HomePod and HomePod mini to Gain Support For Apple Music Lossless Audio in Future Software Update

[jsalda]

Glad I bought those two homepods. Just like 3D Touch, they failed on the marketing. The HomePod sucks when compared to Alexa and all that other stuff for smarts. But it does the basic stuff I need that google home did.

But, it’s a freakishly incredible sounding device and adding this functionality pushes ir closer to soundbar/home audio space.

there’s no way a HomePod successor isn’t inbound. While discontinued, new features are still inbound.

I very rarely use Siri on my HPM for anything other than weather forecasts or telling it what to play music wise. The audio quality is so much better than the competition. I always cringe when I go to someones house and they're using Alexa or Google devices for music. The fact that I can also run the music through my AppleTV/7.1 SS system and the iPhone automatically will adjust the delay is another plus. Took me 10 minutes to manually tweak an Alexa/FireStick system to do the same

 

[Ethosik]

Ugh I was in the market for a Homepod and when I heard the big one is getting discontinued I got the mini instead. So they still support it? Should I get the big one?

 

[B/D]

Ugh I was in the market for a Homepod and when I heard the big one is getting discontinued I got the mini instead. So they still support it? Should I get the big one?

The mini will support lossless as well, but not Dolby Atmos.

 

[hooptyuber]

AirPlay 2 doesn't support lossless streaming as of right now.

That isn't what Apple says. https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2017/509/

 

[hooptyuber]

You probably wont even notice the difference on a homepod. It’s hardly a high-end speaker.

It's not a high end speaker but even marginally improving its performance seems like a good thing.

 

[hooptyuber]

I find it odd that people get so worked up over something that 99% of them won't be able to hear anyway.

There's a good argument to be made that the quality even via 256kbps AAC will be better if it's being converted only once rather than twice (I don't know if that is the case at the moment, does the AAC audio from iTunes require conversion over Bluetooth to the AirPods, or is it the same exact audio?). But beyond that, this is a feature that most people won't even notice.

To me, that's a bit like saying “Oh, this 3 megapixel camera is fine. Most people won't notice the difference between this and 20 megapixels anyway.” “This oxcart is fine for going to the market. It's not that much slower than a Toyota Camry for such a trip anyway.” Is that really a litmus we want? Advance the technology and see what happens.

 

[Ethosik]

The mini will support lossless as well, but not Dolby Atmos.

I didn’t think the big Homepod would be still supported. So I didn’t get one. Apparently it sounds better and has Atmos.

 

[Deliro]

All the effort for a discontinued product. Why Apple???

Why not? Plenty people have them, and how do you know what the level of effort is?

 

[justperry]

Ok, but I was talking about the HomePod not the AirPods max lol

How could I have known...

 

[dannyyankou]

How could I have known...

I said “now we’re talking”, which is an expression used for good news. The good news in this case was the HomePod supporting lossless.

 

[cmaier]

To me, that's a bit like saying “Oh, this 3 megapixel camera is fine. Most people won't notice the difference between this and 20 megapixels anyway.” “This oxcart is fine for going to the market. It's not that much slower than a Toyota Camry for such a trip anyway.” Is that really a litmus we want? Advance the technology and see what happens.

Except that 3mp vs. 20mp is provably noticeable at large print sizes and not noticeable at tiny print sizes, whereas lossless vs high bit rate aac is provably not noticeable by anyone in every blind scientifically-conducted test.

 

[hooptyuber]

Except that 3mp vs. 20mp is provably noticeable at large print sizes and not noticeable at tiny print sizes

Then 12mp vs 20mp. Quibbling over the specifics of the analogy doesn't invalidate the point.

provably not noticeable by anyone

False.

 

[cmaier]

Then 12mp vs 20mp. Quibbling over the specifics of the analogy doesn't invalidate the point.



False.

True.

Is your audio system really ready for lossless?

Do an ABX test in your browser, and see if you can tell the difference between lossless and Spotify-compression quality audio

abx.digitalfeed.net

High Bitrate MP3 Internet Blind Test: Part 2 - RESULTS

A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.

archimago.blogspot.com

Subjective Evaluation of MP3 Compression for Different Musical Genres

Mp3 compression is commonly used to reduce the size of digital music files but introduces a number of potentially audible artifacts, especially at low bitrates. We investigated whether listeners prefer CD quality to mp3 files at various bitrates (96

www.academia.edu

There are a million more. Any time people have been blind-tested, nobody can tell which is which.

 

[jmw1480]

This is music to my ears.

Yeah, but you prob cant tell a difference 😅

 

[Apple_Robert]

Yeah, but you prob cant tell a difference 😅

Touche'. I will probably resubscribe to Apple Music anyway. I can't take listening to mindless prattle or commercials on the car radio any longer.

 

[zakarhino]

I understand converting analog 3.5mm to digital will lose quality, but can’t APM just use a lightning to lightning cable to keep it all lossless digital (until the final digital to analog conversion in the headphones)?


How do you know this? This is not what I understand to be true. I believe it supports at least CD (lossless) quality. I did a quick search and this article says “technically speaking, Airplay 2 is capable of Hi-Res audio but sampling rate is limited to that of CD.”

Can Airplay 2 support Hi-Res Audio? – Game & Tech Focus

Did you mean it doesn’t support hi res streaming as of right now? Otherwise, source?


The article says wired APM do not support true lossless audio because of the analog to digital conversion (of the cable), not digital to analog.
As I understand it, “lossless” is only a term that applies to digital data, not analog. Eventually, all digital audio must be converted to analog audio by a DAC in order for humans to hear it (other Bluetooth headphones and even homepod has a DAC too), so you want lossless audio up until that very last conversion to analog. But once it’s analog, it cannot be considered lossless any more.
Of course, you do get varying levels of final audio quality based how how good the DAC is (as well as the amp and speakers, all of this built into the APM).
So since the 3.5mm (analog) to lightning (digital) cable interrupts the lossless transmission, what I’m wondering is why you can use a lightning to lightning cable in order to keep the signal digital and lossless all the way through (until APM converts it to analog for final sound).

I don’t remember the part of the article you’re referring to, and not sure if I know exactly what you mean, but as I understand it, basically when a device like an iPhone has lossless audio and streams it to the airpods via Bluetooth, because of Bluetooth’s limited bandwidth, the audio HAS to be compressed as it is streamed, which HAS to lose quality. So as far as I know, any wireless AirPods can never receive a lossless transmission.

Yes I meant it doesn’t support it as of right now. It’s entirely possible to implement but it would be AirPlay 3 or some other software update.

 

[zakarhino]

That isn't what Apple says. https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2017/509/

View attachment 1779584

the slide literally says 44.1 or 48kHz. Apple’s technical support docs also say it doesn’t support the full 192kHz 24 bit format that Apple’s HiFi lossless uses. It’s possible to update the software for some devices I imagine.

 

[hooptyuber]

the slide literally says 44.1 or 48kHz. Apple’s technical support docs also say it doesn’t support the full 192kHz 24 bit format that Apple’s HiFi lossless uses. It’s possible to update the software for some devices I imagine.

16/44.1 LPCM is the lossless Red Book standard for audio CD's. ALAC is typically 16/44.1 and also lossless.

24/192 is high resolution and I doubt there will be many 24/192 music files offered for streaming on Apple Music. Almost all of the lossless streaming on Apple Music will be 16/44.1.

 

[cr2]

So I’m confused. Will the lightning to 3.5mm cable allow Airpods Max to play lossless? What does not “completely lossless” mean?

The more I read, the more confused I get. (Obviously - not an expert in audio)

What will I need to be able to hear 'near' lossless audio on Airpod Max? Do I need a special cable to connect to iPhone. Is this quality far better than Apple Lossless format when I copy my CDs to music? Most of my music is transferred from CDs to Mac and then moved to iPhones.

 

[hooptyuber]

True.

Is your audio system really ready for lossless?

Do an ABX test in your browser, and see if you can tell the difference between lossless and Spotify-compression quality audio

abx.digitalfeed.net

High Bitrate MP3 Internet Blind Test: Part 2 - RESULTS

A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.

archimago.blogspot.com

Subjective Evaluation of MP3 Compression for Different Musical Genres

Mp3 compression is commonly used to reduce the size of digital music files but introduces a number of potentially audible artifacts, especially at low bitrates. We investigated whether listeners prefer CD quality to mp3 files at various bitrates (96

www.academia.edu

There are a million more. Any time people have been blind-tested, nobody can tell which is which.

Dewd...From your third source: “Listeners significantly preferred CD quality to mp3 files up to 192 kb/s for all musical genres.” Later, they say “Regarding higher bitrates (256 and 320 kbits/s), they could not discriminate CD quality over mp3 while expert listeners, with more years of studio experience, could in the same listening conditions in Sutherland’s study [8].” That doesn't exactly match with “provably not noticeable by anyone.”

Anyone with decent ears and enough interest could qualify as an “expert listener.”

Is a 14-year-old listening to random pop music on their iPad's speakers going to notice a difference between 256 AAC and lossless? Very likely not. But let's not do away with lossless because not everyone has the ears, interest, or gear to appreciate it.

The other links (which are interesting, thank you) amount to an internet self test and a rather informal and rambling blog post.

 

[matrix07]

I understand converting analog 3.5mm to digital will lose quality,

I won't say it lose quality. I will simply say it's 'not identical' to the original lossless. I doubt anyone can hear a difference (esp when the original is as high as 24/192). Nevertheless Apple can't say it's 'lossless' when they're not identical.

but can’t APM just use a lightning to lightning cable to keep it all lossless digital (until the final digital to analog conversion in the headphones)?

That's what smart people at Apple needs to think about. I believe they can do something about it if they choose. They might not think it's a big deal to warrant doing something about it however.

 

[ignatius345]

All the effort for a discontinued product. Why Apple???

Why not? Fact is, the HomePod Mini sounds like crap compared to the full-sized HomePod. I'd actually ask the opposite question, which is why bother channeling lossless audio to a tiny $99 speaker.

And to zoom out for a minute, Apple's above-and-beyond support for products years after purchase (even after they're discontinued) is one of the reasons they're worth the premium. I got a security update for my old AirPort Extreme as recently as, I believe, 2019. Do you have a problem with that too?

 

[Braderunner]

View attachment 1779133

Seriously? You don’t know the difference between but, and butt?

 

[007Josef]

All the effort for a discontinued product. Why Apple???

I guess you are not somebody that invested these? As somebody that has purchased several in the last 6 months (prior to them being pulled) I‘m very grateful. I went all in with them and sold almost all my of Sonos speakers. So the fact that any technology company is still offering not only support but new and improved functionality for existing/end of line products to their customers is something that should be saluted- I feel my investments are paying off. They just better not release another pair of AirPods Max for the next 18 months!!!!

 

[btrach144]

I guess you are not somebody that invested these? As somebody that has purchased several in the last 6 months (prior to them being pulled) I‘m very grateful. I went all in with them and sold almost all my of Sonos speakers. So the fact that any technology company is still offering not only support but new and improved functionality for existing/end of line products to their customers is something that should be saluted- I feel my investments are paying off. They just better not release another pair of AirPods Max for the next 18 months!!!!

My comment was why discontinue it AppleNot why would Apple invest in their discontinued product lol

and yes, I have multiple OG homepods and multiple HomePod minis. I’m grateful they aren’t abandoning them but I would have preferred they put all this effort into a HomePod V2 rather than features for a product they don’t sell anymore.