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to address the original question about the rule.

The origins of the hoax rule were related to Apple rumors. And specifically someone making a mockup, or making up some absurd Apple rumor and posting it, trying to trick or mislead people. We didn't want that to be a common occurrence, so that's why the hoax rule was setup.

It wasn't necessarily meant for broader more established hoaxes. For example, not sure if we would have used that rule for someone who genuinely thought the moon landing was faked.

I'm not really providing an opinion/decision just yet. Just providing the background.

The online world has changed since you wrote your "hoax" rule.

How politics and political matters are discussed online has changed (and we can discuss the reasons why that has happened, such a discussion would be - or could be - fruitful).

Likewise, how politics has used (and abused) the online space has changed radically (especially over the past half decade).

However, to think that political elites won't demand accountability - and won't insist on some degree of regulation and oversight of online social media platforms (re verification of content, privacy concerns, taxation, accountability) in the wake of demonstrations of how powerful, potentially destructive of democratic structures and institutions, and, at times, utterly irresponsible, sometimes, dangerously irresponsible, the social media platforms have been - may be to misss the point.

Already the social media world is becoming fractured (China is regulating its own space, and the EU has the social media behemoths in its sights), and the argument will be made that if the platforms cannot regulate themsleves, or show reluctance to do so, then, governments will hasten to address this deficiency, as they cannot allow such bodies - more powerful than many, if not most, of the governments on the planet, - to enjoy the many benefits of the free market and of the primacy of the rule of law and legal protections afforded by democratic societies, without taking some responsibility for - or, no longer being able to disclaim responsibility for - what appears, or is posted, on their platforms.

I don’t believe a person’s post ought to be approved by some ministry of truth. If someone wants to post about the moon landing was faked or the world is flat we should not be the arbiters of what is truthfulness.

we easily can be get into deep weeds if we disallow posts because there is a question about its validity.

There are many such topics existing in the prsi specifically related to the election and recent social issues and even the pandemic. I think those people have a right to their opinion. And strictly speaking those are not hoaxes and the hoax rule does not apply

@ericgtr12 has addressed those points and made an answer to them: At that the risk of repeating these arguments, - an opinion that a face mask doesn't work does not detract from the fact that it is false; likewise, an opinion that electoral fraud occurred and that the incumbent won does not detract from the fact that that opinion is also (demonstrably) false.

Both (opinions, statements, posts/threads) are misleading, and are misinformation, and are also a form of misrepresentation, and, by not checking, or challenging, or signalling the doubtful veracity of such material, or the truth of such opinions, the platform serves to spread them, and may be considered not unsympathetic to such opinions.

If MR is to run such discussions, they have some responsibility to ensure some degree of truth, or that a distinction is drawn between what is true, and what is false on their site.

Otherwise, they run the risk of losing credibility, of being seen as a credible source, not merely on politics, but - also on scientific, and on tech matters.

For, sealing off sections of the site, with different standards to be applied to different truths - "we ban hoaxes re Mac matters, but are utterly indifferent to the veracity or otherwise of false facts, false opinions, hoaxes, and lies when posted in our political sections" is not an especially good look, and - longterm - is not really credible across the site.

For, if truth doesn't matter in politics, why should the site be believed when it says that hoaxes are not tolerated when discussing a new Mac?
One's opinion that the mask doesn't work is false. One's opinion that existing president won the election is false. Both are misleading and misinformation that only serves to further spread it. If MR is to allow such discussion, they have some responsibility to ensure some degree of truth on their site, or simply let it run rampant and lose credibility such as Parler or other radicalized platforms.

Excellent post and I'm in complete agreement with you.
Just for sake of argument, what about religion? Certainly even if you believe in a religion you might not believe in someone else’s religion. And some might be dismissive of religion in entirety.

Yes, religion (and here I will state that I, as an exceptionally secular European, harbour profound doubts about such matters) is a matter of opinion.

However, unless you live in a theocracy, or a state govered by religious law, where your rights may be undermined or abolished outright because some religious group, or priestly caste, or theological elite believe that to deprive you of your basic rights is divinely ordained, or, unless (and until) identifying (theologically, or culturally) with a religion becomes a matter of life and death, whereby someone believes they have the (divinely inspired) right to kill you beause you are the wrong religion, a religious "opinion" will not - or, may not - materially affect the lives of people who post here.

Masks and the recent US elections are dramatically different, and it is a genuine tragedy that the issue of mask wearing became so politicised - rather then being viewed as a useful precautionary tool in the field of the provision of public health care - in the US in recent months.

It is one thing to permit such opinions to be posted; it is quite another to permit such opinions to be posted - and allowed to remain - unchallenged by the platform which hosts them.

Such claims - hosted yet uncontested online - have consequences, consequences which have played out in public over the past few weeks.

Of course MR is not solely - or principally - responsible for this, but to deny that it is a part of an online ecosystem that has wilfully washed its hands of - disclaimed, disavowed - responsibility for ensuring the veracity of the more contentious content of what is posted on its platform is to miss the point.

In any case, I have already - in a number of reports - reported the thread in question (and contacted the admins) and set out my reasons for so doing, unfortunately, to no avail. Again, it is relatively easy to devise a system of flagging, or signalling that something is "alleged", or unverified, without having to remove it entirely, and thus suppress the conversation, or discussion or debate.

I am not arguing that such posts (or threads) be removed, but that posts, and threads, that are dangerously and demonstrably false be flagged as such.

Besides, the days when online platforms could cheerfully disclaim any responsibility for the content on their platforms may be drawing to a close, not least because a different administration will take office from this week.
 
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In the OP, I laid out 2 categories of examples of hoaxes that led to physical harm of people: misinformation on a deadly pandemic, and misinformation that led to deadly mob violence. If there is a hoax rule, these are the bare minimum, IMHO, that need to be policed.
Posting that drinking xxxx (poison) will cure coronavirus could be a deadly hoax. Definitely I agree with you on those types of posts and they should be moderated. Posting that masks don't help contain coronavirus to me is a misinformed opinion worthy of a discussion.

Similarly a direct "call to arms" to overthrow the government is probably illegal in every context. But the way to counter misinformation is with correct information. And if someone is trolling the forums with misinformation, seems logical to correct them with authoritative sources and if it continues then report the post along with the citation. Clear cut examples should be easy for the moderators/admins to come to a conclusion on.
 
[...]
Excellent post and I'm in complete agreement with you.
[...]
Let's say someone's child/teenager says to their parent that masks don't do anything to stop the spread of covid-19. The parent's response is to send the child/teenager to the room and take away their allowance and playstation for a week.

That's an equivalent discussion of what moderators should do with such posts. In the case of your child/teenager you may want to have a discussion about why that notion is not correct, backed up with some links to medical journals, but a nuclear response doesn't resolve the issue.

Same on MR, one would want to have a fact based discussion on it. If you are worried about someone actually believing it from a post on MR, don't be. That type of person would be sucked into the world of misinformation and disinformation faster than the blink of an eye and hopefully that person can be capable or critical thinking in the future.
 
Let's say someone's child/teenager says to their parent that masks don't do anything to stop the spread of covid-19. The parent's response is to send the child/teenager to the room and take away their allowance and playstation for a week.

That's an equivalent discussion of what moderators should do with such posts. In the case of your child/teenager you may want to have a discussion about why that notion is not correct, backed up with some links to medical journals, but a nuclear response doesn't resolve the issue.

Same on MR, one would want to have a fact based discussion on it. If you are worried about someone actually believing it from a post on MR, don't. That type of person would be sucked into the world of misinformation and disinformation faster than the blink of an eye.
That last part is an excellent reason for not letting missinformation go unchecked in mainstream forums.
 
That last part is an excellent reason for not letting missinformation go unchecked in mainstream forums.
That's my point, the last part is the worst reason for not having the discussion, then the person without critical thinking skills get's their misinformation somewhere else without a balancing opinion. At least on MacRumors, someone can get an alternative point of view.
 
That's my point, the last part is the worst reason for not having the discussion, then the person without critical thinking skills get's their misinformation somewhere else without a balancing opinion. At least on MacRumors, someone can get an alternative point of view.
There's this silly moral dilemma-situation proposed in the format of whether or not you'd kill Hitler if you found yourself back in time. Sort of preemptively stopping the whole thing before it happens.

The idea is to play with different forms of moral theories, ontology etc. (Definitely a fun thing to do with the right friends, over a couple of drinks.)

Nowadays I would like to propose an extended version of that dilemma:

If you found yourself back in time; would you kill Hitler, or would you fight for his free speech rights?!

Like right now you are fighting for their right to continue spreading their misinformation (I'm being philosophical here; so this fits no matter who "they" are, and whatever their "misinformation" is); and is that really a good thing? Is it the right thing to do to argue that misinformation should be allowed to spread in a public forum, just because then someone might argue against it?
 
And if the mod disagrees with the fact checking source and thus responds with 'no moderation required', then what because admins will 99.9% back the moderators decison.

Then as a representative of this site the mod(s) are "correct" and you don't have much recourse. At that point you will need to decide if this community is worth staying a part of for you, if it is not then you are free to create your own community with your own rules.

To be honest, it would be a lot easier to just to give the media info from the PRSI section an say 'look media, this is the type of person that buys Apple products, does Apple really want to sell to such people?' and then let the fall out begin.

WOW! You strike me as one of these people that scans social media posts looking for things you don't like and then forwarding them to peoples employers trying to get them fired. One day you will find yourself on the other side of this kind of behavior.
 
Hi ckoerner,

Glad to see you still here. :)

There is a common refrain that we keep politics around as a feature, not a bug. But we've taken steps to limit politics to specific areas. In fact, as a user with 47 posts, you actually don't have access to our non-news politics forum, which is limited to those with > 100 posts. They are also not browsable by guests.

As for the news stories. That remains up for debate, as evidenced by this thread. We did recently test turning comments off completely from a news story.


We are still trying that out.

While I now have the politics section on ignore. Nor do I care for the political posts that end up in articles.

I found this quite disheartening. It just felt like if there is no discussion whatsoever. What was the point of the article? This isn't the BBC, whose purpose is to report the news, it's a forum. A public meeting place for open discussion.

It made me immediately look for an ignore option. If there can't be any discussion. I don't want to read it and want to permanently ignore any future content that doesn't allow any discussion.

Quite frankly. While I love Macrumor. It brings forward interesting tidbits, news, reviews, editorials and rumors about Apple and some of the tech industry at large. If it devolves to articles without discussion. Journalistic standards need to go way up with a professional news and review staff. To compete with major tech publications.

I think such a move would quietly and slowly lose membership more than anything this site has changed in the past. Apple news without discussion is almost sacrilegious for this site. While some people can't stand political comments. More likely political comments they don't agree with. I think far fewer people can stand a complete clampdown on any and all discussion.

Without discussion. The articles become less interesting. As the members are no longer actively engaged. They are just passively reading content. While an angry member may leave with a bang. Bored members just fade away.
 
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There's this silly moral dilemma-situation proposed in the format of whether or not you'd kill Hitler if you found yourself back in time. Sort of preemptively stopping the whole thing before it happens.

The idea is to play with different forms of moral theories, ontology etc. (Definitely a fun thing to do with the right friends, over a couple of drinks.)

Nowadays I would like to propose an extended version of that dilemma:

If you found yourself back in time; would you kill Hitler, or would you fight for his free speech rights?!

Like right now you are fighting for their right to continue spreading their misinformation (I'm being philosophical here; so this fits no matter who "they" are, and whatever their "misinformation" is); and is that really a good thing? Is it the right thing to do to argue that misinformation should be allowed to spread in a public forum, just because then someone might argue against it?
The past events of WW2 weren't under my control. What is under my control are my responses in this thread related to the topic at hand. What your post is about is asking the question: "have you stopped beating your wife/husband...yes or no"

I am in favor for abolishing misinformation with factual information.
 
I am in favor for abolishing misinformation with factual information.

THIS!

Canceling, banning and deleting are the worst possible ways to deal with misinformation or bad ideas, only in the public light of debate can you hope to educate both yourself and others.
 
THIS!

Canceling, banning and deleting are the worst possible ways to deal with misinformation or bad ideas, only in the public light of debate can you hope to educate both yourself and others.
Looking forward to you from now on being in charge of making sure that everyone that reads misinformation on MR must also take their time to read your carefully fact-checked counter-arguments.
 
The rule as posted is, "Hoaxes. Purposely misleading other members to their detriment. Giving advice you know to be incorrect or harmful. Sensationalism."

Hoax and misinformation are two different animals. The rule correctly explains, "purposely misleading other members to their detriment." Ignorantly spreading misinformation is just that; it's not a hoax. A hoax would be something like telling members about a non-existent Mac virus and the only way to get rid of it is to use a terminal command that ends up eraseing their hard drive.

Now perhaps there should be a rule concerning misinformation but it's a slippery slope. How would mininformation be arbitrated and what constitutes detriment?
 
Looking forward to you from now on being in charge of making sure that everyone that reads misinformation on MR must also take their time to read your carefully fact-checked counter-arguments.
Also looking forward to seeing the fact checked information so misinformation can be classified correctly.
 
Edit: [self-censored]

Sorry, I actually completely spaced out about who I was replying to.
 
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Looking forward to you from now on being in charge of making sure that everyone that reads misinformation on MR must also take their time to read your carefully fact-checked counter-arguments.

/sigh drama much?

I will not be in charge of anything, that is the job of the community. No one individual can be a fact checking expert on every topic but they probably have some knowledge or expertise on individual topics.

My point is that most people have a tribe or team that they are on for religion, politics, cars, coffee, etc. These days it becomes easier and easier to find yourself in an echo chamber where others on your team shore up your beliefs (right or wrong) while demonizing others. I am very sure that any 2 members of MR can site 5 references to support any topic they feel strongly about and both sides will claim the other is "fake news". Now some look to the host or platform to settle the score, support their side and cancel the other, this is where I have a problem. The platform should NOT be trying to vet competing sources of "facts" and determining a winner. Personally I do not want MR spending all its resources vetting individual PRSI posts. Let everyone have their voice and let the community at large debate the ideas presented. I guarantee that you will not like some of the voices from the other team(s) but that does not mean they should be canceled.

Echo chambers of blind support are the real danger.
 
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/sigh drama much?

I will not be in charge of anything, that is the job of the community. No one individual can be a fact checking expert on every topic but they probably have some knowledge or expertise on individual topics.

My point is that most people have a tribe or team that they are on for religion, politics, cars, coffee, etc. These days it becomes easier and easier to find yourself in an echo chamber where others on your team shore up your beliefs while demonizing others. I am very sure that any 2 members of MR can site 5 references to support any topic they feel strongly about and both sides will claim the other is "fake news". Now some look to the host or platform to settle the score, support their side and cancel the other, this is where I have a problem. The platform should NOT be trying to vet competing sources of "facts" and determining a winner. Let everyone have their voice and let the community at large debate the ideas presented. I guarantee that you will not like some of the voices from the other team(s) but that does not mean they should be canceled.

Echo chambers of blind support are the real danger.
When they cause armed people attacking a pizza place or try to overthrow a legitimate government it goes beyond just having a different opinion.
 
When they cause armed people attacking a pizza place or try to overthrow a legitimate government it goes beyond just having a different opinion.

Without public discourse that includes both sides how do you hope to reach people with extreme ideals?

There are some, probably the 1% extreme of each team or side that simply cannot be reached and will do what they do.

Though diverse, open communication I would hope that the larger community can help the next couple of percentage points of extremists come back to a more central and reasonable position on any topic. However, if you lock those people in an echo chamber or force them underground they are probably lost and the problematic ideas fester and grow.
 
Without public discourse that includes both sides how do you hope to reach people with extreme ideals?
What I do expect is them not in the name of openness getting a [expletive] parade to show off their crazy and hand out pamphlets; when they themselves are going out of their way to forcefully silence those that don't agree with them.

FFS, they are instigating murders. It's that bad. And that can't be ignored by us privileged enough to not be their direct targets.
 
Who causes? A MacRumors post was the cause of recent current events?
Disinformation spread on other platforms led to that. If MR doesn’t do something about such content here, it could happen here. That’s what we’re trying to prevent. Are you suggesting waiting until something like that actually happens here before action is taken? Act now to prevent it from happening here. Learn from others’ mistakes.
 
Disinformation spread on other platforms led to that. If MR doesn’t do something about such content here, it could happen here. That’s what we’re trying to prevent. Are you suggesting waiting until something like that actually happens here before action is taken? Act now to prevent it from happening here. Learn from others’ mistakes.
Sounds like censorship. I am not advocating the MR host any illegal content or change any of the TOS. But if someone posts pandemic misinformation that "masks are not effective in this pandemic", I do not advocate "censorship". If political misinformation is posted that does not violate any other guideline, I do not advocate "censorship".

This seems to be going in the direction that without additional moderation (this innuendo, disinformation or misinformation) that MR hosts will cause MR to become a haven for extremists as a call to action for illegal acts. I'm not buying that line of thought, personally. (but the decisions in such matters are out of my hands, obviously)
 
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Sounds like censorship. I am not advocating the MR host any illegal content or change any of the TOS. But if someone posts pandemic misinformation that "masks are not effective in this pandemic", I do not advocate "censorship". If political misinformation is posted that does not violate any other guideline, I do not advocate "censorship".

This seems to be going in the direction that without additional moderation (this innuendo, disinformation or misinformation) that MR hosts will cause MR to become a haven for extremists as a call to action for illegal acts. I'm not buying that line of thought, personally. (but the decisions in such matters are out of my hands, obviously)
I certainly appreciate your opinion on this. The rule on hoaxes already exists. The question is: should they keep it? I think the current situation of the rule being there but mods saying they will not enforce it is untenable.

And as for censorship... this forum is already heavily censored. Don’t believe me? Go on a thread and start calling people names and/or usimg vulgar language.

If there will be censorship based on rules, which you and everybody else agreed to when we signed up here, then I believe those rules should be enforced.
 
In the past few months, some forum members have been posting dangerous hoaxes, which is an “instantly bannable” offense according to the Forum Rules.

The posts have been reported, but the message from the moderators has been clear. They will not enforce this rule because they supposedly do not have the resources to “fact-check” posts.

As a result, the MacRumors forums are now home to many instances of dangerous misinformation. I cannot discuss specific posts per forum rules, but the most worrisome categories are: misinformation about a deadly virus, and misinformation about election results in America. These posts have been condemned and removed from major social media sites because they led to uncontrolled spreading of a pandemic in the former case and mob violence in the latter case.

TL;DR: It’s impossible to enforce a rule about hoaxes if one refuses to decide what is or isn’t the truth. I believe the rule should either be enforced or removed.

That has been their attitude forever and their selective enforcement of the rules too, same thing said by different accounts and actions taken as well. Depends on who you are and what they want to do to you about it. Not has it broken this rule in the same way as this other one we do nothing about. See it all the time and had it happen to me getting banned/silenced for doing the exactly same as someone who did not get that treatment. Or the silent editing they do...
 
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