : hev1

Codec ID : V_MPEGH/ISO/HEVC

won't play, which is strange. I encoded some files with Handbrake. They have the V_MPEGH/ISO/HEVC codec id and as such, won't play on macOS natively. I’m no video codec expert, but I have a good understanding and a general interest in such stuff. If anyone has something to add, or explain the Codec ID differences, please do so. I found this, but it goes kinda deep.

Still, not ready to give up, i followed this tip from SO and succescfully got ‘hvc1’ files from ‘hev1’ and ‘V_MPEGH/ISO/HEVC’, without converting video of course, just remuxing, a matter of seconds - then they would play nice with High Sierra!

tl;dr

HEVC Support on High Sierra on older Macs is limited to Profile Main 10@L4@High, with Codec ID (fourcc) 'hvc1'
You can change CodecID, if that's your problem, easily without re-encoding, just remux the file with a tool like mp4box.

 

[giggles]

I will also post on the Kodi forum but they're a bit slow on the mac side of things...

one kodi dev answered this

"Support needs to be added to ffmpeg by their devs first."

not sure what that means

 

[Superhai]

tl;dr

HEVC Support on High Sierra on older Macs is limited to Profile Main 10@L4@High, with Codec ID (fourcc) 'hvc1'
You can change CodecID, if that's your problem, easily without re-encoding, just remux the file with a tool like mp4box.

Indeed, actually I just took my hex editor and changed hev1 to hvc1 and I tried it on a 10 bit 2160p movie, and it plays flawlessly (13" MBP 2014). Even am able to import it into iTunes without a hitch (although I don't know how to tag it as 4k).

 

[giggles]

As soon as somebody here obtains a KabyLake mac, could you please test High Sierra + Kodi 17 with HEVC 4K 10bit mkv files?

Kodi 17 uses ffmpeg-vtb (for the first time actually, they used ffmpeg-vda up until Kodi 16)

Apple in High Sierra added HEVC to ffmepg-vtb

hence HEVC could work automagically in Kodi 17 when running in High Sierra and with proper hardware (Kaby Lake), with no manual update by the Kodi devs required

 

[evec]

one kodi dev answered this

"Support needs to be added to ffmpeg by their devs first."

not sure what that means

I think the meaning is :
The Kodi use ffmpeg for video decoding, some as VLC.
ffmpeg is open source decoder/encoder which use many playback programs.
The Kodi is the user interface and control system for integrated and communicated between decoder, the container (MKV) and lib of playback system (video toolbox by Apple), so ffmpeg should need to develop of communicated with video toolbox for use of systems provided decorder.