Horrible Thermal Paste in Brand New MBP

[NewSc2]

My 2.4ghz 15.4" Macbook Pro runs at 84c under full load. I'm calling Apple about this tomorrow. Not good. Not good at all!

My 2.16ghz runs at about the same under full load too... idle is about 50 when powered, 45 when running off of battery. Like somebody else stated it bothers me but not enough for me to reapply my thermal paste or call Apple.

General CPU-intensive stuff (running iTunes visualizer, encoding mp3s) gets me to about high 60's, 70.

 

[heyguyswhatsup]

When I run WoW (or Windows) I ramp the fans up to 6000rpms using SMC Fan Control. This generally keeps my temperature around 50C, but they are at 6000 rpms around 5-6 hours per day. Will this have any detrimental effects on the fans?

 

[eb3604]

A. The point of thermal paste is to help conduct heat between the chip and the heatpipe/heatsink/etc. The chips are not lapped, and contain many grooves and microscopic holes. AS5 specifically contains different size particles that fit in the grooves/holes and help conduct heat. That is the reason you don't want to much is that the main purpose isn't to act as a layer between the two surfaces, more like create a lapped-like environment.

B. My question is, whoever has replaced the thermal paste, when replacing the heatpipe or whatever goes over the chips, when re-lifting it up, does the thermal paste make contact with it? Maybe apple uses so much because there is a gap between the chip and heatpipe. In that case, you should buy some copper plating 1.5mm thick or w/e seems applicable. clean the plate with some soldering paste or something acidic. put some as5 on each side of the plate, then put in place, and re-assemble. Copper is one of the best conductors of heat.

C. I'm guessing the gobs of thermal paste is to cut costs. I'm not sure if robots or a person assembles macbooks, but either way to apply the precise amount of thermal paste in a razor thin layer would take more time than just put a glob on it. More time=higher costs.

 

[technogeek]

Theory on the paste strategy

It would appear that Apple has stuck with its manufacturing policy of applying gobs of thermal paste in manufacturing it's notebooks, because the complaints are nothing new, and according to http://home.sc.rr.com/mixedbag/MBP/Photos.html, "every MBP opened, photographed and put to the web has looked like this or very similar".

It may have to do with risk tradeoffs. Perhaps---this is speculation---if the assemblers were told to put the correct amount of paste on the chips, a very thin film, there would be a certain fraction of them which would get too little paste. And I would guess that too little paste might cause more dangerous heat buildup than too much paste, so these units would be DOA.

Or perhaps the process of applying the correct amount is more time consuming (the smearing of the paste with the flat edge and removing the excess), or adds other risk in the process. And when Apple adds up the numbers, it might turn out better for them (in their total evaluation) to tell the assemblers to use plenty of paste.

But these possibilities seem a bit far fetched --- how difficult can it be to put the proper layer on? When then, would these keep coming out with so much paste?

 

[Erasmus]

Very unfortunate.
So are people saying that the MBP actually has the X3100 integrated graphics card in it? Or it just has a slot where it should be placed?
Maybe the X3100 compatible board is also compatible with turbocache, while the other one without the X3100 compatibility is not? (Too many compatibles in a sentence, apologies)

Hopefully Apple fixes this sooner rather than later.

 

[Animalk]

A. The point of thermal paste is to help conduct heat between the chip and the heatpipe/heatsink/etc. The chips are not lapped, and contain many grooves and microscopic holes. AS5 specifically contains different size particles that fit in the grooves/holes and help conduct heat. That is the reason you don't want to much is that the main purpose isn't to act as a layer between the two surfaces, more like create a lapped-like environment.

B. My question is, whoever has replaced the thermal paste, when replacing the heatpipe or whatever goes over the chips, when re-lifting it up, does the thermal paste make contact with it? Maybe apple uses so much because there is a gap between the chip and heatpipe. In that case, you should buy some copper plating 1.5mm thick or w/e seems applicable. clean the plate with some soldering paste or something acidic. put some as5 on each side of the plate, then put in place, and re-assemble. Copper is one of the best conductors of heat.

C. I'm guessing the gobs of thermal paste is to cut costs. I'm not sure if robots or a person assembles macbooks, but either way to apply the precise amount of thermal paste in a razor thin layer would take more time than just put a glob on it. More time=higher costs.

I would fire the apple engineer who designed a gap between the heatpipe and the chips. As a matter of fact, I don't think he should be an engineer period.

In my opinion, form looking at several different cases on the internet, the application of such a huge amount of thermal paste has no gain other then guaranteeing that the entire contact surface between the chip and the heatpipe has some paste no matter how bad the assembly was.

 

[poke4christ]

eb3604, have you applied thermal paste before? Not trying to call you out or anything, just curious. Thing about the paste is it sounds more difficult than it is. You simply spread it on and let the pressure between the heatsink and the chip spread it out. As Animalk said, any designer who designs a gap needs to have his head examined because he doesn't know crap about computers. You need a VERY close connection to get as much heat transfer as possible. Without the heatsink, the processor would blowup in no time flat. If there was a gap, it would be because of bad assembly/part design.

My question is, do other laptops have this same problem? Is it a industry standard or is it simply an apple problem. I'm guessing that the assembly/screw up is in China since that's where my MBP is being shipped from. Has anybody taken apart a dell or other brand laptop and checked it out?

 

[Animalk]

eb3604, have you applied thermal paste before? Not trying to call you out or anything, just curious. Thing about the paste is it sounds more difficult than it is. You simply spread it on and let the pressure between the heatsink and the chip spread it out. As Animalk said, any designer who designs a gap needs to have his head examined because he doesn't know crap about computers. You need a VERY close connection to get as much heat transfer as possible. Without the heatsink, the processor would blowup in no time flat. If there was a gap, it would be because of bad assembly/part design.

My question is, do other laptops have this same problem? Is it a industry standard or is it simply an apple problem. I'm guessing that the assembly/screw up is in China since that's where my MBP is being shipped from. Has anybody taken apart a dell or other brand laptop and checked it out?

My dell inspiron 5160 had much less thermal paste after i opened her up two years after purchase. The paste was almost non existant between the heatsink/heatpipe and the chips, and there was a little excess on the sides.

Now that I think of it, maybe apple is trying to make the thermal paste last as long as possible even if its not the ideal amount? I don't know anything about the life of thermal paste but my Dell Inspiron had almost none left after 2 years.

Also, there are clearly different quality grades of thermal paste available so are there any experts out there that can give an opinion on the one used by the Apple factory?

 

[iW00t]

My dell inspiron 5160 had much less thermal paste after i opened her up two years after purchase. The paste was almost non existant between the heatsink/heatpipe and the chips, and there was a little excess on the sides.

Now that I think of it, maybe apple is trying to make the thermal paste last as long as possible even if its not the ideal amount? I don't know anything about the life of thermal paste but my Dell Inspiron had almost none left after 2 years.

Also, there are clearly different quality grades of thermal paste available so are there any experts out there that can give an opinion on the one used by the Apple factory?

Apple uses the very best gold oxide thermal paste.

 

[eb3604]

eb3604, have you applied thermal paste before? Not trying to call you out or anything, just curious. Thing about the paste is it sounds more difficult than it is. You simply spread it on and let the pressure between the heatsink and the chip spread it out. As Animalk said, any designer who designs a gap needs to have his head examined because he doesn't know crap about computers. You need a VERY close connection to get as much heat transfer as possible. Without the heatsink, the processor would blowup in no time flat. If there was a gap, it would be because of bad assembly/part design.

My question is, do other laptops have this same problem? Is it a industry standard or is it simply an apple problem. I'm guessing that the assembly/screw up is in China since that's where my MBP is being shipped from. Has anybody taken apart a dell or other brand laptop and checked it out?

yes I have assembled many desktops and have taken apart a few old notebooks to reapply paste. my crappy dell integrated graphics chip had a gap between the heatsink and chip. dell used thermal pads which are a bit thicker but still there was a gap between. I had to use some copper plating to get a snug fit.

 

[nikhsub1]

Apple uses the very best gold oxide thermal paste.

Hopefully, that is a joke - gold is a TERRIBLE conductor of heat. Anyway, I had a hunch, a theory if you will. I took my logic board out YET AGAIN... why? To test my theory. First, with my THIN layer of thermal paste, remember I used this special diamond paste which was VERY thick, almost like cold peanut butter. Well, the chips were making good contact with the sinks, no problem there at all. Now for my theory - I would bet anything that the thermal paste being used is Shin-Etsu G751, this is my paste of choice for my watercooled desktop machine. This paste DOES NOT AND WILL NOT SPEAD it is too thick. Intel spec for desktop mount pressure is ~50 to 70 lbs. With that amount of pressure excess will ooze out no matter the paste's viscosity. I dont know what Intel's mount pressure spec is for bare die CPU's (Desktop CPU's have an IHS - Integrated Heat Spreader covering the die, our notebook cpu's do not) but I can assure you it is no where near that of a desktop. If I had to guess I would say no more than 35 lbs. Anyway, with such little mount pressure excess thermal paste, especially the stuff Apple is using, is not going to easily ooze out. Again I believe this paste is Shin-Etsu G751 which many many OEM's use as it is very good and lasts a long time. So, if the stock paste is slopped inbetween the chips and the sinks some will ooze out, but not all of it! Please go back and look at my link to the large picture - note how much paste is on the chips! WAY too much! Here is a picture of the thermal paste on a desktop CPU after testing a bowed waterblock - the block was convex, you will note the strip going from top to bottom just off center - note how the paste was squished out! This paste in the below picture is Ceramique.

Anyway, tonight I removed the diamond paste which was also thick, not quite as thick as the stock stuff but still very viscous. I replaced it with Ceramique! I was fairly liberal with it (to test my theory) and my temps are now BETTER THAN EVER. Hard to give a number just yet as I just loaded the snot out of it with Intels Thermal Analysis Tool in windows.

To reiterate my theory once more - The amount of paste being used by Apple is NOT THE PROBLEM as people have stated, what is the problem is the viscosity of the paste, it is far too thick to ooze out from between chips and sink leaving a much thicker amount of paste which will hinder cooling in a bad way.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it

 

[poke4christ]

Anyway, tonight I removed the diamond paste which was also thick, not quite as thick as the stock stuff but still very viscous. I replaced it with Ceramique! I was fairly liberal with it (to test my theory) and my temps are now BETTER THAN EVER.

Ceramique is just the stuff you might buy at Radio Shack right?

 

[poke4christ]

yes I have assembled many desktops and have taken apart a few old notebooks to reapply paste. my crappy dell integrated graphics chip had a gap between the heatsink and chip. dell used thermal pads which are a bit thicker but still there was a gap between. I had to use some copper plating to get a snug fit.

Cool. Like I said I wasn't meaning to offend. Seems like we are just under different impressions. I guess some manufactures have made larger gaps and still thought they could get a good connection between the chip and the heatsink.

 

[jsbarone]

I ran Seti@Home via Boinko (is that what it's called) and maxed out my CPU usage. According to iStat, my MBP got to a frightening 93c. I have an appointment with a Mac Genius to verify before I continue with Applecare. Does anyone know if reapplying thermal paste voids your warranty? I'd rather do it myself than have one of them do it. If it does, can they do it or do I have to send it off? I know that if I sent it to Apple, it'll just come back with the same problem. They'll boot it up and say "hey, it works. pack it up." and I'll have wasted two weeks of my time.

If I *did* do it myself and never told Apple, would there be any telltale signs that I opened the macbook up? (assuming I followed iFixIt's instructions).

 

[poke4christ]

I ran Seti@Home via Boinko (is that what it's called) and maxed out my CPU usage. According to iStat, my MBP got to a frightening 93c. I have an appointment with a Mac Genius to verify before I continue with Applecare. Does anyone know if reapplying thermal paste voids your warranty? I'd rather do it myself than have one of them do it. If it does, can they do it or do I have to send it off? I know that if I sent it to Apple, it'll just come back with the same problem. They'll boot it up and say "hey, it works. pack it up." and I'll have wasted two weeks of my time.

If I *did* do it myself and never told Apple, would there be any telltale signs that I opened the macbook up? (assuming I followed iFixIt's instructions).

I don't know about your questions, but deffinitly keep us up to date on that. I want to know how apple is planning on/would handle all of this.

 

[JAG1960]

There is nothing wrong with those temps! Mine hits 90 but i'm not crying about it! the chips are designed to run upto 100C so its fine. if your that bothered get an iLap. Mine came today and it knocks 10C off my temps.

I think that you are missing the point. Yes, the silicon will work at higher temperatures and a technician can correctly say there is no problem after passing stress testing. But, as a consumer, I know a higher idle operating temperature is going to reduced the life of my laptop. I certainly do not want my MBP to fail at 3 years and 1 day.

However, I suspect that Apple is confident that at ~55C the failure rate due to heat will be negligible during warranty and will continue to remain low for at least 4 to 5 years. If that is true then there is no reason to reduce the temperature to 45C. I don't want to pay for a computer designed to last 10 years or more. I think that is a waste. But, if you want your MBP to last the longest amount of time then by all means replace the paste. Just don't expect Apple to do it unless you are a very squeaky wheel because they fix problems not potential problems 5 or more years down the road,

So, until someone can show me that a MBP will likely fail before it becomes obsolete or that the MBP can not pass stress testing, I will trust that the new die can handle idle temperatures in the 50C - 55C range. If not then Apple will have shot itself in the foot if it was under warranty - or in the head (at least for me) if it failed at 3 years and 1 day.

 

[UltraNEO*]

The heat issue isn't about whether the processor can handle the heat, there are other components in your system which are required will definitely live a shorter life. If they fail, then your logic board is gonna become faulty and your system... well it'll cease to function correctly.

i know the actual CPU can perform well right up to 110°C and then some, if the air temp is uncomfortably high. Compacitors for example will begin to pop around 100°C, from experience the north-bridge chip will become unstable causing various things to cease functioning, which will lead to system lags, slow-downs etc. And the nVidia's graphics chip... well it doesn't like heat much either, so maybe your video display will take a hit too?

Now if you think i'm taking it all a bit too far, have you seen how close all those bits are to one another? When the CPU heats up, it's also heating up the north-bridge and what ever else is in between. Think about it, it'll all make sense.

 

[GanleyBurger]

.

What about cooling pads? All of these accessory items to cool down laptops.

Do they work???

 

[filman408]

According to iStat, my MBP got to a frightening 93c. I have an appointment with a Mac Genius

Mine reaches 99C when under a full load (playing 2-3 looped 1080p QT trailers & with CPUTest). The full load temp does flux from 88-99 though, depending on fan speed. I just dont know what to do, take it to the genius' or not?
BTW, What is the success rate of that method? Do they fix it or say that this temp is within spec?

I have cracked open MBP's before, but never down to the logic board. That would scare me since I know nothing about it. Otherwise I might clean up the paste myself.

 

[iW00t]

eb3604, have you applied thermal paste before? Not trying to call you out or anything, just curious. Thing about the paste is it sounds more difficult than it is. You simply spread it on and let the pressure between the heatsink and the chip spread it out. As Animalk said, any designer who designs a gap needs to have his head examined because he doesn't know crap about computers. You need a VERY close connection to get as much heat transfer as possible. Without the heatsink, the processor would blowup in no time flat. If there was a gap, it would be because of bad assembly/part design.

Apple designers do not care about how it works, they care about how it looks! A heat pipe that is suspended in mid air is a work of air, a heat pipe that is in contact with the chip is for squares.

 

[miniConvert]

I think that you are missing the point. Yes, the silicon will work at higher temperatures and a technician can correctly say there is no problem after passing stress testing. But, as a consumer, I know a higher idle operating temperature is going to reduced the life of my laptop. I certainly do not want my MBP to fail at 3 years and 1 day.

However, I suspect that Apple is confident that at ~55C the failure rate due to heat will be negligible during warranty and will continue to remain low for at least 4 to 5 years. If that is true then there is no reason to reduce the temperature to 45C. I don't want to pay for a computer designed to last 10 years or more. I think that is a waste. But, if you want your MBP to last the longest amount of time then by all means replace the paste. Just don't expect Apple to do it unless you are a very squeaky wheel because they fix problems not potential problems 5 or more years down the road,

So, until someone can show me that a MBP will likely fail before it becomes obsolete or that the MBP can not pass stress testing, I will trust that the new die can handle idle temperatures in the 50C - 55C range. If not then Apple will have shot itself in the foot if it was under warranty - or in the head (at least for me) if it failed at 3 years and 1 day.

This is sort-of the approach I'm taking to all this. I have Applecare and, quite honestly, when it runs out in 3 years I'll probably be more than ready for a new laptop. If there's a potential problem, potential being the key word, and it rears its head within the next 3 years then Apple will just have to deal with it It's going to be their problem at the end of the day, providing I remember to take regular backups which everybody should do anyway.

My old Dell laptops used to get totally toasty. One of them eventually died, but it's only a HDD failure. The other is still going, after five gruelling years of burning my legs! Still, I'll be using this machine far more than I ever used either of those 4kg monsters, so we'll see.

 

[eenu]

I think that you are missing the point. Yes, the silicon will work at higher temperatures and a technician can correctly say there is no problem after passing stress testing. But, as a consumer, I know a higher idle operating temperature is going to reduced the life of my laptop. I certainly do not want my MBP to fail at 3 years and 1 day.

I'm not missing any point. I do this for a living.....its common myth that higher temps give an earlier lifespan (or it was at least semi true many years back).... a colleague of mine is conducting reasearch that shows that extreme high temps and lower temps give earlier failure rates.... that transposes to ~45C and below and 95-100 and above. Where there is an exponential increase after 95C

So, until someone can show me that a MBP will likely fail before it becomes obsolete or that the MBP can not pass stress testing, I will trust that the new die can handle idle temperatures in the 50C - 55C range. If not then Apple will have shot itself in the foot if it was under warranty - or in the head (at least for me) if it failed at 3 years and 1 day.

Only people that shoot themseleves in the foot are the people that believe everything they read on the internet. The internet is such a great tool until tools start theories/stories/pretend they know what their talking about and the sheep follow.

Moan moan moan..
Sorry your poor 900baud modem can't take the strain I posted those photos cause someone asked for details.

Actually i have a 100mb/sec connection..... i was thinking about other forum users somethig you appear to have neglected to do

 

[takagawa]

I've owned the 1st gen MBP and had the same heat issue with the overly enthusiastic application of thermal paste. I got that cleaned up by an Apple tech and re-applied to the normal amount (about 0.5mm layer on the die).

The result was little to no change in the heat underneath the Macbook Pro. Once you start doing anything processor intensive like playing games or using Parallels, the heat generated underneath goes up to a very uncomfortable level.

The over-application of thermal paste isn't the reason why MBP gets too hot. The reason is two things:
1. The metal enclosure is supposed to act as part of the heat dissipation mechanism, and
2. the cooling fan strategy the machine is using.

Apple has decided to try and keep the Macbook Pro's fan strategy as low rpm as possible to:
1. Keep it as quiet as possible, and
2. Reduce power draw to the fans.

What inevitably results is you get a nice quiet machine with good battery life, but temperatures too unbearable to use on your lap while playing games.

You can get around this by using smcfancontrol or any other fan control app out there where you can manipulate the fan strategy used. You for instance can set the minimum rpm for the fan so it keeps the underside always cool, but sacrificing battery life and increased noise.

In terms of this heat reducing the life of the components, I don't believe that's so. The heat generated I believe is within manufacturer tolerance. It's just that we can 'feel' the heat when we place our hand on the case we start to over-exaggerate how much its affecting the rest of the machine.

Addition: I'll just add one extra thing as I read through this thread. It's possible that the heat may be due to the thermal paste they use - although I doubt it.

 

[4np]

It's not apple that applied the thermal compound, it's Fujikura

I am actually beginning to think that it's not Apple that put too much thermal paste on the chips... I lookup up the Fujikura website to see if I could find any heatsinks (preferably the one used in the MBP but I think that's just custom made). I found a couple of heatsinks and, as I suspected, they come with the thermal paste already applied. I think that's also the case in the factory. Probably Apple just assembles the MBP's with a heatsink which already got the thermal paste applied.

See these photographs of other Fujikura laptop heatsinks:

 

[Dreamer2go]

Hello I am new to this forum.
I have been reading about the macrumors etc.

I just ordered a brand new 2.4ghz 15.4 inch Macbook Pro, and I'm waiting impatiently for the computer to arrive! This is also my first mac! So I guess I'm a "switcher!"
Nice to meet you all!

I've been reading this topic and the replies, and I'm really concerned. Does this thermal paste thing only applies to a certain amount of MBPs? Just like deadpixels, not all MBP users have dead pixels on their screen!

Thanks!