Hoax rule is not being enforced

[SuperMatt]

In the past few months, some forum members have been posting dangerous hoaxes, which is an “instantly bannable” offense according to the Forum Rules.

The posts have been reported, but the message from the moderators has been clear. They will not enforce this rule because they supposedly do not have the resources to “fact-check” posts.

As a result, the MacRumors forums are now home to many instances of dangerous misinformation. I cannot discuss specific posts per forum rules, but the most worrisome categories are: misinformation about a deadly virus, and misinformation about election results in America. These posts have been condemned and removed from major social media sites because they led to uncontrolled spreading of a pandemic in the former case and mob violence in the latter case.

TL;DR: It’s impossible to enforce a rule about hoaxes if one refuses to decide what is or isn’t the truth. I believe the rule should either be enforced or removed.

 

[Apple_Robert]

Use the "Contact US" form and the admins will look into your specific post(s) concerns.

Contact us

forums.macrumors.com

 

[SuperMatt]

Use the "Contact US" form and the admins will look into your specific post(s) concerns.

Contact us

forums.macrumors.com

That step has been taken with a lengthy period of no response; hence this thread.

 

[Geepaw]

I hope OP does not mean that the Magsafe rumors about the MBP 16" are a hoax. That would be infuriating and dangerous to my happiness.

 

[the future]

I recently reported a post that claimed the US presidential election was „stolen“. Answer from mods: „no moderation necessary“. This is not good enough. If moderators don‘t want to delete dangerous, blatant lies, maybe there shouldn‘t be a „Politics (etc.)“ section in this forum at all.

 

[Eraserhead]

Either kill PRSI and be done with it or follow the rules and ban these hoaxes.

The stuff about the US election being stolen is a lie/hoax which has caused a terrorist attack on the US Capitol. It’s not a small thing and shouldn’t be allowed as per the rules which are clearly and blatantly being violated.

Don’t forget in the UK we still let off fireworks every year over someone trying to blow up parliament in 1605. I don’t think this terrorist attack will be forgotten.

 

[robbieduncan]

To play devils advocate these posters may not be engaging in hoaxes/hoaxing. For them to be doing so they would have to know/believe the things they are saying are false. They don’t. In fact quite the contrary.

 

[ouimetnick]

Use the "Contact US" form and the admins will look into your specific post(s) concerns.

Contact us

forums.macrumors.com

I've done that numerous times and Steve always spins it his way to justify their actions. Not sure if posting the entire email thread would be appropriate or be in violation of the rules, but only once has he reversed a mod decision.

 

[JayMysterio]

To play devils advocate these posters may not be engaging in hoaxes/hoaxing. For them to be doing so they would have to know/believe the things they are saying are false. They don’t. In fact quite the contrary.

Isn't that contrary to logic?

If it's something known as a hoax, documented as a hoax, disproven repeatedly, it doesn't matter if one believes it's the hoax. The broken leg from not believing in the laws of gravity, kind of makes the case that disbelief isn't a shield from something being a hoax. Otherwise, all anyone has to say to anything is, "I really really really really really really really really really believe this is sooooooooo true."

And that somehow absolves something from being a hoax how? That's not even counting that we are on an Internet forum where people make up stuff on the regular. I was mistaken in thinking we had to be able to back up our claims with some kind of verifiable truth, otherwise...

 

[the future]

Isn't that contrary to logic?

If it's something known as a hoax, documented as a hoax, disproven repeatedly, it doesn't matter if one believes it's the hoax. The broken leg from not believing in the laws of gravity, kind of makes the case that disbelief isn't a shield from something being a hoax. Otherwise, all anyone has to say to anything is, "I really really really really really really really really really believe this is sooooooooo true."

Exactly! See also this enlightening thread on Twitter:
They absolutely do not believe their own ********, but it's useful for them to pretend they do

 

[retta283]

Either kill PRSI and be done with it or follow the rules and ban these hoaxes.

The stuff about the US election being stolen is a lie/hoax which has caused a terrorist attack on the US Capitol. It’s not a small thing and shouldn’t be allowed as per the rules which are clearly and blatantly being violated.

Don’t forget in the UK we still let off fireworks every year over someone trying to blow up parliament in 1603. I don’t think this terrorist attack will be forgotten.

Very true. Personally, I want the mods to put on a PRSI Removal Poll and let that decide it. There are certain things that can be done to prevent it from being manipulated so I think it's plausible, but it probably won't happen. As it stands these arguments go on and on forever without any mod intervention. Even things that are personally degrading I see stay up. Lies and venom spewed without any recourse, and it's never going to get better in the current climate. So these people must be held accountable and their posts removed because spewing this nonsense is only making the site worse.

 

[Apple_Robert]

These problems have been ongoing for years and years. Even with the rule changes a while back, that section of the forum has stayed a cesspool. And for some reason, MacRumors, feels compelled to keep the cancerous growth, even though there are plenty of political based forums for people to go to, while staying here for tech.

You gents would be better served putting that forum on ignore and not stepping foot inside. That section of the forum isn't about actual debate and exchange of ideas amongst civilized, educated adults. It is the romper room of the forum and always will be. You are wasting precious oxygen imploring the removal of the cancer. Arn won't do what needs to be done. In the end, it's his site and he has show in regards to that forum, he is going to keep it going.

 

[icanhazmac]

Maybe if you don't like PRSI or how it is managed then you should just ignore/filter it?

Sounds more to me like you want it policed, to your standards, canceling any members with thoughts or opinions that fall outside your own personal ones.

 

[SuperMatt]

Maybe if you don't like PRSI or how it is managed then you should just ignore/filter it?

Sounds more to me like you want it policed, to your standards, canceling any members with thoughts or opinions that fall outside your own personal ones.

No, I want it policed according to its own standards as spelled out in its own forum rules. In my OP, I clearly spelled that out.

 

[the future]

Maybe if you don't like PRSI or how it is managed then you should just ignore/filter it?

Sounds more to me like you want it policed, to your standards, canceling any members with thoughts or opinions that fall outside your own personal ones.

There is a clear, obvious distinction between “thoughts or opinions“ and blatant lies. The blurring of this distinction via „alternative facts“ is at the root of the tragic state the US is in right how.

 

[NT1440]

Really? Does anyone think MR is even remotely a source of radicalization of people? It’s not enough that these threads and posts are overwhelmingly ridiculed by the members here? We need to join the short-sighted chorus of censoring the entire internet?

This is an Apple forum with a political sub that users absolutely do not have to interact with. It’s not remotely close to the scale of the modern day public squares like Facebook or Twitter. What’s the harm in us collectively calling these ridiculous threads and posts out?

Today it’s the absurd notion that Trump’s re-election was stolen from him. But what happens to PRSI when things like the effects of US sanctions aren’t debatable but instead we’re only allowed to follow the official narratives? This is an international forum, there’s going to be different views on the big stories in the world. Which country’s official narrative do we decide is the concrete truth when it comes to things like warfare?

 

[arn]

just wanted to post and say I read this, and will look into it further.

 

[SuperMatt]

Really? Does anyone think MR is even remotely a source of radicalization of people? It’s not enough that these threads and posts are overwhelmingly ridiculed by the members here? We need to join the short-sighted chorus of censoring the entire internet?

This is an Apple forum with a political sub that users absolutely do not have to interact with. It’s not remotely close to the scale of the modern day public squares like Facebook or Twitter. What’s the harm in us collectively calling these ridiculous threads and posts out?

Today it’s the absurd notion that Trump’s re-election was stolen from him. But what happens to PRSI when things like the effects of US sanctions aren’t debatable but instead we’re only allowed to follow the official narratives? This is an international forum, there’s going to be different views on the big stories in the world. Which country’s official narrative do we decide is the concrete truth when it comes to things like warfare?

This forum has many other guidelines that result in moderation actions all the time. Are you advocating that there be no rules here whatsoever?

Or that it’s impossible to determine what is true and what isn’t?

That being said, perhaps removing the hoax rule is a possible thing to consider. I’m just saying if they have the rule, it makes sense to enforce it.

 

[laptech]

These problems have been ongoing for years and years. Even with the rule changes a while back, that section of the forum has stayed a cesspool. And for some reason, MacRumors, feels compelled to keep the cancerous growth, even though there are plenty of political based forums for people to go to, while staying here for tech.

You gents would be better served putting that forum on ignore and not stepping foot inside. That section of the forum isn't about actual debate and exchange of ideas amongst civilized, educated adults. It is the romper room of the forum and always will be. You are wasting precious oxygen imploring the removal of the cancer. Arn won't do what needs to be done. In the end, it's his site and he has show in regards to that forum, he is going to keep it going.

Telling members to put 'that' forum on ignore which avoids the sites admin and moderator staff from doing their jobs and enforcing the forum rules is not the way to go. Regardless of the fact that 'that' part of the forum is a cesspool, forum rules still need to be maintained and enforced. It does the site no credit to have moderators respond with 'no moderation required' on threads/posts that sprout hoax or fake news, especially when the topic relates to elections and the pandemic.

The ONLY reason why social media platforms took action against hoax's and fake news is because their lack of moderation action in dealing with them resulted in the platforms being outed in the media. When the social media platforms saw the high levels of bad PR they were getting, they took action because they could not take the chance of having advertisers and sponsors leave in disgust. Maybe the same method needs to be applied to forums as well.

 

[NT1440]

This forum has many other guidelines that result in moderation actions all the time. Are you advocating that there be no rules here whatsoever?

Or that it’s impossible to determine what is true and what isn’t?

That being said, perhaps removing the hoax rule is a possible thing to consider. I’m just saying if they have the rule, it makes sense to enforce it.

Please don’t make the jump to me advocating for no rules, it’s not what I said, and it doesn’t further the conversation at hand.

Unfortunately there are actual matters where truth is fuzzy. I consider the US to be an empire, a point that many Americans don’t recognize as truth, but there is strong supporting evidence and I know international communities consider it to be one as well.

My fear is that the current frenzy of calling for moderation in every corner of the internet based on a current event, will inevitably open the door for the bigger discussions like my example above to be shut down as well.

That’s the entire *history* of information clampdowns and censorship. Always done in response to a shocking event, always leading to those currently in power having new tools at their disposal to shape what the public “truth” is.

I find the sudden uptick in calls on MR to clamp down on or eliminate the entire PRSI forums to be a troubling sign of my thoughts above, because for anyone that isn’t aware Arn runs one of the BEST political forums I’ve ever seen. PRSI gets spicy because it’s hot button issues, but the decorum and community here is problem the *least* toxic online environment I’ve seen to discuss issues of a political nature on, by far.

 

[Apple_Robert]

Telling members to put 'that' forum on ignore which avoids the sites admin and moderator staff from doing their jobs and enforcing the forum rules is not the way to go. Regardless of the fact that 'that' part of the forum is a cesspool, forum rules still need to be maintained and enforced. It does the site no credit to have moderators respond with 'no moderation required' on threads/posts that sprout hoax or fake news, especially when the topic relates to elections and the pandemic.

The ONLY reason why social media platforms took action against hoax's and fake news is because their lack of moderation action in dealing with them resulted in the platforms being outed in the media. When the social media platforms saw the high levels of bad PR they were getting, they took action because they could not take the chance of having advertisers and sponsors leave in disgust. Maybe the same method needs to be applied to forums as well.

I simply suggested those who have a problem with using said forum should remove the problem from their life. It is a simple solution for said members. They won't get frustrated at the cesspool and the staff can continue on dealing with the romper room.

It makes no sense to continue using the PRSI forum that brings so much frustration into their life, every time they are using MR and said forum.

The cesspool is going to keep being a cesspool.

 

[SuperMatt]

Please don’t make the jump to me advocating for no rules, it’s not what I said, and it doesn’t further the conversation at hand.

Unfortunately there are actual matters where truth is fuzzy. I consider the US to be an empire, a point that many Americans don’t recognize as truth, but there is strong supporting evidence and I know international communities consider it to be one as well.

My fear is that the current frenzy of calling for moderation in every corner of the internet based on a current event, will inevitably open the door for the bigger discussions like my example above to be shut down as well.

That’s the entire *history* of information clampdowns and censorship. Always done in response to a shocking event, always leading to those currently in power having new tools at their disposal to shape what the public “truth” is.

I find the sudden uptick in calls on MR to clamp down on or eliminate the entire PRSI forums to be a troubling sign of my thoughts above, because for anyone that isn’t aware Arn runs one of the BEST political forums I’ve ever seen. PRSI gets spicy because it’s hot button issues, but the decorum and community here is problem the *least* toxic online environment I’ve seen to discuss issues of a political nature on, by far.

Just to clarify our positions: I say either enforce the hoax rule or remove it. It seems you are advocating for the 2nd option: remove the rule. I don’t mind that as a possible solution. I hope that means we have found a possible area of agreement.

 

[ericgtr12]

Really? Does anyone think MR is even remotely a source of radicalization of people? It’s not enough that these threads and posts are overwhelmingly ridiculed by the members here? We need to join the short-sighted chorus of censoring the entire internet?

This is an Apple forum with a political sub that users absolutely do not have to interact with. It’s not remotely close to the scale of the modern day public squares like Facebook or Twitter. What’s the harm in us collectively calling these ridiculous threads and posts out?

Today it’s the absurd notion that Trump’s re-election was stolen from him. But what happens to PRSI when things like the effects of US sanctions aren’t debatable but instead we’re only allowed to follow the official narratives? This is an international forum, there’s going to be different views on the big stories in the world. Which country’s official narrative do we decide is the concrete truth when it comes to things like warfare?

When you allow people to knowingly post lies about the election, masks, etc. then absolutely, you are contributing to the spread of misinformation and piling on to people's already stirred up anger. This may lead to worse things, why even be a part of furthering it? Social media platforms driven by the free market are taking a stand, as responsible forum owners MR should too, it's sad to see how far they've fallen victims to their own tangled web of arbitrarily applied rules.

@Eraserhead said it perfectly, kill it. For years we have watched the staff complain incessantly about the "need" for a political area out of one side of their mouths, then summarily berate people people for complaining about a political forum on a tech site. How this irony is lost on them is hard to see.

This site is huge and has a very well established base, as are many other tech boards and most of them do not have a political section, in fact they typically post something up saying no political or religious discussion allowed and that's the end of it. MR could do the same if they chose to.

 

[ouimetnick]

Please don’t make the jump to me advocating for no rules, it’s not what I said, and it doesn’t further the conversation at hand.

Unfortunately there are actual matters where truth is fuzzy. I consider the US to be an empire, a point that many Americans don’t recognize as truth, but there is strong supporting evidence and I know international communities consider it to be one as well.

My fear is that the current frenzy of calling for moderation in every corner of the internet based on a current event, will inevitably open the door for the bigger discussions like my example above to be shut down as well.

That’s the entire *history* of information clampdowns and censorship. Always done in response to a shocking event, always leading to those currently in power having new tools at their disposal to shape what the public “truth” is.

I find the sudden uptick in calls on MR to clamp down on or eliminate the entire PRSI forums to be a troubling sign of my thoughts above, because for anyone that isn’t aware Arn runs one of the BEST political forums I’ve ever seen. PRSI gets spicy because it’s hot button issues, but the decorum and community here is problem the *least* toxic online environment I’ve seen to discuss issues of a political nature on, by far.

Many other sites and forums I frequent have a strict no politics rule. You talk about the topics that the forum is intended for and that’s it. Anytime someone brings up something political, it gets removed.

If Arn is going to have rules, they better be enforced or you don’t have a country forum anymore. Rules are made up as we go along here it seems. The mods interpret things depending on how much sleep they’ve had or how they are feeling that day. A member here created another political site and we have a MacRumors “refugees” section. We post examples of inconsistent moderation, how mods don’t apply the rules evenly, how something doesn’t violate the rules written in the forum rules but someone gets a suspension. Likewise we have examples of things that either violate the rules or are on the edge but “no action is required” after they were reported. So many screenshots and email exchanges showing inconsistencies with Arn’s moderator team.

If mods are going to leave up a post comparing Kamala Harris to a monkey because they don’t think anything is wrong with it, but them remove it a few days later because it derailed the thread, that says a lot about the mods.

 

[svanstrom]

Wait!! Does this mean that it wasn't due to a faulty flux capacitor in my microwave that made it not charge my AirPods Pro without a case?? 😱

I so need to tell the people in that thread about this development!!