i would love an iphone.... I live in Scarborough and have checked out the phones in the shop and browsed 'off WIFI' and it is slow going (i assume GPRS - you get a blue square)..... clearly its is very expensive (I'm not saying its not worth it). But if I am spending £35 a month I would have to have access to EDGE. As far as I can tell there is no way to tell when it might come.....
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How well is iPhone selling in the UK
- Thread starter Philsy
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Apple aiming to grab 150% of TOTAL market in 1st year!
Their reluctance to sell the product without the stupid restrictions means that in the few markets they do sell their gonna have to sell much more than 1% of the market to achieve their global goals.
I was talking to the retail manager of our leading telecom company in Jersey and got to talk about the iPhone. He was saying they'd hoped to sell the iPhone, but Apple demanded (on top of the cut of revenue) that they sell at least 10,000 units per month. Trouble is Jersey has a population of around 85,000 people, man, woman and child. So Apple expect to make more than one sale to every person every year. They probably would get a local market share of 10%+ if they sold it here, but instead they'll achieve a massive 0%
Their reluctance to sell the product without the stupid restrictions means that in the few markets they do sell their gonna have to sell much more than 1% of the market to achieve their global goals.
iPhone
I think one factor people are overlooking is that a lot of people have a contract with their network in the UK. It would be interesting to see iPhone sales a year from now when most people's contract might have expired by then and see if they opt for the iPhone. I am one of these people as I would love one, but have to wait until September for my contract to expire.
Also, I have yet to see one person use the functions of 3G in the UK.
I think one factor people are overlooking is that a lot of people have a contract with their network in the UK. It would be interesting to see iPhone sales a year from now when most people's contract might have expired by then and see if they opt for the iPhone. I am one of these people as I would love one, but have to wait until September for my contract to expire.
Also, I have yet to see one person use the functions of 3G in the UK.
In the eyes of Apple:
You can't say that the iPhone has failed for a very, very long time since in the UK they can do SO much, not necessarily with the iPhone in its current form, but the iPhone brand.
Ways that Apple can increase sales several times over are...
Allow choice in the contract (for example less texts/more minutes, no Cloud WiFi etc.) options
Bring down the price of the iPhone
And probably the best bet of all, tap the currently untapped market: kids! I can't imagine any parent paying £279 for an iPhone and then taking up a contract for them as well. If they released an iPhone Mini/Nano/Yocto for about £150, SIM Free, that wasn't even touch screen they'd probably sell an amazing amount. iPods sell A LOT, but more specifically it's iPod Mini's/Nano's that sell the greatest amount.
In the eyes of someone that wants an iPhone:
It's expensive. There's no faulting that it's an amazing looking device, but the price is certainly not its best aspect. A 16GB iPod Touch and an O2 Contract with a FREE Nokia N95 + 8Gb Memory Card costs exactly the same in the 18months...actually I only just looked that up and reading it back makes the iPhone sound even worse
You can't say that the iPhone has failed for a very, very long time since in the UK they can do SO much, not necessarily with the iPhone in its current form, but the iPhone brand.
Ways that Apple can increase sales several times over are...
Allow choice in the contract (for example less texts/more minutes, no Cloud WiFi etc.) options
Bring down the price of the iPhone
And probably the best bet of all, tap the currently untapped market: kids! I can't imagine any parent paying £279 for an iPhone and then taking up a contract for them as well. If they released an iPhone Mini/Nano/Yocto for about £150, SIM Free, that wasn't even touch screen they'd probably sell an amazing amount. iPods sell A LOT, but more specifically it's iPod Mini's/Nano's that sell the greatest amount.
In the eyes of someone that wants an iPhone:
It's expensive. There's no faulting that it's an amazing looking device, but the price is certainly not its best aspect. A 16GB iPod Touch and an O2 Contract with a FREE Nokia N95 + 8Gb Memory Card costs exactly the same in the 18months...actually I only just looked that up and reading it back makes the iPhone sound even worse
Again, I just can't believe "anecdotal" evidence like this.
Am I really supposed to believe that Apple is stupid enough to demand sales in less than a year that are larger than the population of a certain territory? Really?
1. Where did I say I was more qualified?
2. What insight did I claim to have? If you read my post, you would clearly see that I stated that all we had is the 1% target as a gauge to judge whether the iPhone is a failure or not.
Great. So according to this we have two types of user in the UK. Students and business users. By "business user" most people are talking about those who require a Windows Mobile or Blackberry device for corporate purposes. This is a very small minority in this country.
What about those with good jobs who do not need mobile access to an exchange network? i.e. the majority of people out there. Judging by average spend per age/income group, this would represent the biggest market for Apple.
How is the tariff ridiculous? When you factor in Cloud access and unlimited data, it is not cheap, but far from ridiculous.
Sure its feasible. But where did I say otherwise? My point is that people are quick to speculate that Apple has got it all wrong. In my original post I simply ask what makes us, lowly forum posters, better positioned to assess "how well is iPhone selling in the UK" than Apple themselves? Every post I was responding to was speculation based on their own ideas of what constitutes success, and guesswork as to numbers.
Again, what's with this "businesses" nonsense? Are you telling me that standard issue Blackberrys at enterprises are 3G? You might want to check those "facts".
Which is precisely my entire point. All we have to benchmark against is Apple wanting 10m/1% in 2008. Seeing as (a) 2008 is not here yet (b) we do not know the rate that they are selling in Europe and (c) we do not know what Apples EU market goals are, to assess whether iPhone is doing well or not in the UK right now is silly without any cold, hard data.
Sure, people can argue whether lowering the price and tariffs will increase sales, but only Apple would know whether that would equate to great profit. The jist of my post is that Apple know their margins inside out, and O2/CPW should know price sensitivity to handsets and usage of features (see that report this week about jus 1.8% of O2 users exceed 25MB of data per month compared to 60% of iPhone users - so much for 3G). So to sum up, Apple and O2 knows this market far better than we do.
I don't think it's that they're so stupid to think that's achievable market share, I think it's that because of the restriction they're imposing by only allowing certain networks to sell the phone and demanding a share of usage income any territory that can't support 10,000 units a month is of no interest to them.
While good business, maybe, I think it shows a contempt for the consumer without any good reason.
the silence is telling. these companies involved have been very quick to announce any number that they consider positive for their stock price. if the news are "bad" they are only told when they're required to.
case in point: the us launch of iphone, analysts went crazy over how well the phone sold during the first weekend, 500k, 600k, i think some analyst even claimed 700k and the stock price kept on raising. if iphone had really sold at that pace, apple would have confirmed the numbers. based on this, the announcement of 1m iphones sold was expected "any day now" for almost three months. instead apple told the number when it announced its result for the quarter. the latest possible.
all the companies have been very quiet after they announced the sales of the first few hours or few days, and even those numbers were not very strong (compared to the us launch).
at this point, it's pretty safe to say that the sales have not been phenomenal. the 5m iphones sold is plain stupid.
1. Apple very rarely comment on speculation. They very rarely make sales announcements outside of the quarterly earnings call. Only for big milestones do they do so (1bn iTunes tracks, 2m Leopard copies, 1m iPhones). Given
2. Why are you bringing Analysts into this? They are as clueless as us on the board. They overstated the US launch to absolutely ridiculous proportions, but facts remain that it was the fastest selling phone in AT&T history. O2 said the same thing. That's all we have to go on. And if that is true, how can the iPhone be anything other than a good launch in the UK? Especially as it is one of the most expensive phones on the market.
Again, I am not saying for sure that the iPhone is selling well or poorly in the UK. The entire point is nobody knows. Apple do not have the figures reported to GfK like all the other mobile manufacturers. I just question those who figure that because it isn't selling in RAZR numbers, its some kind of flop.
As for the 5m, I don't believe that either, but we shall see soon. I reckon about 3m by Macworld (2.5m in the US, 500k in Europe)
Not doing too badly over here, apparently:
http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2007/...with-jobs-tells-him-iphone-sales-are-on-trac/
http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2007/...with-jobs-tells-him-iphone-sales-are-on-trac/
Depends on where your aiming. I think, considering the price of the iPhone, it's missing out on a pretty standard feature, for that price point.
If they got rid of the fact that you HAD to have an 18 month contract with o2 (as to whom I'm not even with) I would definitely buy one. I think in all honestly they've cut off their nose to spite their face by forcing people to take out a lengthy contract.
I would buy an unlocked one but they're so expensive here and I darent unlock it myself to be honest. That and the fact that once new firmware becomes available and I upgrade it would lock the phone again anyway.
I bet these have already been mentioned anyway
I would buy an unlocked one but they're so expensive here and I darent unlock it myself to be honest. That and the fact that once new firmware becomes available and I upgrade it would lock the phone again anyway.
I bet these have already been mentioned anyway
exactly my point. if there was significant amount of iphones sold in europe and the milestones were met apple would have made a sales announcement.
as for the best selling launch in o2's history: o2 being minor operator that doesn't really tell anything. the information that apparently less then 10000 iphone subscriptions were made during the first weekend gives you an idea of how small a deal it really was. and the launch and immediate days after it are supposed to be the very peak of the sales.
in comparison, about 5000 of nokia n95s have been sold in the uk after its launch every day, which is for over half year, not only during the immediate days after its launch.
It's not just Apple that is not giving out sales numbers --- it's all the European carriers that are selling the iphones. O2 saying that they sold "tens of thousands" of iphones --- means absolutely nothing.
Well if the iphone is going to be marketed as a smartphone guess I would logically have it compete with the other major smartphone manufacturers. Blackberry and windows mobile are firmly entrenched in that arena based on 3rd quarter numbers from RIM. They have access to corporate email and are secure.
No not just students, Apple is really appealing to a casual user or professional who doesnt need instant email. I doubt there are many white collar professionals that dont find email time sensitive (look at the email intervals) or need access to their corporate email. Dont see labor intensive people buying a delicate fashion phone either.
Well I guess that is subjective. If you are enamored by the phone, you will say its worth it. But the tariffs compared to other plans foreign providers offer seem exhorbitant. Especially, when they have caps on data usage.
My company and many others issue blackberries that operate on sprint and Verizon EVDO network. That is 3G last I checked. Also these phones dont market their internet and Youtube which is monumentally handicapped when not near wi-fi. I was a former ATT customer in DC and have experienced the difference in performance.
Ironically, if someone says iphones are selling really well in Europe, you wouldnt have jumped down the posters throat.
That statistic you quoted doesnt say anything about 3Gs efficacy and you are attempting to disregard other variables. Marketing has built expectations, some unfair, in consumers minds about what features to expect at a pricepoint. Data usage doesnt change that, sales figures will dictate it. If EDGE was sufficient like you say, why will Vodaphone and the Asia region be getting a 3G iphone?
You well know that if a corporation like O/2 sees AT&T's success they will quickly try to replicate that approach to achieve similar success. It is visible with entertainment, electronics and the mobile industry. I am simply saying that in a more competitive environment with completely different variables, the present model will have to overcome encumbrances absent in the US market.
My, but there's a bit too much vitriol going on here. This thread has the atmosphere of a bar room discussion if a football match, or better yet a controversial court case. We none of us know any facts about UK sales yet. And in the absense of facts all we have is opinion.
I must say of all the opinions expressed here, I find a lot if sense in Project's views, though he expressed them, maybe too confontationally.
Of course I realize I'm typing this in the toilet of a senior executive at Telfonica/O2, with whom I'm seeing in the new year. When he's drunk enough I'll see what I cancer out of him, about this AND the 1.1.3 rumours. If he does tell me anything though, bear in mind it will be just as much hearsay as anything else on the forum. That is after all what the word hearsay means.
I must say of all the opinions expressed here, I find a lot if sense in Project's views, though he expressed them, maybe too confontationally.
Of course I realize I'm typing this in the toilet of a senior executive at Telfonica/O2, with whom I'm seeing in the new year. When he's drunk enough I'll see what I cancer out of him, about this AND the 1.1.3 rumours. If he does tell me anything though, bear in mind it will be just as much hearsay as anything else on the forum. That is after all what the word hearsay means.
OK hangover wearing off, I can report on my conversation. Sales are "just fine" according to my mate, but he went on to be candid about what O2 want to get out of the deal. Paraphrasing him ('cos I was in no state to take notes!) it goes something like this: ever since the industry started, the deal with phones was that the provides bought the phones wholesale from the manufacturers and the sold/rentedbghem on to the customers. Which means its the suppliers not the manufacturers which take the risk on the success of the phone. And the supplier which takes the hit on discounting or offering phones for free. It also has created the market where providers offer the latest phone free to poach customers from one another. You'll remember that providers used to offer free upgrade half-way through the contract, but this he says has stopped now and instead providers are offering loyalty enhancements.
Anyhow the ideal customer for the providers is post-pay, doesn't change their handset often and uses a lot of data. The ideal relationship with a manufacturer is one where the supplier doesn't take the risk on phone sales, and the manufacturer has a vested interest in keeping the customer happy so with their handset so they're not swapping handsets/suppliers so often. Apparently all the providers would prefer the revenue sharing model (not neccessarlily at the "30-40%" that O2 have signed up to, obviously).
The O2 business case for iPhone is based on acheiving these two aims, but the benefits of brand awareness, association with the Apple brand, media coverage etc are also in the calculation. As was the benefit of making sure Vodaphone didn't get the deal! (apparently O2s success was based on them being flexible enough to make a meeting with two days notice, which Vodaphone couln't manage.
So in short, they are meeting sales targets but the targets are low. Nokia N95s are an amazing seller, but that's ok, cos O2 need to sell them more urgently.
Anyhow the ideal customer for the providers is post-pay, doesn't change their handset often and uses a lot of data. The ideal relationship with a manufacturer is one where the supplier doesn't take the risk on phone sales, and the manufacturer has a vested interest in keeping the customer happy so with their handset so they're not swapping handsets/suppliers so often. Apparently all the providers would prefer the revenue sharing model (not neccessarlily at the "30-40%" that O2 have signed up to, obviously).
The O2 business case for iPhone is based on acheiving these two aims, but the benefits of brand awareness, association with the Apple brand, media coverage etc are also in the calculation. As was the benefit of making sure Vodaphone didn't get the deal! (apparently O2s success was based on them being flexible enough to make a meeting with two days notice, which Vodaphone couln't manage.
So in short, they are meeting sales targets but the targets are low. Nokia N95s are an amazing seller, but that's ok, cos O2 need to sell them more urgently.