How is NFC a game changer?

[Kurso]

Actually, I'm talking about semantics—which are important in this case. No one calls paying at a terminal logging in. What happens actually is irrelevant. That's the only issue I have with your statement in this regard.

And your example is flawed. Leaving a terminal that you CAN do something else at if you choose to is different than a transaction where there is no other possibility to do anything else.

I'm not saying no log in takes place. I'm simply saying that it is different than the contemporary concept of logging in, which is why no one calls it that. For example, no one logs into their phone with a passcode, they unlock it.

Ah semantics: There was a professor at MIT that once said to me:

"Semantics is the move of last resort in any debate".

But... if it makes you feel better "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is" ;-)

Why would you suggest technology advancing and then rip on someone for renting a Zipcar instead of going to Hertz. Hertz is archaic compared to Zipcar.

I wasn't attempting to "rip" him, I asked a question. But thanks, once again, for making my point.

Previously you stated something to the effect that 'the end result is the same'. In his case he got a rental car. Rental cars have been around for a century. Yet, here is Zipcar with a new an interesting way of getting you to the same result, renting a car.

The real question is, why are you against this progression of technology? Why are you so adamant, after admitting that NFC can be more convenient that the old ways are better?

 

[larmende]

Is NFC the same as credit and debits card use you can just swipe at the till at some shops, so you can (up to a certain limit) pay without pin?
My bank sent me a little phob to stick at the back of a phone but I shredded it. Considering that more phoned get stolen than wallets, I don't really want anybody to go shopping once they swipe my phoneout of my pocket.

But then, I don't even online shop with my phone. And I do work in e-commerce


It might be a generation thing. My dad just text and doesn't do online shopping at all, I use internet and apps, and the next generation might use NFC and other connectivity I haven't heard of.

 

[matttye]

Is NFC the same as credit and debits card use you can just swipe at the till at some shops, so you can (up to a certain limit) pay without pin?
My bank sent me a little phob to stick at the back of a phone but I shredded it. Considering that more phoned get stolen than wallets, I don't really want anybody to go shopping once they swipe my phoneout of my pocket.

But then, I don't even online shop with my phone. And I do work in e-commerce


It might be a generation thing. My dad just text and doesn't do online shopping at all, I use internet and apps, and the next generation might use NFC and other connectivity I haven't heard of.

Both technologies use RFID, but NFC implementations on smartphones tend to be more secure for a couple of reasons:

1) The NFC radio is switched off when the screen is off / phone is locked.
2) The NFC radio only transmits your card details when you're in an app and ready to make a payment.

Whereas with contactless cards, they can be read at any time.

 

[Kurso]

Both technologies use RFID, but NFC implementations on smartphones tend to be more secure for a couple of reasons:

1) The NFC radio is switched off when the screen is off / phone is locked.
2) The NFC radio only transmits your card details when you're in an app and ready to make a payment.

Whereas with contactless cards, they can be read at any time.

This is the reason I was surprised that NFC didn't come with the finger print sensor.

The possibility to have the FP authentication activate NFC, and the NFC device you are trying to interact with tell Passbook which app it needs it pretty compelling. The screen would never need to turn and the only interaction you'll need is the scan your finger. This would be the closest thing we have to whipping out your credit card and swiping it.

Very sexy. I want it!

I suspect that Apple wants to tread lightly here. Get people used to using the FP sensor first and then add NFC to it, possibly with an upgraded FP sensor in the next gen phone. I can't wait!!!

 

[matttye]

This is the reason I was surprised that NFC didn't come with the finger print sensor.

The possibility to have the FP authentication activate NFC, and the NFC device you are trying to interact with tell Passbook which app it needs it pretty compelling. The screen would never need to turn and the only interaction you'll need is the scan your finger. This would be the closest thing we have to whipping out your credit card and swiping it.

Very sexy. I want it!

I suspect that Apple wants to tread lightly here. Get people used to using the FP sensor first and then add NFC to it, possibly with an upgraded FP sensor in the next gen phone. I can't wait!!!

I'm not convinced Apple will ever implement NFC. They seem to prefer BLE (Bluetooth Low Energy).

BLE is a lot more flexible, as it works at various distances. BLE devices can still be made so they only work at 'immediate' ranges, but they can also work up to 50 metres away. Seems like a no brainer.

Only problem is, as I mentioned previously, BLE devices require a power source.

 

[zync]

Ah semantics: There was a professor at MIT that once said to me:

"Semantics is the move of last resort in any debate".

But... if it makes you feel better "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is" ;-)

That must've been a poor professor. Semiotics—which semantics is a branch of—is vital to our understanding of the world and how we interact with one another.

Moreover it's the difference between denotation and connotation, and that is important in any society with language. That's why people who have just learned a language may clearly still be obviously foreign.

Third, the last resort in any debate is an ad hominem attack—and you've made a few, and I've responded in kind.

I wasn't attempting to "rip" him, I asked a question. But thanks, once again, for making my point.

Previously you stated something to the effect that 'the end result is the same'. In his case he got a rental car. Rental cars have been around for a century. Yet, here is Zipcar with a new an interesting way of getting you to the same result, renting a car.

The real question is, why are you against this progression of technology? Why are you so adamant, after admitting that NFC can be more convenient that the old ways are better?

I'm not a luddite. Thanks. I didn't make your point. So please stop trying to infer alternate meanings from my words. I am for the advancement of tech and I think Passbook is more advanced because it also allows for things like geofencing.

I didn't admit that NFC can be more convenient—in fact I just said it wasn't to anyone with even a little dexterity. NFC, WiFi, and bluetooth are all built on RF technology. That's pretty damn old. At least geofencing in Passbook is newer technology (but not by much since it's based on GPS).

Why can't you admit that functionally, scanning a screen and tapping a phone on something is the same?



------------------------

Anyway, we're getting nowhere here. At this point, I don't care which it is. I'd rather something with more versatility become widespread—and it can't be argued that NFC is that thing, because it requires the interaction. But neither has a large adoption, despite what anyone claims.

I'm heading home. Enjoy your evening. Maybe I'll log on to get some gas.

 

[Kurso]

I'm not convinced Apple will ever implement NFC. They seem to prefer BLE (Bluetooth Low Energy).

BLE is a lot more flexible, as it works at various distances. BLE devices can still be made so they only work at 'immediate' ranges, but they can also work up to 50 metres away. Seems like a no brainer.

Only problem is, as I mentioned previously, BLE devices require a power source.

It's not the only problem. Not get get more people dragged into the silly debate of the thread but assume for a second you want to use a radio technology (and not scanning like the current Passbook fanboys around here) to get the job done.

The short range of NFC becomes it's advantage. As I described earlier in the thread, what if you want to pay at one of a dozen registers while getting snacks at a movie theater. All are in range of BLE, which one are you standing at? This is where NFC shines. The range is so short there is no ambiguity.

BLE is cool and it will get used (there are a lot of uses for it) but for the same reason we have satellite, terrestrial radio, cellular, wifi, and bluetooth we need NFC.

 

[matttye]

It's not the only problem. Not get get more people dragged into the silly debate of the thread but assume for a second you want to use a radio technology (and not scanning like the current Passbook fanboys around here) to get the job done.

The short range of NFC becomes it's advantage. As I described earlier in the thread, what if you want to pay at one of a dozen registers while getting snacks at a movie theater. All are in range of BLE, which one are you standing at? This is where NFC shines. The range is so short there is no ambiguity.

BLE is cool and it will get used (there are a lot of uses for it) but for the same reason we have satellite, terrestrial radio, cellular, wifi, and bluetooth we need NFC.

BLE devices can operate at various ranges; that's the beauty of it. Clearly any payment terminals will specify a short range to prevent devices from trying to communicate with multiple terminals at the same time.

Watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oa9gKFACFmg

 

[zync]

BLE is cool and it will get used (there are a lot of uses for it) but for the same reason we have satellite, terrestrial radio, cellular, wifi, and bluetooth we need NFC.

I assume I'm the passbook fanboy you're speaking of. Or the luddite. I welcome all new technologies as long as they don't fragment things. I have no issue with technologies with different ranges. My entire point, is that not having NFC isn't a game changer in my life.

To some Passbook is a pain or it's unsupported. I agree. I think both technologies need to expand. But I have no complaint that NFC is absent in what will be my next phone.

 

[Kurso]

That must've been a poor professor. Semiotics—which semantics is a branch of—is vital to our understanding of the world and how we interact with one another.

Moreover it's the difference between denotation and connotation, and that is important in any society with language. That's why people who have just learned a language may clearly still be obviously foreign.

Third, the last resort in any debate is an ad hominem attack—and you've made a few, and I've responded in kind.

Once again you missed the point (which was not about the professors undervaluing the concept of semantics. Where did you even get that?). And attacks are a way to distract from the debate, not used to further a point but it was a good try.

I'm not a luddite. Thanks. I didn't make your point. So please stop trying to infer alternate meanings from my words. I am for the advancement of tech and I think Passbook is more advanced because it also allows for things like geofencing.

I didn't admit that NFC can be more convenient—in fact I just said it wasn't to anyone with even a little dexterity. NFC, WiFi, and bluetooth are all built on RF technology. That's pretty damn old. At least geofencing in Passbook is newer technology (but not by much since it's based on GPS).

Why can't you admit that functionally, scanning a screen and tapping a phone on something is the same?

"...it's barely more convenient." is what you said which indicates it is more convenient by a small amount. Your words not mine.

Anyway, once again you are comparing Passbook to NFC. NFC does noting to prevent geofencing. They are NOT the same thing. Passbook can use NFC. Do you not understand the difference?

 

[Kurso]

BLE devices can operate at various ranges; that's the beauty of it. Clearly any payment terminals will specify a short range to prevent devices from trying to communicate with multiple terminals at the same time.

Watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oa9gKFACFmg

Your phone may be in range of multiple BLE devices even if some are shorter range and some are longer range. Then ambiguity becomes the problem. Which one am I trying to interact with?

Unless everyone universally agrees to limit BLE to the range of NFC then this quickly becomes a problem.

NFC solves this by making the range so short that there is no ambiguity. You are in range of one device. This is important for a lot of use cases. For example when you are at the movies standing in front of the register, many phones are blasting out BLE, the advertising system is probably hitting your phone with coupons via BLE, my earpiece may use BLE. Which one is my payment trying to authenticate with? I don't want my app advertising itself saying "I'm trying to hand out money". From a security standpoint that gets ugly real fast.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad the iPhone supports BLE. It's great for something like my Fitbit Flex. I would not want to tap that against my phone to have it sync. But I want NFC as well, specifically because it is VERY short range only.

 

[zync]

Once again you missed the point (which was not about the professors undervaluing the concept of semantics. Where did you even get that?). And attacks are a way to distract from the debate, not used to further a point but it was a good try.

Yes, funny how attacks distract from debate. And the point by your professor was that semantics exist where there is no argument.

"...it's barely more convenient." is what you said which indicates it is more convenient by a small amount. Your words not mine.

It is so infinitesimally more convenient that I don't really consider it more convenient. It's the difference between a movement of my thumb. I've moved my thumb more in this inconvenient conversation than I ever will with Passbook, even if it was accepted everywhere for every thing.

So please allow me to recant that statement. I don't actually consider that an inconvenience. And actually it makes sure my transaction is secure and intended.

Anyway, once again you are comparing Passbook to NFC. NFC does noting to prevent geofencing. They are NOT the same thing. Passbook can use NFC. Do you not understand the difference?

I'm not an idiot, so you being condescending is pretty pointless.

Yes, Passbook CAN use NFC or geofencing. NFC is only a core technology, which is the entire point I'm making. It is not as capable as using Passbook and the technology is more difficult to implement because it requires client-side and server-side changes. Passbook may only require server side changes because the hardware (optical scanners) are already in many places.

Even passbook itself isn't required for any of this. The Starbucks app, for instance, allowed people to do the same thing for a long time before Apple even released Passbook.

Passbook is simply an iOS service that combines RF technology and GPS technology in order to do a multitude of things, but mainly authentication. It heavily leverages geofencing in order to do so.

NFC handles very short range RF authentication and that's it. Which is why I said I have no specific need for NFC because Passbook's ability to display something to scan at a terminal is functionally equivalent.

----------

I should also note that in the video that was linked in this thread, the person always had their phone unlocked or unlocked their phone prior to paying. Which is the same as Passbook requires.

I'm not sure if that's just required of his phone or not, but that would make it the same "difficulty."

 

[matttye]

Your phone may be in range of multiple BLE devices even if some are shorter range and some are longer range. Then ambiguity becomes the problem. Which one am I trying to interact with?

Unless everyone universally agrees to limit BLE to the range of NFC then this quickly becomes a problem.

NFC solves this by making the range so short that there is no ambiguity. You are in range of one device. This is important for a lot of use cases. For example when you are at the movies standing in front of the register, many phones are blasting out BLE, the advertising system is probably hitting your phone with coupons via BLE, my earpiece may use BLE. Which one is my payment trying to authenticate with? I don't want my app advertising itself saying "I'm trying to hand out money". From a security standpoint that gets ugly real fast.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad the iPhone supports BLE. It's great for something like my Fitbit Flex. I would not want to tap that against my phone to have it sync. But I want NFC as well, specifically because it is VERY short range only.

The other registers wouldn't necessarily all be listening over BLE for a connection though, would they? I'm sure anywhere that implemented such systems would think about the potential issues and work through it one way or another. They won't just allow such a mishmash whereby you don't have any idea which terminal you're paying at or what you're paying for... that would be absurd

Paypal has brought out a device called "Beacon" which supports BLE payments, and apparently all you need to do is plug it in in a store and it works fine.

From what I've read BLE is highly secure against man in the middle attacks, so even if you are a fair distance away from the payment terminal it shouldn't be intercept-able.

 

[Xenomorph]

My Galaxy S 2 has NFC. I have no idea what to use it for.
Payments? Where?

I've used Passbook on my iPhone 4S several times already. That doesn't use NFC or iBeacon, but it's something I've actually used. The lady at a cash register just scanned my screen.

I'm *really* looking forward to Touch ID and Passbook.

 

[zync]

Honestly, my major issue is that if Passbook becomes widely adopted, pretty much anything can use it without requiring an additional hardware technology to exist on phones. Optical scanners are platform agnostic. And you can make your own, just like with NFC. You could even just store an image on an old phone.

 

[matttye]

My Galaxy S 2 has NFC. I have no idea what to use it for.
Payments? Where?

I've used Passbook on my iPhone 4S several times already. That doesn't use NFC or iBeacon, but it's something I've actually used. The lady at a cash register just scanned my screen.

I'm *really* looking forward to Touch ID and Passbook.

NFC isn't just for payments. When I had a Galaxy S3, I bought a bunch of NFC tags and stuck them at my work, in my car, around my house etc., then used them to perform tasks on my phone.

 

[Kurso]

I should also note that in the video that was linked in this thread, the person always had their phone unlocked or unlocked their phone prior to paying. Which is the same as Passbook requires.

I'm not sure if that's just required of his phone or not, but that would make it the same "difficulty."

But this is the beauty of NFC. For a lot of use cases you won't need to. You have to now because the geofencing doesn't have the granularity needed to disambiguate the instance of service you are trying to interact with. THIS cash register, not the one next to me. As you said before, both Passbook apps will pop up when geofencing overlaps. Think about this tomorrow, you are standing in the food court in the mall, five apps pop up.....

If I had a secret gesture (which Apple loves) such as tapping the conductive ring twice and then authenticating my fingerprint, thats the signal for Passbook to query the NFC scanner I'm tapping for the app it needs and authenticate the transaction.

You have to admit that this is elegant, fast, secure and just damn cool.

 

[zync]

But this is the beauty of NFC. For a lot of use cases you won't need to. You have to now because the geofencing doesn't have the granularity needed to disambiguate the instance of service you are trying to interact with. THIS cash register, not the one next to me. As you said before, both Passbook apps will pop up when geofencing overlaps. Think about this tomorrow, you are standing in the food court in the mall, five apps pop up.....

If I had a secret gesture (which Apple loves) such as tapping the conductive ring twice and then authenticating my fingerprint, thats the signal for Passbook to query the NFC scanner I'm tapping for the app it needs and authenticate the transaction.

You have to admit that this is elegant, fast, secure and just damn cool.

So at this point, it is actually exactly the same? We're arguing about the future of a technology?

It would be cooler if they could find a way for me to do it with it just in my pocket. Security goes out the window at that point.

 

[Kurso]

NFC isn't just for payments. When I had a Galaxy S3, I bought a bunch of NFC tags and stuck them at my work, in my car, around my house etc., then used them to perform tasks on my phone.

One of the items I want to use NFC for it playing music in my backyard. I relax out there almost every night. I have a headless Apple TV hooked up to my stereo system, which has speakers pipped to my patio. I use the Remote app to star my music on the Apple TV but I really just want to drop my phone on the table next to my poolside chair and have the music start automatically.

 

[zync]

One of the items I want to use NFC for it playing music in my backyard. I relax out there almost every night. I have a headless Apple TV hooked up to my stereo system, which has speakers pipped to my patio. I use the Remote app to star my music on the Apple TV but I really just want to drop my phone on the table next to my poolside chair and have the music start automatically.

You know, you've finally found a use case that interests me. It still could be accomplished with geofencing, but it's not accurate enough. Now you're on to something. And it is annoying to have to select something. Congrats.

It doesn't exist as a thing yet, but that would be a good use of NFC. You'd have to have some sort of scanner on the table though.

 

[matttye]

One of the items I want to use NFC for it playing music in my backyard. I relax out there almost every night. I have a headless Apple TV hooked up to my stereo system, which has speakers pipped to my patio. I use the Remote app to star my music on the Apple TV but I really just want to drop my phone on the table next to my poolside chair and have the music start automatically.

Well that's definitely something better suited to ble! You could drop your phone anywhere on the table with ble, whereas you'll have to drop it on a specific sticker and more than likely also have to turn the screen on and unlock the device with NFC.

 

[zync]

Well that's definitely something better suited to ble! You could drop your phone anywhere on the table with ble, whereas you'll have to drop it on a specific sticker and more than likely also have to turn the screen on and unlock the device with NFC.

True. But even a range of ten feet might catch you inside the house instead and playing music outside.

 

[Kurso]

So at this point, it is actually exactly the same? We're arguing about the future of a technology?

It would be cooler if they could find a way for me to do it with it just in my pocket. Security goes out the window at that point.

In some use cases it makes sense. The Apple store app for example. I already have the stuff I want to buy in hand and I don't want to go to some register to bump my phone, although bumping against the boxes to add them to my cart would be cool. ;-) Therefor I need a longer range technology, but it's because I'm interacting with a single well know instance, the Apple app and a single payment system.

Other use cases... ambiguity comes into play. 'No, I don't want to try and unlock every hotel door because they are all in BLE or Wi-Fi range, I want to open THIS door I'm standing in front of'. Tap... Click, Room service.

 

[matttye]

True. But even a range of ten feet might catch you inside the house instead and playing music outside.

Like I say, these iBeacons can work at various ranges, so for something like that you'd probably want to purchase one that works from about a foot away at the most.

 

[Kurso]

True. But even a range of ten feet might catch you inside the house instead and playing music outside.

Yep, exactly why I want NFC. Please iPhone 6!!!! I'm begging you.