HomeKit How to exclude an always home iPad for a location based automation?

[Mrfatboy]

My HomeKit setup consists of :

ATV 4 - Hub

iPad - Non Hub. Always home. Part of family

2 iphones

I would like to configure a location based automation that only triggers when the two iPhones are away from home. How can I exclude the iPad to be considered in the automation. It’s always home.

I can only think of turning off location sharing on the iPad. Is there another way?

 

[Puonti]

It sounds like you're creating a Home Automation, since Personal Automations are device-specific and can't, to my knowledge, check the location of other devices.

The two iPhones need to be using different Apple IDs, configured as the devices to determine the location for those Apple IDs, and both Apple IDs need to be part of the same family under Family Sharing. Then you should be able to create this Home Automation:

When: People Leave (The Last Person Leaves)
Location: Home
Time: Any
(actions)

 

[Mrfatboy]

All 3 devices (2 iphones &!pad) have separate apple ID’s. The iPad is always home as it is mounted to the wall.

I am using a Home automation. However, the location options are limited. See photo.

I had originally set it to “nobody is home” for the 2 iphones but forgot about the iPad being always home. The automation will never trigger.

There is no setting when just iphones are not at home.

 

[Puonti]

Which device are you trying to create the Home Automation on, and what version of its operating system is it using? Both my iPhone and iPad offer more granular options when creating a Home Automation in the Shortcuts app (iOS / iPadOS 14.6)

 

[Mrfatboy]

All devices are on 14.2. I have been hesitant to upgrade due to people complaining about battery issues. Hopefully 14.7 will fix that.

can you post a picture of the new options available in iOS 14.6 or 14.7?

 

[Puonti]

This is what the dialog looks like in iPadOS 14.6 (lightly edited for privacy). You can uncheck family members that are not considered part of the rule.

 

[waw74]

The two iPhones need to be using different Apple IDs, configured as the devices to determine the location for those Apple IDs, and both Apple IDs need to be part of the same family under Family Sharing. Then you should be able to create this Home Automation:

they've got all that, but you've missed a major point that they've mentioned twice.
There's a third device, the iPad used as a home hub, on it's own account.

That iPad is "always home". So the "when last person leaves" or "when no-one is home" automations never trigger, because even if "person 1 with iPhone" and "person 2 with iPhone" both leave the house, "Person 3 with iPad" is still at home.

they don't have to be part of the same family, you just have to share the home with them, and enable access when away from the house, so automations can run when they leave



---

Have you tried turning off location services on the iPad? (main settings app -> privacy)
not sure if that will help


I believe for homekit purposes apple intends for the iPad and your iPhone to be on the same account, so if turning off location services doesn't help, you've got 2 options

1 - sign the iPad into one of your accounts, but you can restrict other apps and messages if you want to for privacy, it might be fairly easy to re-enable, do depending on how well you trust the other people in your house, that might not be a good solution. You could also find some way to physically lock the iPad in a drawer or box, while still being plugged in.

2 - get another home hub, either a HP mini, or appleTV.
the mini at $99 is your cheapest option, and with homekit, having a device where you can just yell at siri instead of picking up one of your other devices comes in handy. they occasionally go on sale for a bit less, or you can also find refurb units.
with the appleTV, you do need a TV to setup, there are refurb units for a bit less if money is a problem

 

[Puonti]

they've got all that, but you've missed a major point that they've mentioned twice.
There's a third device, the iPad used as a home hub, on it's own account.

That iPad is "always home". So the "when last person leaves" or "when no-one is home" automations never trigger, because even if "person 1 with iPhone" and "person 2 with iPhone" both leave the house, "Person 3 with iPad" is still at home.

No, that detail was not missed. Please read all messages:

This is what the dialog looks like in iPadOS 14.6 (lightly edited for privacy). You can uncheck family members that are not considered part of the rule.

...and it was mentioned that the iPhones and iPad use different Apple IDs, so unchecking the iPad's Apple ID will mean that the iPad is ignored for the purposes of checking if everyone has left home.

 

[Mrfatboy]

I did some more investigation this morning. It turns out iOS 14.2 DOES have the extra granulation of settings for when people leave as Puonti stated.

However, i accidentally left something out. I want to have a trigger at a specific time of day AND when only both iPhones are not at home(excluding iPad). With that time automation, the extra “when people leave” granulation does not exist in the settings. See my picture above.

Last night I came up with the same possible solution as waw74 and will be testing today and report back.

Here is what I’m a trying to accomplish.

- I have several lights to come on at sunset.
- I want the lights to turn off at 10:00pm every night if both iPhones (not iPad) are not at home.

 

[Puonti]

That does change the equation in a non-trivial way. My experience has been that Shortcuts Automations aren't great for "if this and that, then something". I'm not a Shortcuts wizard so someone might have a more elegant solution, but a hacky way to do it might be:

Create automations for when everyone (except iPad) leaves and when someone (except iPad) arrives.

When everyone leaves, create a file on iCloud, or a family Calendar / Reminder entry. When someone arrives, delete the file / entry.

Create an automation that triggers at 10pm every night. Have it check if the file / entry exists; if it does, turn off lights.

...

Turning Location Sharing on the iPad off might be easier.

If these are Signify Hue lights you could also investigate their own app or one of the more advanced third-party Hue apps such as iConnectHue to see if they might allow you to achieve the desired automation. More advanced third-party Home Kit apps might also be a solution (for example Home+).

 

[Itinj24]

I had a wall mounted iPad being used as a HomeKit display and ran into the same issues without realizing what was causing it. If the iPad is staying home and no fear of losing it, Just turn off Find My and location services for the Home app and you should be good to go.

 

[Mrfatboy]

I just conducted several experiments. Everything works as it should when one iPhone leaves the house.

However, the automation fails if I set “nobody is home” (except iPad). The iPad has both “share my location” and the individual Location setting turned off under privacy->location services.

I don’t know what else to try. I don’t want to get into any crazy hacks.

if I remove the iPad from the family I would loose HomeKit control ability in the kitchen which I need.

I’m not sure if it matters but I didn’t reboot the iPad after I turned off both location services. Maybe a location bug?

I guess Apple missed another detail😖😖😖

 

[Itinj24]

I just conducted several experiments. Everything works as it should when one iPhone leaves the house.

However, the automation fails if I set “nobody is home” (except iPad). The iPad has both “share my location” and the individual Location setting turned off under privacy->location services.

I don’t know what else to try. I don’t want to get into any crazy hacks.

if I remove the iPad from the family I would loose HomeKit control ability in the kitchen which I need.

I’m not sure if it matters but I didn’t reboot the iPad after I turned off both location services. Maybe a location bug?

I guess Apple missed another detail😖😖😖

Give it some time. Like a few hours. Sometimes these things have to catch up with the server. I noticed that even when one of my Home Hubs switches, I get all kinds of automations not firing and notifications pushing when they aren’t supposed to. It’s annoying indeed but it eventually catches up.
I can assure you this worked for me (about a year ago until I moved). Reboot won’t hurt either.

 

[Mrfatboy]

I waited 24 hours and it still did not trigger.

The iPad had “share my location” off as well Privacy>Location Services>Home turned off.

My wife’s iPhone was at her work however my iPhone was home but the above settings were turned off also. I wanted to be away from home also for the test but couldn’t make it happen.

Is that a valid test or does HomeKit remember the last location of the phone after I turn it off?

I can try a better test tomorrow.

 

[Itinj24]

I waited 24 hours and it still did not trigger.

The iPad had “share my location” off as well Privacy>Location Services>Home turned off.

My wife’s iPhone was at her work however my iPhone was home but the above settings were turned off also. I wanted to be away from home also for the test but couldn’t make it happen.

Is that a valid test or does HomeKit remember the last location of the phone after I turn it off?

I can try a better test tomorrow.

It may remember the last known location as part of the Find My Network. Did you also turn off WiFi during the test?

Also, did you do the reboot?

 

[Mrfatboy]

I had wifi off on my iPhone. I rebooted the iPad yesterday after I turned off the shared location settings.

do I need to turn off the HomeKit setting in System Services also? I left that on both iPhone and iPad.

 

[Itinj24]

I had wifi off on my iPhone. I rebooted the iPad yesterday after I turned off the shared location settings.

do I need to turn off the HomeKit setting in System Services also? I left that on both iPhone and iPad.

Ya know, I think there were three location based setting that had to be disabled now that you mention it. Try disabling on the iPad only and see what happens. If not you can always turn it back on. Trying to remember if that was the third setting…

 

[Mrfatboy]

I turned off all location settings including the one in the system services section.

I was able to leave the house to a known location that works with other automations.

the automation with time of day AND NOBODY HOME setting still dots not work. 😖

 

[Itinj24]

Try Taking the iPad with you and see what happens. Maybe it’s the automation. Just to rule out anything else.

 

[Mrfatboy]

Nope. That didn’t work either.

could it be something to do with the Apple TV (my hub)?

 

[Itinj24]

Nope. That didn’t work either.

could it be something to do with the Apple TV (my hub)?

So you’re saying removing the iPad from the house did NOT fire the automation?

If other automations are working, doubtful it’s the hub. Sounds like something interfering with the automation. Trigger or Condition wise. Can you post screen shots of the automation?

 

[Mrfatboy]

Correct. All devices were out of the house. Except atv hub.

 

[Mrfatboy]

I do have a Homebridge setup with a pc. But I would be surprised if that had anything to do with it. 🤷‍♂️

 

[Itinj24]

I do have a Homebridge setup with a pc. But I would be surprised if that had anything to do with it. 🤷‍♂️

Are you using any other third party apps for automations and what devices are involved in this particular automation? It’s obviously not the iPad that’s causing this issue so we have to dig a little deeper.

 

[Mrfatboy]

I just did two more tests.

First, I removed the iPad from the HomeKit. Only the two iPhones are members. I left the house with both iPhones and the Automation worked👍 So the problem is definitely related to the iPad.

Second, I added the iPad back into HomeKit. I turned off all location settings:

Find my location
Share my location
Privacy>system services>home
Privacy>Home>never
Turned on airplane mode

BTW this is a WiFi only iPad.

I left the house with all devices. The automation did NOT work😖

Somehow HomeKit thinks the iPad is always home.

I am not using any other 3rd party apps for automations.

Any other suggestions?