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Apple has just about the lowest ratio of R&D to revenue in the business.

I'd be wary of drawing too many conclusions from that oft-quoted statistic.

To start with, different companies use different processes to determine what exactly constitutes "R&D" expenditures.

Secondly, I think you need to recognize that Apple - unlike virtually ALL of its competitors - focuses on a relative handful of products. Compare, for example Apple's iPod, iMac, MacBook, iPhone, and iPad - at best a half dozen product families - with the literal thousands produced by, for example, Sony.

Gizmodo points out that Apple spends about $78 million per product - whereas Sony spends $11.5 million.

I think this R&D spending disparity shows up in the final products we consumers see: Unquestionably Apple products achieve a level of sophistication and delight that Sony (itself no slouch in the product department) never approaches. I also, by the way, think this gives some justification to Apple's claims RE: Trade Dress and Samsung. If Apple spends hundreds of millions gettting the "look-and-feel" of the iPhone and iPad just right - its sort of disgusting when Samsung comes along and blatantly copies that "look-and-feel."

The other thing to keep in mind is this: Apple's revenues have grown far, far faster than most of its competitors. And obviously, as that Top Line number grows, the R&D budget shrinks as a percentage. But its also important to remember that simply throwing dollars at a problem isn't necessarily any guarantee to success. Its just the fact that Apple seems to be much more efficient at how it does it - as Seeking Alpha pointed out back in 2008 - long before the iPad appeared. And long before Apple became the most valuable tech firm in the world.

Lastly, I think a key to understanding Apple, their R&D budget, and the tremendous efficiencies they've been able to achieve, is to be found in a quote from Jon Sculley's book about a visit he and Jobs had to Dr Edwin Land, inventor of the Poloroid camera:

Dr Land had been kicked out of Polaroid. He had his own lab on the Charles River in Cambridge. It was a fascinating afternoon because we were sitting in this big conference room with an empty table. Dr Land and Steve were both looking at the center of the table the whole time they were talking. Dr Land was saying: “I could see what the Polaroid camera should be. It was just as real to me as if it was sitting in front of me before I had ever built one.”

And Steve said: “Yeah, that’s exactly the way I saw the Macintosh.” He said if I asked someone who had only used a personal calculator what a Macintosh should be like they couldn’t have told me. There was no way to do consumer research on it so I had to go and create it and then show it to people and say now what do you think?

Both of them had this ability to not invent products, but discover products. Both of them said these products have always existed – it’s just that no one has ever seen them before. We were the ones who discovered them. The Polaroid camera always existed and the Macintosh always existed — it’s a matter of discovery. Steve had huge admiration for Dr. Land. He was fascinated by that trip.

Steve Jobs - and Apple - don't invent products. They discover them.
 
I can't agree more. Steve Jobs "discovered" the idea of putting the iPhone OS on a tablet instead of OSx in a 2009 post I made here on macrumors. No, I haven't been compensated. ;)

That's great, except it is common knowledge that Steve's idea for the iPad was conceived prior to the iPhone. He built the iPhone first, laying the framework for the iPad.
 
Only because they can't. I personally enjoy having music playing while I check my email, and often check out the provided links using the web browser on my android tablets. A quick jump between them makes cut/paste worthwhile, and when the market app is done downloading an update (in the background) I may open that app too to see what changed, then close it but jump back to my still running email/browser and my notepad app to assemble info/links for a response.

You're about a year late with this argument. Yawn.

What's next - are you going to argue about the lack of MMS on an iPhone?
 
My prediction is that we will soon see very nice WebOS tablets on the market from HTC, Samsung and others. The HP TouchPad hardware is toast and history, but the WebOS will thrive. By 2014 we will see.

Remember that also Google was not successful with their own Android phone hardware, but we see Android all over today.
 
My prediction is that we will soon see very nice WebOS tablets on the market from HTC, Samsung and others. The HP TouchPad hardware is toast and history, but the WebOS will thrive. By 2014 we will see.
"Thrive"? In the past 2 years the WebOS team has been absolutely punished by their various owners and management and many of the top minds have left or been let go. And once again they've got the gloom of uncertainty above them so they aren't really in the position to "thrive" when their employees are scared to death about what their project and personal futures are.

Remember that also Google was not successful with their own Android phone hardware, but we see Android all over today.
Google never made their own hardware. The original Nexus One was by HTC and the Nexus S is Samsung. Both are great phones and the did as good as expected without advertising and in a fragmented market. And as for Androids future, they just bought Motorola which finally does (eventually) give them their own hardware. But the interesting thing to note is that Google spent 12B to put themselves in the same position as HP (First party phone and hardware) and we all know how that worked out for WebOS.
 
Only because they can't. I personally enjoy having music playing while I check my email, and often check out the provided links using the web browser on my android tablets. A quick jump between them makes cut/paste worthwhile, and when the market app is done downloading an update (in the background) I may open that app too to see what changed, then close it but jump back to my still running email/browser and my notepad app to assemble info/links for a response.

As for the Touchpad tease, all the 5-for-$500 Touchpads need to do is run one app at a time to be 5 times better at multitasking than an iPad running one app.

Are you ever going to acknowledge the fact you have no understanding of how multitasking on theipad works? Multiple people replied to this post stating you are flat wrong, because the iPad can do exactly what you said it can't. Hello?
 
My prediction is that we will soon see very nice WebOS tablets on the market from HTC, Samsung and others. The HP TouchPad hardware is toast and history, but the WebOS will thrive. By 2014 we will see.

Remember that also Google was not successful with their own Android phone hardware, but we see Android all over today.

Other companies are already courting WebOS developers, and it is unclear whether HP has any real interest in it anymore. This is unfortunate, and bad for the industry in the long term.
 
Interesting "sister" forum:

http://forums.precentral.net/hp-touchpad/

Let's see which platform wins by end of 2014.

Today i think the iPad 2 is the clear winner, but 2.5 years from now the world could look totally different. Competition is good!

So you think a discontinued device that no one wanted to purchase until they could buy it for $99 will end up being more accepted and utilized than the iPad, which every expert agrees is the better device? What do you base that on anyway?
 
The simple fact is that only rich and no-so-savy shoppers bought non-iPad tablets for iPad prices. The tablets that sold well either started out under $499 or went there eventually. The farther under they were the better they sold. See Asus Transformer @ $399. When Staples held their $100 off any tablet sale (except iPads) several hundred thousand more (of all major brands) were sold. The smart buying public knows and is used to seeing similar tech to what apple sells, at a better price. As soon as any android tablet got to that better price they sold well. HP has a larger flaw to overcome, and it was webOS. Nice as it is, no one believed it would ever be able to match app availability and hardware features with the android many. Another single-manufacturer that jumped alone and bleeding into a tank of sharks (in addition to one killer iWhale). HP wanted iPad prices for the things, and that was too cocky. The Touchpad worked, but had no redeeming quality to justify that. Not cute. Same 4:3 deficiency as the iPad for movies. Price it right, though and they could have kept up regular sales with only minor blood loss. They decided to sacrifice the legs, though, and keep the sharks fed. Tomorrow the sharks will be hungry again, but with no $99 Touchpads left to buy they may have to bleed themselves a little to sell. Expect more $100 off sales. Asus will have a Tegra-3 Transformer out in a month. Expect the current model available for $299 or even $249.
 
Only because they can't. I personally enjoy having music playing while I check my email, and often check out the provided links using the web browser on my android tablets. A quick jump between them makes cut/paste worthwhile, and when the market app is done downloading an update (in the background) I may open that app too to see what changed, then close it but jump back to my still running email/browser and my notepad app to assemble info/links for a response.

What do you mean "they can't?" Every single thing there can be done on a stock iPad, including downloading of an app in the background while you check on the email/browser. :confused: Maybe you don't like using the double click on the home button? Then the gesture is your friend.

The simple fact is that only rich and no-so-savy shoppers bought non-iPad tablets for iPad prices. The tablets that sold well either started out under $499 or went there eventually.

And at this rate, many companies will simply pull out of the tablet market except a very few like Asus who can match the pricing, simply because there's no margin to be made. I suppose guys like Archos can survive with elcheapo tablets and rebadging Chinese brands, but that's not really the same market. Maybe Amazon can provide some excitment?
 
I bought a 32GB Touchpad today. I already own an iPad 2.

Not really sure why I bought the Touchpad. Mostly out of curiosity I guess.

It's funny how many little things Apple does right that you don't even think about until you see how someone else does it wrong. Tiny things, like selecting/copying/pasting text, or typing a colon, are wholly unintuitive.

Forgetting about the chunky hardware, lack of apps, the under clocked processor, lack of caldav support, etc., there are some fantastic things about the Touchpad.

The interface is beautiful. Every icon and button looks like it was designed by David Lanham. The LED lit home button glows slowly when you have email or a message. Useful and beautiful. Really wishing Apple would adopt this.

The vibrations are subtle and quiet but noticeable. The system sounds are refined and stylish. The fonts are retro modern, legible, and great.

The whole OS feels lush and inviting.

If the thing were 7", I'd keep it, but at this point I think I'll let it go. It's like a really beautiful girl with chronic bad breath. You think you might be able to overlook it, but in the end, it's just not gonna work.
 
It's funny how many little things Apple does right that you don't even think about until you see how someone else does it wrong. Tiny things, like selecting/copying/pasting text, or typing a colon, are wholly unintuitive.
But isnt that true when using ANY competing products? None are perfect, but all offer something uniquely superior.

I know what you mean with the iPad having many subtle little things that they nailed, but whats so weird about WebOS is how so many things feel more "Apple" than the iOS equivalent.

Multitasking - WebOS style multitasking feels far more "Apple" than iOS's. On WebOS then "Cards" feel like a mobile Expose, but on iOS then that hidden multitask bar feels like some 3rd party add-on.

Menus - WebOS offers Menus that are packed with info intuitive compared to the clunky Settings layers you have to dig through to do simple things like turn off connectivity or adjust preferences.

Notifications - iOS5 Notifications are okay but once again they dont feel very "Apple" since theyre essentially taking Android style notifications.

Just Type - Search on iOS is decent but Just Type is so customizable and convenient. Once again, it feels more "Spotlight" than apples own iOS Spotlight.

Interoperability between Devices - I own an original Palm Pre. Its the most terrible hardware ever but when I was on the TouchPad it asked if I own one so I linked them. Amazingly I got a dialer to make calls, check VM, text etc. And thats an OLD Pre, the new ones add so much more like sharing links, photos etc. Again iOS brings some photo sharing but considering how old iOS is then there should be MUCH more features for sharing between iOS devices.

Scaling Keyboard - Again, I know iOS5 brings the split keyboard but I find those keys too tiny so its still not universally comfortable. But on WebOS they offer 4 sizes of keyboards by holding down the keyboard button.

Messaging - The way they compile message systems together is so convenient and simple. You want to contact me, ping me on ANY of the popular services and I'll get it. INCLUDING skype which is built in.

File Sorting - Apples trying to push that we let the OS manage files for us. But that theory really works on WebOS where I dropped a folder of mixed media and it sorted it all out and didnt complain about file formats.

Vibrate - It works very elegantly and its a shame the iPad is missing it.

I still prefer my iPad2 by a large margin but using (and appreciating) other OS's is fun and in many areas then Apple could really learn a lot from WebOS.
 
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That's great that you can hack your extinct TouchPad and improve it's performance. But that doesn't mean anything to Joe Consumer. The consumer picks it up, experiences the laggy piece of crap that it is, and then goes and buys an iPad. An extremely small percentage of people who buy a tablet are capable of installing the hacks, patches, etc, and dealing with all of the crap and headaches that goes along with it.

You can't create a winning product by appealing to 1% of the crowd. Apple does it right, by appealing to 99% of the crowd, and the 1% that wants to do childish things like customize your icons, or have animated backgrounds or widgets, can sit there and go buy something else (although, their choices are slowing becoming smaller and smaller!)

Who said they were trying to make it a winning product at this point? They are just trying to get rid of them and get back a little of the money they invested in it.
 
But isnt that true when using ANY competing products? None are perfect, but all offer something uniquely superior.

I know what you mean with the iPad having many subtle little things that they nailed, but whats so weird about WebOS is how so many things feel more "Apple" than the iOS equivalent.

Multitasking - WebOS style multitasking feels far more "Apple" than iOS's. On WebOS then "Cards" feel like a mobile Expose, but on iOS then that hidden multitask bar feels like some 3rd party add-on.

Menus - WebOS offers Menus that are packed with info intuitive compared to the clunky Settings layers you have to dig through to do simple things like turn off connectivity or adjust preferences.

Notifications - iOS5 Notifications are okay but once again they dont feel very "Apple" since theyre essentially taking Android style notifications.

Just Type - Search on iOS is decent but Just Type is so customizable and convenient. Once again, it feels more "Spotlight" than apples own iOS Spotlight.

Interoperability between Devices - I own an original Palm Pre. Its the most terrible hardware ever but when I was on the TouchPad it asked if I own one so I linked them. Amazingly I got a dialer to make calls, check VM, text etc. And thats an OLD Pre, the new ones add so much more like sharing links, photos etc. Again iOS brings some photo sharing but considering how old iOS is then there should be MUCH more features for sharing between iOS devices.

Scaling Keyboard - Again, I know iOS5 brings the split keyboard but I find those keys too tiny so its still not universally comfortable. But on WebOS they offer 4 sizes of keyboards by holding down the keyboard button.

Messaging - The way they compile message systems together is so convenient and simple. You want to contact me, ping me on ANY of the popular services and I'll get it. INCLUDING skype which is built in.

File Sorting - Apples trying to push that we let the OS manage files for us. But that theory really works on WebOS where I dropped a folder of mixed media and it sorted it all out and didnt complain about file formats.

Vibrate - It works very elegantly and its a shame the iPad is missing it.

I still prefer my iPad2 by a large margin but using (and appreciating) other OS's is fun and in many areas then Apple could really learn a lot from WebOS.
Menus are from the 1990's on the Touchpad and you are unable to create folders to place multiple icons into, so you aren't stuck scrolling through a hundred icons per menu.

File sorting - what ypu say is somewhat true and I like Facebook integration and having pictures auto loaded into my photo album, but vid files are restricted to mpeg and h.264, so the HP won't recognize mov, avi, mp4, or mkv files unless you download a $7 video player app.

Messaging and notifications are awesome. Lack of customization sucks though and is very Apple-esque. Even after jailbreaking the TP, the lack of customization sucks.

Scaling keyboard. A good start, just hope someone comes up with a split keyboard for the TP.
 
I really like webos and hope HP can license it out. I think it's better than Android but does need some work. I was very frustrated to find out you can't add books to the kindle app.
 
I picked one up in the fire sale recently. Mainly for my wife (whenever she wants the ipad2 i seem to be using it for development..) but I'll also use it myself a bit (and maybe use it for android dev at some point, if android is properly ported).

I'll sum up my thoughts on it like this: If I'd paid full price, I'd be taking it back for a refund. At the price I paid, I'm very happy with it (and I've ordered the dock + case too!)

The main issue with it is speed I think. I've put the various patches on and it's much better, but the browser is still very slow.

I'm not at all convinced it's the hardware slowing it - how can qualcom's processor be so much slower than the iPad, when the CPU is similar to the A5 (same design, same number of cores, maybe not tweaked for speed like apple's but it runs 20% faster so it should balance out). The GPU is mid-way between the ipad1 and ipad2, so that can't be the problem either, and it has 2x more RAM than the ipad2. If anything, it should be faster, not slower.

My suspicion: it'd doing all the graphics work on the CPU instead of the GPU. Software rendering a big webpage and then trying to do zooming and scrolling is going to be slow, that explains the difference. If they could enable GPU acceleration I bet it'd be VERY fast.

Also, the "2x faster on ipad2" claim: it sounds like they were running webOS software in safari on the iPad, not running the full webOS on it. WebOS software is mostly HTML based, so this is totally possible, and if it's 2x faster on the iPad it simply means the iPad browser is 2x faster.

I think there's HUGE scope to improve speed on the touchpad then, but we'll have to see if anything happens. If not, it's still usable :)
 
I picked one up in the fire sale recently. Mainly for my wife (whenever she wants the ipad2 i seem to be using it for development..) but I'll also use it myself a bit (and maybe use it for android dev at some point, if android is properly ported).

I'll sum up my thoughts on it like this: If I'd paid full price, I'd be taking it back for a refund. At the price I paid, I'm very happy with it (and I've ordered the dock + case too!)

The main issue with it is speed I think. I've put the various patches on and it's much better, but the browser is still very slow.

I'm not at all convinced it's the hardware slowing it - how can qualcom's processor be so much slower than the iPad, when the CPU is similar to the A5 (same design, same number of cores, maybe not tweaked for speed like apple's but it runs 20% faster so it should balance out). The GPU is mid-way between the ipad1 and ipad2, so that can't be the problem either, and it has 2x more RAM than the ipad2. If anything, it should be faster, not slower.

My suspicion: it'd doing all the graphics work on the CPU instead of the GPU. Software rendering a big webpage and then trying to do zooming and scrolling is going to be slow, that explains the difference. If they could enable GPU acceleration I bet it'd be VERY fast.

Also, the "2x faster on ipad2" claim: it sounds like they were running webOS software in safari on the iPad, not running the full webOS on it. WebOS software is mostly HTML based, so this is totally possible, and if it's 2x faster on the iPad it simply means the iPad browser is 2x faster.

I think there's HUGE scope to improve speed on the touchpad then, but we'll have to see if anything happens. If not, it's still usable :)

I'd have to agree for the most part. No Tablet on the market can match the iPad 2 in terms of pure speed and smoothness.

The Android tablets I've played with a even worse than the HP Touchpad.

But I think about overclocking (well really clocking it to its natural 1.5GZ duo core speed), and disabling ads, ripple effects, the TouchPad performs very wells. Not iPad 2 well, but about 85-90% of the iPad2's overall speed.

Most of it has to do with WebOS and it's true multi-tasking as opposed to the iPad's semi multi-tasking. When I initially load an WebOS app, it may take 3 seconds to fully launched. But once it's in memory, it works very well.

Agreed, HP TouchPad isn't worth the $499/599 launch price.

Maybe $349/$449 would have moved more HP TouchPads at launched. But HP would be operating on razor thin margins (since tablets costs around $300 to produce)
 
So from that standpoint I hope that Apple will never ever go below 499 for an entry tablet. Apple needs the margins to innovate and do good things for us consumers.

No company will ever stick with a set price for a product.

It all depends on Mfg, Demand, Supply, and a host of other minor factors.

Apple sold its iPad 1 for $399 when iPad 2 was released, and even sell/sold a refurb iPad 1 for $299.


Like they did with iPhone 3GS, Apple will do well to keep last years model as an entry level unit, it is usually a very good tactic to get budget restricted buyers into products.

----------

Apple is a really a luxury tech. goods company.

Apple is a PIONEERING tech company.

News stuff by nature is very expensive.
 
Maybe $349/$449 would have moved more HP TouchPads at launched. But HP would be operating on razor thin margins (since tablets costs around $300 to produce)

I'm not even sure there'll be any gross margin at $350 considering Best Buy needs margin for selling products too as TouchPad wouldn't have too many secondary income sources (games for consoles, accessories for Apple products) to entice Best Buy to sell TouchPad at no margin. Once you account for other associated costs like R&D, warranty, support, shipping, etc, that'll be a money losing business.
 
totally agree

I hope that the price would be more like 99.99 so everyone could have one..


Most ridiculous thing I ever heard.

I find it really gross when people worry more about corporations over consumers. There's actually a lesson here in this whole HP mess. They're taking a 100M loss in selling touch pads at this price point, but look at how many people are now curious in WebOS and its future. HP was taking a loss anyway so IF HP didn't mishandle their destruction of Palm/WebOS then they could've used these price drops as a marketing tool and could have positioned themselves as the "affordable, yet capable alternative to the iPad" rather than trying to be direct competitors and carved out a niche that would be appealing to both the public and to developers.

As a current Palm Pre user who watched this fantastic product get mismanaged from the start then I could talk for hours about how unfortunate this situation is for the brilliant (former apple) people behind WebOS. So the problem isn't "margins" preventing innovation, its the lack of faith from a parent company.
 
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