High Sierra and games

[HawtTuna]

Here is what I noticed: if I restart my computer and play the game, the FPS is fine. When I put my computer to sleep and wake it up and play game, the FPS is horrible.

So I restarted my MacBook Pro a couple of times today and it seems to have resolved most of my frame rate issues. Rocket League, Civilization 6 and Pillars of Eternity FPS are almost the same as they were in Sierra. Not sure why it took me restarting my computer 3 times for it work like that.

 

[BenTrovato]

So I restarted my MacBook Pro a couple of times today and it seems to have resolved most of my frame rate issues. Rocket League, Civilization 6 and Pillars of Eternity FPS are almost the same as they were in Sierra. Not sure why it took me restarting my computer 3 times for it work like that.

Works for me too. Except if I’ve been using my computer for a while and then I fire up a game, I get the lower framerates.

 

[jeanlain]

I think you need a special kext for iStat to show CPU and GPU frequencies.

Apparently I don't. iStats seems to show the correct frequencies right now.

 

[Wonder Warthog]

So, well, what are your experiences with High Sierra and games?

I can summarise mine with one four-letter-word, that I cannot write here without drawing the ire of the moderators.

…

I tested this on a 2016 15" rMBP with a AMD Radeon Pro 460 (4 GB).

Same machine, same graphics card, same godawful performance. Tried all the "tricks" to fix it. Stuff like get info on the game and check "open in low resolution" doesn't make any difference. So we got an upgrade with less stability still no update for OpenGL, but instead an update to Metal, a graphic library that nobody really uses, nobody asked for, and that crashes a lot. Jeez. Can Apple get anything right these days? This is so sad.

 

[jeanlain]

OpenGL has no future.
Anyway, the issues you're encountering have little to do with OpenGL vs Metal. There has to be a bug somewhere. I suspect something related to power management, but I can't test since all my Macs very well with high Sierra.

 

[bericthered]

OpenGL has no future.
Anyway, the issues you're encountering have little to do with OpenGL vs Metal. There has to be a bug somewhere. I suspect something related to power management, but I can't test since all my Macs very well with high Sierra.

Power management i.e. graphics switching? I can barely run most 3D games on high Sierra, and when I switch to Windows 10 on boot camp, everything runs buttery smooth. I’m running a 2012 15” MacBook Pro with GeForce 650M and intel 4000 graphics.

 

[jeanlain]

No, not graphic switching. The frequency of a GPU is variable, and could be set incorrectly.

 

[Wonder Warthog]

OpenGL has no future.

Oh, really? That must be why they posted version 4.6 on July 31st this frigging year. Meanwhile macOS is still stuck at a 5 year old version.

 

[jeanlain]

No future on the Mac I mean. But even elsewhere, I'm not sure where it's going. Very few games, aside from certain indy games, use openGL. ID software games are basically the only exception.

 

[Janichsan]

No future on the Mac I mean. But even elsewhere, I'm not sure where it's going. Very few games, aside from certain indy games, use openGL. ID software games are basically the only exception.

OpenGL is not only used in games. But I agree that OpenGL doesn't seem to have a bright future: it won't go away anytime soon, but it probably won't see really major updates.

 

[Wonder Warthog]

No future on the Mac I mean. But even elsewhere, I'm not sure where it's going. Very few games, aside from certain indy games, use openGL. ID software games are basically the only exception.

So, the logical step for Apple would have been to support Vulkan full on, but you think instead going with a proposed Apple-only technology to cover 3% of the gaming market is a future proof sure fire bet? And we all know where Apple-only solutions are usually going. Just like QuickDraw 3D or OpenDoc, they take the industry by storm!… oh, wait…

 

[Janichsan]

So, the logical step for Apple would have been to support Vulkan full on, but you think instead going with a proposed Apple-only technology to cover 3% of the gaming market is a future proof sure fire bet? And we all know where Apple-only solutions are usually going. Just like QuickDraw 3D or OpenDoc, they take the industry by storm!… oh, wait…

I don't think Apple really cared about the 3% market share of gaming on desktop systems, but rather of the 30 to 40% (depending on who you ask) mobile market share. Macs are just collateral damage.

 

[Paulk]

My disk utility shows a large decrease in free disk space from 50 gig to 36 gig. That's disappointing and limits still further the free space for games.

 

[Merode]

I just want to tune in on the "OpenGL has no future". As somebody who works with it, I think it really does.

There are currently two low-level ways of working with graphics pipeline:

• low-level: OpenGL or DX11,
• almost bare metal: Vulkan or DX12.

In theory, DX12 and Vulkan should offer better performance because they allow you to use GPU as you really wish while OpenGL and DX11 give you higher level API and do the magic for you.

The reality is, DX12 and Vulkan are really difficult. I know a lot about OpenGL but even the most basic operations in Vulkan cause me headaches. It is not the issue with me. A lot AAA developers have issues working with Vulkan as well and that's why some games work better in OpenGL or DX11 mode than in Vulkan/DX12.

I believe that both OpenGL and Vulkan will be developed simultaneously because there's need for both. We have yet to see if developers will learn to use Vulkan. It's also worth mentioning that due to these complications, developing with Vulkan is a lot more expansive.

On Metal. It's Vulkan like API that will be underutilized in AAA products because macOS is not popular enough. Even if some companies will use it (Blizzard), they won't optimize code as much because it's not worth it. It's more of a PR move.

EDIT: Just to add to that. OpenGL is just a specification of API and it's manufacturers who implement it (via drivers etc.). In case of Apple, they have their own implementation which is not very good. Not only don't they implement newer versions of OpenGL but what they implement is inefficient. That's why games work better under Windows on the same hardware.

 

[Janichsan]

I just want to tune in on the "OpenGL has no future". As somebody who works with it, I think it really does.

There are currently two low-level ways of working with graphics pipeline:

• low-level: OpenGL or DX11,
• almost bare metal: Vulkan or DX12.

...

I see your point (which I why I don't think OpenGL will just vanish any time soon), but at least on the DirectX side, it's becoming clear that Microsoft is seeing DX12 as the future: while DX11 and DX12 were equivalent in features for the most time, the latter is now getting features that DX11 does not have and apparently never will, starting with support for Shader Model 6.0.

From what I gather, the Khronos group indeed has no plans to end development of OpenGL, although it seems that future additions mainly will be limited to back-ported features from Vulkan (like the support for SPIR-V added in OGL 4.6). On the other hand, they don't seem to be completely adverse to drop their higher levels APIs in favour of Vulkan, as OpenCL for instance will be merged into Vulkan.

 

[bericthered]

No, not graphic switching. The frequency of a GPU is variable, and could be set incorrectly.

Sounds about right. I can't really figure out any way to verify this or better yet fix it. :/

 

[Irishman]

So, an update to my last report of game performance in High Sierra: both of the Metro Redux games get single digit framerates now. It is so bad that I have to boot into win 10 via bootcamp to play them.

 

[jeanlain]

Has anyone here reported the issue to Apple support/feedback/bug reporter?

 

[marksatt]

I see your point (which I why I don't think OpenGL will just vanish any time soon), but at least on the DirectX side, it's becoming clear that Microsoft is seeing DX12 as the future: while DX11 and DX12 were equivalent in features for the most time, the latter is now getting features that DX11 does not have and apparently never will, starting with support for Shader Model 6.0.

From what I gather, the Khronos group indeed has no plans to end development of OpenGL, although it seems that future additions mainly will be limited to back-ported features from Vulkan (like the support for SPIR-V added in OGL 4.6). On the other hand, they don't seem to be completely adverse to drop their higher levels APIs in favour of Vulkan, as OpenCL for instance will be merged into Vulkan.

Khronos are going to keep updating OpenGL's API and AMD/Nvidia may keep updating their drivers, as there are a lot of CAD/3D/Enterprise applications that rely upon on it that aren't going to switch.

Very few games studios have used OpenGL since the Direct3D 7 era and I would imagine the few that do will use Vulkan instead in the future. Its much closer in capabilities and API design to DX12 than OpenGL ever was to earlier Direct3D versions.

 

[Pangalactic]

Looks like until the release of iMac pro people will be sticking with Hearthstone

 

[Merode]

Very few games studios have used OpenGL since the Direct3D 7 era and I would imagine the few that do will use Vulkan instead in the future. Its much closer in capabilities and API design to DX12 than OpenGL ever was to earlier Direct3D versions.

Cough, cough, are you serious? id Software, Blizzard to name a few and each of their games runs on OpenGL renderer. id has added Vulkan renderer and Blizzard has added Metal. It doesn't mean they're dropping OpenGL.

 

[marksatt]

Cough, cough, are you serious? id Software, Blizzard to name a few and each of their games runs on OpenGL renderer. id has added Vulkan renderer and Blizzard has added Metal. It doesn't mean they're dropping OpenGL.

Original AAA game development using OpenGL has not been common since the introduction of Direct3D 7 - for fairly obvious reasons outside the tiny number of games developed by id Software and the odd Mac/Linux studio every big PC game has been created around Direct3D. All the major game engines in AAA (Unreal, Frostbite, CryEngine, etc.) apart from idTech were/are Direct3D-centric.

That Mac/Linux games and engines (e.g. Unity) have been forced to use OpenGL is not the same as broad industry support - that's just Hobson's choice in effect. OpenGL's API has been out-dated and actual implementations are terribly cruel mistresses so I do not expect anyone in Mac/Linux development will really lament it being superseded by Vulkan/Metal.

With regard to your specific examples: Blizzard do not ship an OpenGL renderer on Windows and id Software have switched to Vulkan. I do not expect Blizzard to maintain support for OpenGL in their Mac games indefinitely - it is quite clear that Apple consider OpenGL deprecated with extreme prejudice

 

[jeanlain]

Sounds about right. I can't really figure out any way to verify this or better yet fix it. :/

As mentioned earlier, iStat menu reports GPU frequency. The problem is, a game cannot be the front application if iStat menu is active.

Mark, while you're here, do you have any insight on what the issue could be? Many laptop users are reporting very big performance decreases on openGL (and Metal?) games on High Sierra.

 

[marksatt]

As mentioned earlier, iStat menu reports GPU frequency. The problem is, a game cannot be the front application if iStat menu is active.

Mark, while you're here, do you have any insight on what the issue could be? Many laptop users are reporting very big performance decreases on openGL (and Metal?) games on High Sierra.

Not a clue. I have heard the 2016/2017 MacBook Pro's sometimes get stuck in a low power-management state that can be cured by resetting the PRAM/NVRAM but nothing widespread to other Macs.

I could suppose that the switch to Metal for WindowServer might have performance impact for OpenGL titles but certainly not very much. I've certainly not seen a big performance delta between Sierra & High Sierra for UE4 which is all Metal. That said I've not been playing a lot of other games on Mac recently because of the pressure to keep our Mac & iOS builds working...

 

[Chris7811]

Power management i.e. graphics switching? I can barely run most 3D games on high Sierra, and when I switch to Windows 10 on boot camp, everything runs buttery smooth. I’m running a 2012 15” MacBook Pro with GeForce 650M and intel 4000 graphics.

I have a 2012 same one it runs 135 degrees F. and steady 50 on win 10 and osx.
[doublepost=1517852378][/doublepost]

Same machine, same graphics card, same godawful performance. Tried all the "tricks" to fix it. Stuff like get info on the game and check "open in low resolution" doesn't make any difference. So we got an upgrade with less stability still no update for OpenGL, but instead an update to Metal, a graphic library that nobody really uses, nobody asked for, and that crashes a lot. Jeez. Can Apple get anything right these days? This is so sad.

did you use crystalidea.com fan controller?