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How is NFC a game changer?
- Thread starter CAWjr
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NFC is not a great technology to use for the general reason that it has no specific purpose and is relegated to general purpose and even worse, unsecured data. People generally want convenience but they are afraid to incorporate connected technology to money and banking. Even with technologies such as dropbox, airdrop, passbook, QR, NFC, and touchkey, people are normally unwilling to put their money in something as fickle as technology.
I've been to a number of cities worldwide including high tech development cities and none of them use NFC. The closest would be the Octopus Card in Hong Kong used by the MTR. It runs on Sony's FeLiCa touchcard system (kind of like NFC) and is highly controlled by the company. In such case, 711s, subway stand vendors, and a lot of small goods dealers in Hong Kong can take Octopus card for payment. In Cybercity (I kid you not, that's what it's named because Microsoft moved into the complex), you can use the same Octopus card to enter into your apartment building and controls access to certain areas of the complex. The amount of money is limited on the card and while it's a cash substitute, it still limits how much can be stolen from you at one time.
I've been to a number of cities worldwide including high tech development cities and none of them use NFC. The closest would be the Octopus Card in Hong Kong used by the MTR. It runs on Sony's FeLiCa touchcard system (kind of like NFC) and is highly controlled by the company. In such case, 711s, subway stand vendors, and a lot of small goods dealers in Hong Kong can take Octopus card for payment. In Cybercity (I kid you not, that's what it's named because Microsoft moved into the complex), you can use the same Octopus card to enter into your apartment building and controls access to certain areas of the complex. The amount of money is limited on the card and while it's a cash substitute, it still limits how much can be stolen from you at one time.
Yet, in order to use the NFC system in a store, you'd still have have to use an app specific to the store. The difference here is pulling out your phone and touching it to something vs. pulling out your phone and having it scanned.
Source please? I've yet to see or hear of a single hotel using NFC in phones for hotel services (unless you're talking about RFID hotel keys which hotels have had for years before NFC even hit phones).
File-sharing with NFC is exactly identical to AirDrop. When you tap the two phones, you create a Bluetooth/Wi-Fi Direct connection between the two phones. AirDrop does literally the exact same thing, with the same protocol and connection technology, the difference is that one you access via a menu and the other with tapping phones. There's no extra security or extra setup between AirDrop and using NFC to establish a Wi-Fi Direct connection.
How many print items do you see with NFC tags? Now how many with QR codes.
I don't see how NFC solves this issue at all? If anything if the fingerprint scanner is given access to developers then you could use it to sign into websites, for example. I don't see how NFC accomplishes this at all.
The possibilities are there, but the alternatives are both much more logical and more practical.
Mobile NFC is pointless. Keep RFID to simple tags.
I've yet to be put into a situation where NFC on my phone would've provided convenience, and within the past 2 years I've been to Chicago, Orlando, Nashville, NYC, Chattanooga, Birmingham...
Same, except for different places. Those are Tampa, Orlando, St. Pete, Atlanta, Bryson City, Knoxville, Chattanooga, Gatlinburg, Cincinnati, Columbus, Mansfield, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, Lancaster, D.C., Richmond, Charlottesville, Raleigh, Greenville, and Beckley, WV.
So a lot of different cities. And I went through all of them without even seeing an NFC payment terminal. That's pretty sad.
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I Love NFC
NFC dead not sure about that. I gues it's how uou use it. I have a NFC sticker in my car, on my dock, and the door seal of my house. Do I need it probably not but it is handy to hold my phone next to the NFC tag and it do 10 or so functions in about 3 seconds. I know what I do with it is very basic but I use it daily, makes certain things in my life easier..in this day in age I will take that any day of the week. It could be better come..ON..APPLE!
NFC dead not sure about that. I gues it's how uou use it. I have a NFC sticker in my car, on my dock, and the door seal of my house. Do I need it probably not but it is handy to hold my phone next to the NFC tag and it do 10 or so functions in about 3 seconds. I know what I do with it is very basic but I use it daily, makes certain things in my life easier..in this day in age I will take that any day of the week. It could be better come..ON..APPLE!
NFC is used in a few places here in the UK. The biggest user being McDonalds but other places are picking it up too like supermarkets but the market here is likely being helped by the banks that are now issuing NFC enabled debit and credit cards.
The patent Apple filed for the FP scanner actually includes details of NFC embedded in there also so NFC could be a possibility for the 6 or 6s
The patent Apple filed for the FP scanner actually includes details of NFC embedded in there also so NFC could be a possibility for the 6 or 6s
It's not a game changer and it's barely used here in the US. You never hear the average consumer talk about the feature in the phones that actually have, much less use it. I've literally never had a customer choose to get a phone or not get one because of NFC. Most don't even know what it is or that it's even in the phones.
NFC probably needs Apple more than Apple needs it. Unless Apple decides to embrace it, the technology will probably never take off.
NFC probably needs Apple more than Apple needs it. Unless Apple decides to embrace it, the technology will probably never take off.
Hilton Hotel I see quite often (regular).
http://www.google.com/wallet/buy-online/index.html#popular-sites
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I'm really surprised a lot of you guys from the states don't see NFC (or some form of RFID that an NFC phone can interact with) more often.
Thinking of places local too me ~10 miles...
McDonalds
Lowes
CVS
Walgreens
Best Buy
Foot Locker
Old Navy
7-11
Wawa
Quiznos
Five Guys (burger place maybe local only)
Random Soda machines
Plenty of gas stations
And I'm sure I'm overlooking plenty of places. You guys have to be near one.
Here is a video I pulled off of YouTube. Put it on mute because the music is god awful
http://youtu.be/TQ2pSzpnY_g
Notice the date of that video. But yeah, no where to use it?
The different is the user experience. Think about the process and it becomes clear.
Here is one I'm sure you can find more.
Advertising to everyone nearby vs. touching to setup? Again, think of the process and then think about security.
I wonder how many horses came before cars... Silly argument
Think about the unifying theme here. There is an instance of a service. There is your identity. You need a mechanism to tell the instance of the service who you are.
This is what NFC is perfect for. Using the kiosk example using just a FP sensor how does you login to that kiosk? With NFC you would touch it and the connects the instance of the service to your identify.
Nothing you described is more logical or practical. NFC is a technology that like most needs hardware, software and services around it. It is designed to setup temporary transaction based systems between devices. It does it well.
I don't care about NFC. I expected apple to support LTE advance (future proof for the next two years). I was hoping for other things such as 32/64/128 GB storage (cost change for apple) a significantly better camera (not the slight upgrade in lens and dual LED), improved speakers, and USB 3.0 support.
I don't go in most of those places and I rarely go in gas stations—I usually just fill up outside. The last time I did see an NFC-based terminal was at a gas station though.
The next time I go to a Lowe's I'll pay more attention.
Come to think of it, they do have them in the drive through at McDonald's. I'll give you that one.
I honestly do wish it would take off more. It'd be much more convenient.
It becomes clear that the only difference in user experience is having to touch your phone to something vs. having a laser scan the screen. If you really like touching your phones to things, then sure, go ahead.
Fair enough, although I don't see how this is more beneficial.
You don't broadcast for everyone to see. You can make your device known to everyone around you if you choose to, or keep it to contacts only, and furthermore you don't have to accept the transfer, nor do you have to broadcast it to everyone, as you can pick the people you send it to. Much more easy than having to individually touch your phones. If you're worried about someone hacking into the connection or sending you a virus, well they can do that just as easily using NFC file sharing.
Except we're talking about an unpractical technology, not motor vehicles. Think of how many smartphones, dumb phones, iPods & PMPs, digital cameras, computers, webcams, etc. that have cameras and QR codes. Unless we put NFC into EVERY device, using it to replace QR codes is unpractical. Cars were practical because they were more efficient than cars. NFC is not more efficient than QR codes.[/QUOTE]
You need to be specific, mate. At what point have you ever gone to a kiosk that requires you to sign in via your phone? In fact I don't think I've ever seen a kiosk that requires me to sign into any kind of service...[/QUOTE]
Nothing YOU described is more logical or practical. NFC is nothing important for a mobile device. You can easily do everything you can with NFC on a phone in a more practical, universal way.
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As far as I know, the 5C and 5S support the LTE-A radio bands. I too would have liked a better speaker and USB 3.0 support (or at least a lighting thunderbolt or lightning 3.0 USB cable). As far as the camera goes, I can tell you that Megapixels is the least that's important. Things like the sensor and image processor are more important. Take the Lumia 1020. It's "41 Megapixels" but the image quality is generic smartphone quality, while the HTC One has only 4 Megapixels but takes some of the best looking photos I've seen. I'll have to use the camera on the 5S myself but I'm sure it's a much much much better improvement than you think, even if the MP count didn't go up.
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With the exception of Wawa (no idea what that is) I've been to each of those places within the last 6 months-Year and I have not seen any way to pay using NFC. We have credit cards that have RFID tags in them that you can use, but no place that supports NFC payments via Google Wallet.
Why do I want to open anything? Since there is a lack of imagination here I'll lead the way.
Picture the Apple equivalent to Google Wallet. Rather than opening up and up, bringing up the right screen and turning the screen to a scanner you double verify your FP, telling the phone you are paying for something. NFC touch and done. You never even turned on the screen...
THAT is a seamless user experience. That is Apple.
As someone that travels every at least a couple times a month I would love this. Walk into the Hyatt late at night. I've already checked in on the cab ride over, and I can go straight to my room... No waiting, no keys to lose, nothing else to stuff in my wallet.
Again, so you either broadcast to everyone or to explicitly setup with someone ahead of time. If I see 'Steve' for the first time in a while do I want to setup a connection to his phone to share contact info? Hell no.
Don't get me wrong, AirDrop is cool. It is great to share files with people you regularly interact with. It is not great to share files with people you don't because it requires setup or broadcast.
Proven and practical, just not in your eyes. Just like many people believes that cars were not proven or practical.
Again there are examples of systems that already support this but I'm more interested in the systems that don't support it.
I'll lead again... I'm waiting in line at the movie theater for snacks. Wouldn't it be cool to make the list on your phone while you wait and once you get to the register place your order and pay instantly? NFC enables this type of interaction because you can interact with that specific instance of the service (instead of other registers) and it knows instantly who you are, what you want, and that you have paid for it.
Your making the case that we don't need NFC because nothing supports NFC (which isn't accurate). NFC is an enabler for a more seamless interaction between systems. With just a little imagination I'm sure you can come up with a dozen systems you interact with every day that NFC would speed up or make more seamless.
I listened to an analyst yesterday all but say that NFC at this point is a complete flop or at minimum, very close to becoming that. It has been around for almost two years and still has not caught on with main stream consumers and there's no signs of it taking off anytime soon.
I genuinely wish MacRumors would create a separate NFC subforum where Americans can repetitively argue the merits of the tech and make flawed conclusions about Apple's reasons for avoiding it, whilst the rest of us in the developed world happily carry on implementing and using it in everyday life.
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Aside from spouting nonsense, did he also give you next week's lottery numbers as well?
All my credit cards have nfc on them... I doubt it's dying.... Its picking up but real slowly...
This system exists all over the United States with paper tickets and magnetic strips. NFC provides no additional value to this process. I can insert a paper ticket into the machine or I can insert a token... it's the same thing. We've been paying at separate machines here in Orlando for at least the last five years. I've also seen this implemented in Washington, DC, Buffalo, NY, Denver, CO.
This is not a good example. NFC for automation tasks - get home, put your phone on the counter and the lights come on, phone changes to "home" mode, etc. - is where we should be looking.
You actually made some good points here (BOLD), but also made some dubious points (UNDERLINED).
Good - The concept of NFC touch & pay is great. To be able to walk in somewhere & touch your locked & powered off phone to pay for something rather than unlocking it & getting to the bar code in Passbook saves me 20 seconds of my life that I can spend elsewhere.
Dubious - This has been documented repeatedly that the same convenience that allows you to pay for your McMuffin at McDonalds by just waving your phone is equally as convenient for someone walking through the subway with a device to imitate a retailer & grab your credit card number off your phone in your back pocket. It's high tech pickpocketing. This is where that one additional layer of verification (i.e. PIN or swipe or approval) isn't a bad thing & can save you from a world of headaches trying to fix your credit.
Good - The concept of checking into a hotel or a rental car agency without talking to a person & opening your room or starting a car with your phone is a fantastic concept. I could see this as a very viable use for NFC. Of course, most hotels & car rental companies already do this for their frequent users (i.e. Hertz Gold Club has your name on a board & the keys are already in the car or checking into a Marriott & your keys are waiting at the desk to grab & go without the hassle of taking your DL & CC info). They just are not using NFC to eliminate the keys.
Dubious - I have not played with the new AirDrop in iOS7 yet, but from what I have seen, if you are set up to openly share files with people, you automatically show up without having to verify, approve, etc. That is no different than NFC. Simply bumping someone's phone won't transfer files if they have NFC file sharing turned off. How is that any different than AirDrop?
Good/Dubious- The concept of ordering & paying in line is a great application, but why not take it a step further? Why can't I go straight to the theater, find my seat, pull up the concession menu (I guess I need to download an app for that), pick my items, and place my order? Then I could get an alert when my order is ready to pick up, and I can just walk to the concession stand & pick it up without even paying, because I already used my credit card to pay in the app. Instead of fumbling for my phone to waive & pay when I am carrying a large popcorn, 2 large sodas, nachos, and Junior Mints, it's all ready to go.
No offense, but you completely skirted his question. And I was interested in the answer. What kiosks have you had to log into?
There is no reason one needs NFC to do this exact same thing. All it requires is a way to select items and a way to identify payment infoin fact I think it already exists but I can't remember where. I'm pretty sure the Apple store does it.
In either case, it only requires a company to set up a system to handle that. And in the case of the iPhone, they just need a modern scanner which is far more ubiquitous than NFC payment systems, andI would imaginefar cheaper.
NFC is no more seamless than Passbook. And you don't have to find anything to pay on an iPhone. The place you're in pops up on the screen. So it requires one swipe. That's far more difficult I suppose than just touching your phone to something. /sarcasm
I had this exact same argument with a friend the other day, and there was nothing he could come up with that made NFC any more useful than even bluetooth.
No doubt, it's a cool technology, and maybe it could be use in more interesting ways. But the infrastructure isn't there. That's why your dreams of these connected systems will never become reality. Passbook is more likely to explode because it can piggyback on existing systems fairly easily and requires less investment to implement.
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Wawa is a ridiculously named gas station that apparently has decent sandwiches. They were in the North I believe but they've begun to migrate to Florida. And while I'm curious as to how their sandwiches tastepeople line up for them when they openI'm apathetic to bother because the name is so incredibly stupid that I don't feel they should get my money.
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I should note that I'd prefer either NFC or Passbook to achieve widespread adoption. I wasn't preferring one or the other. Passbook's low adoption pisses me off because of it's ease of implementation.
When I had an Xperia TL with NFC, I kept it off from the second I got it. If I had a use for it (which I saw none), I'd have to either leave NFC on all day in case I need to use it (and kill my battery) or toggle it on when I need to use it, which ruins the potential speed/convenience gain.
I see no practical use for it, and I think Apple feels the same way.
I see no practical use for it, and I think Apple feels the same way.
If you are seeing the PayPass logo (the RFID chip in the MasterCards) in these stores, this is where Google Wallet is compatible. It doesn't explicitly say "Google Wallet accepted"-- you just scan it like it were a credit card, and hit any prompts that may follow thereafter.
Here in the Bay Area, McDonalds, Jack in the Box, Jamba Juice, and Best Buy are just a few stores that accept PayPass, and therefore Google Wallet.
More and more retailers in the UK are having their debit card terminals ("chip and pin") upgraded to incorporate NFC "contactless" facility. The technology is not on its way, it's already here with its feet up on your sofa.
Apple are only holding back because:
a] they seemingly prefer slowly drip feeding features where possible;
b] the tech, unlike in Europe and Asia, is still mostly unadopted in the US (same as counterfeit-proof banknotes and chip/PIN verification on card transactions);
c] Apple would dearly love a piece of the pie, and are furiously trying to develop Passbook or its offspring so they can market it into global widespread use for mobile payments, almost certainly linked to iTunes accounts. What they don't want is an unholy trinity of banks, Visa/MC and mobile networks (offering Samsung hardware) cornering the market (as they are doing already running trials in Europe) and leaving them out in the cold.
Apple are only holding back because:
a] they seemingly prefer slowly drip feeding features where possible;
b] the tech, unlike in Europe and Asia, is still mostly unadopted in the US (same as counterfeit-proof banknotes and chip/PIN verification on card transactions);
c] Apple would dearly love a piece of the pie, and are furiously trying to develop Passbook or its offspring so they can market it into global widespread use for mobile payments, almost certainly linked to iTunes accounts. What they don't want is an unholy trinity of banks, Visa/MC and mobile networks (offering Samsung hardware) cornering the market (as they are doing already running trials in Europe) and leaving them out in the cold.
I didn't skirt it at all but if you are really interested in what kiosks I log into...
Airport checkin
Library book checkout
Hotel checkin
Movie theater tickets
Safeway self checkout or Home Depot (the two most common ones I interact with)
Bank ATMs
Security checkpoints (many customers I visit have checkin kiosks)
NYC subway pass when I visit well... NYC
My dry cleaner has a ticket scanning kiosk to bring your clothes to the front (I hate losing those things)
Garage parking
Redbox
Photo kiosk at Walgreens
Sprint kiosk in the movie theater (free popcorn, yum)
Gas pumps (yep, those are kiosks)
The damn kiosk at the Verizon store that I can never remember my password to... grrr
I've used the Apple Store app to buy things before. It's cool but awkward and I believe you are thinking about a unidimensional system instead of multi dimensional system.
In the case of the Apple Store app you walk in preselect your items, scan them and pay. It is a single system (the Apple payment system).
Now, think of it in terms of multiple instances of a system, an ATM for example. I want money. I not only need to identify myself to the bank and I need the bank to know which ATM to spit the money out of. NFC is capable of connecting those two things (my identity and the instance of the system I want to interact with) in a seamless way.
Now, Passbook can bring up the specific app based on a location. What does Passbook do when you are in a convenience store (which you may want to use an app to pay at) but it has an ATM inside. Which app does it bring up?
NFC is more fundamental than Passbook. NFC is a technology Passbook may leverage in the future. Understand the difference?
Again, apples and oranges (no pun intended). Why is it a question of BT vs. NFC. BT serves a different purpose today with a very different design. When I walk up to a kiosk or some system I want to interact with I don't want to 'pair' my phone to it. I want that setup to be natural. NFC enables this be ensuring the communication distance is so short that with a high degree of certainty setup can be implied.
BT may evolve to this with a different set of standards but the point is it's not something the iPhone supports today and there are endless use cases for it.
NFC is HUGE! Look at all these people using NFC on their smartphones!
http://pictures-of-people-using-nfc.tumblr.com/
http://pictures-of-people-using-nfc.tumblr.com/
I'm talking about worldwide availability. NFC is adopted in only a few countries. That's hundreds of millions smartphone users with no use for it.