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Right....

My point is... even after the fire sale... there can't be that many TouchPads out there. 1 million to 1.2 million at best.

It must be such a low number that they didn't even count it in last quarter's tablet shipments.



Well... we know none of the Android tablet manufacturers ever talk about sales... only shipments.

I'd like to believe that no one buys any other tablet besides the iPad :D But the Android manufacturers keep making them. Somebody must be buying them.

My question was... is the total number of Honeycomb tablets sold to consumers greater than the number of TouchPads sold to consumers?

Honeycomb tablets... while their sales are weak compared to the iPad... they've been around since February.

The TouchPad only went on sale in July... and HP killed it in August... a mere 48 days later.

HP couldn't have manufacturered that many of them in the first place.

If there are, in fact, only 3.8 million Honeycomb tablets in consumers' hands... the TouchPad is still far below that number.

We like to joke that Android tablets aren't selling.... I think HP sold even fewer TouchPads...

I believe that after this next fire sale... the TouchPad will be extinct.

Indeed, estimates by others agree it's probably around 1.2 million.
And yes, I doubt HP's making any more of the Touchpad. Dunno if they'll make a newer design despite saying them they will.

While Touchpads didn't sell as many as Honeycomb units combined, it seems like that those who have Touchpads actually are more likely to use and continue to use their Touchpads than those who have Honeycomb.

http://www.webosroundup.com/2011/08...ue-almost-at-android-tablet-levels-wait-what/
http://www.androjunkie.com/hp-touchpad-beats-android/
http://kneeland.me/2011/10/04/webos-touchpad-beats-android-honeycomb-to-1000-tablet-apps/

Had there been 4 million Touchpads in the firesale, I actually wouldn't be surprised if it still sold out.
 
Fantastic News, it's a wonderful OS, I really hope some hardware companies picked up webOS, at the least something from a company like GeekPhone, making a device for a niche group.

More ideal, someone like HTC, LG or Sony Ericsson(or less likely Samsung, but they already have Android, Windows Phone and Wave)

The app situation worries me a bit, but there are a decent amount of apps in the App Catalogue, but not putting any devices for as long as they have is going to result in apps with out developers to support them in some cases. Hopefully open source it results in the ability to run apps from other sources(like QNX can on RIM's tablet)

This all said, my back up device is a webOS phone, the only one without moving parts(Palm Pixi Plus) and it's a fun device, a little damaged from it's age and the battery isn't as great as it could be, but batteries were 3 dollars from Amazon, so I own about four. The community has create tons of patches and other modifications, turn it into something of an impressive device.
 
Windows 8 promises for sometime in the future? MS can barely get WP7 off the ground, never mind that awful Metro UI duct-taped onto another version of Windows (or rather, two versions in one!) Great plan.

$NEXT_VERSION is shaping up to be one heck of a product.

I am so excited about $NEXT_VERSION of Windows. It will go beyond just solving all of the problems with $CURRENT_VERSION, it will be an entirely new paradigm. Forget about security and UI problems, those are all fixed in $NEXT_VERSION. And they’re finally ridding themselves of $ANCIENT_LEGACY_STUFF.

Also, there’ll be $DATABASE_FILESYSTEM. It’ll be awesome!

I wonder how $NEXT_VERSION will compare to $NEXT_NEXT_VERSION.

W7 is a heck of a product, XP was too. W8 will certainly be one as well.
Your comment seems to apply more on Apple, given the massive bitching at Lion around here.

disclaimer:

In all honesty, i find Lion to be the most promising OSX version in quite some time - at least after you spend some time pulling levers back and forth.
 
Interestingly enough, the statement about it being better optimized and fast is not quite true. :( You can google it, but 7 is actually *slower* than Vista with tests done after it was available to the public. What MS did was to make it appear quicker, but reducing the time the "busy" mouse cursor was on the screen. This means you can interact with the OS, but those interactions are very slow until the OS catches up. In Vista, the OS didn't allow the interaction until the OS was fully ready. Now it takes longer for the OS to get fully ready, but MS gives you the mouse cursor to fool you into thinking the system is up and running.

I've been using Windows since 1.0 came out [and the Amiga since the Amiga came out, and the Mac since the Mac came out]. For me, the best post Windows 3 OS was Windows 2000. XP, Vista, and 7 underperform when compared to Win2k [and my fav pre-95 Windows OS was NT 3.51 and before Win2k, NT 4.0].

Most of the people I interact with in Real Life who use Windows all dislike 7 and have either sold their PC for a Mac or plan on doing so when they need to upgrade next. To me, that says a lot about customer satisfaction. Win 7 PCs are cheap, but you get what you pay for, and you're paying for an inferior OS that comes bundled with an inferior user experience. Normals are finally expecting more from their computers as they get more comfortable with them, and don't want to keep wrestling with them. This is the appeal of the Mac.

And this was what? Comparing first build of W7 with latest build of Vista? If so, makes no sense at all. And... while we're off topic, i ran 2k pro as my main OS for quite some time (+5 years). Good stuff.

p.s.

Also, if W7 "did more" than Vista, then it could've been better optimized while performing worse overall. Theres necessarily no contradiction in terms. Just saying...
 
And this was what? Comparing first build of W7 with latest build of Vista? If so, makes no sense at all. And... while we're off topic, i ran 2k pro as my main OS for quite some time (+5 years). Good stuff.

p.s.

Also, if W7 "did more" than Vista, then it could've been better optimized while performing worse overall. Theres necessarily no contradiction in terms. Just saying...

All tests I have seen show that W7 uses less resources than Vista and is quicker.
 
To posters in general: using the phrase "true multitasking" doesn't win you any arguments, it only means you don't know what you're talking about regardless which team you're cheerleading for.

The word "multitasking" refers to many things. Conflating the contexts only makes people more confused.

At the kernel level, all 4 OS's (iOS, Android, WP7, and webOS) have preemptive multitasking. Which is to say, the same kind of multitasking abilities as your modern desktop computer. Timers are triggered, interrupts happen, context switches occur, new task is running. For all intents and purposes, I doubt anybody will find any reason to believe any of them are better than the others at this level.

Beyond this point, I don't have any information about WP7 as I don't own a WP7 device. On the other hand, I do own the others.

At the user application level (aka, "what does the multitasking system impose on each individual app"), everything differs.
iOS) Apps are suspended and or killed in the background. (with rare exceptions)
*Benefits include lowering system overhead, guaranteeing that the developer needs to be aware of state, less need for physical memory, more predictable UI latency, reasonable guarantee that 3rd party apps cannot do stuff without you knowing about it. It also means battery life is solely dependent on the OS and the foreground app.
*Downsides: less control over application running state, as in inability to indefinitely run an arbitrary app in the background. (in the long run, most users will consider this "problem" to be a benefit when you consider Android.)

Android) Apps each run on top of their own Dalvik VM process. These VM processes continue to run when their UI is backgrounded.
*Benefits include full developer control over process lifetime. This gives the developer flexibility. Since Dalvik uses Java as the model for the language, it's very familiar to the common Java developer to get started with; although some things like Activity are a bit odd.
*Downsides: Most developers don't know how to behave properly as they previously developed in an environment which had a glut of resources. This typically means that apps will continue to consume resources that are not vital to the backgrounded app, and allow developers to continue bad habits, leading to the need for more memory compared to iOS and webOS and worse battery life.
Don't argue with me on this; even Larry Page agrees: http://www.techradar.com/news/phone...your-android-battery-should-last-a-day-690439

webOS) There doesn't appear to be any documents stating exactly whether or not each apps gets its own Javascript VMs instance, but all evidence points in that direction. These VM processes continue to run when their UI is backgrounded unless the device goes to sleep. (https://developer.palm.com/content/api/dev-guide/mojo/background-applications.html)
*Benefits: Use of Javascript/HTML/CSS makes it easy for any web developer to start making basic apps. Since most web apps are event driven with controlled polling, it's easy for a web developer to make a well-behaved app.
Developers could continue to do operations in the background as long as the device is awake.
The callback timer is easy to configure.
*Downsides: It's a web app. Great for most apps, but overhead will eventually grow faster if you need to make more complex apps. Once you leave for the native SDK, then you lost most of the benefits.

At the UI level (aka, meta-app level)(aka, "how do I go from task to task"):
All three allow you to switch to existing apps by using the launcher. Notifications menu also allow switching to related app.

iOS) Double tap home button for recent apps. Can kill some apps by holding down and clearing recent apps list.
Android) Nothing else unless the custom Android distro included something. (I only have ASOP.)
webOS) Card views show you state of app. Tap to enter. Flick to kill. Slide for more.


In summary:
At the kernel level, everybody's equally good.
At the meta-app level, the card task switcher is just plain awesome. Everybody else pales in comparison.
At the app level, it depend on what you value. iOS gives you the least flexibility but more consistent and higher quality because you're pressed into a "best practice or nothing" situation. webOS gives you ease of development (if you're familiar with web tech), higher likelihood that you'll naturally do the right thing, more flexibility than iOS, and more performance than Android. Android gives you the most freedom and the longest leash, of which most developers will use to hang themselves with.

Dont know that much about WP7, but i can add this. They do the card thing, and they do the iOS-false-multitasking thing.

wp7_mango_multitask.jpg


Now that you mention it, I'm not sure if it lets you close down applications from that view. While i doubt it, they certainly should --- just like they should extend the swipe-to-close in W8 to be "swipe-down-to-cards" & "swipe-down-from-card-to-close"

----------

All tests I have seen show that W7 uses less resources than Vista and is quicker.

First, resource-use is a crummy indicator. I don't mind an OS that uses more resources as long as its using them effectively. Second, resource-hogging is often confused with bloat, when what they should really frown on is "resource non-use" --- if your computer has 4gb RAM, and 3gb are currently unavailable, why not have your OS preload things for you? If you need the RAM for something else, it'll just unload itself. Not using resources (e.g. RAM) for the sake of not using resources is as retarded as it gets.

Second, as stated, comparisons between different builds of different OS's doesn't give much of an indication. Like (good) wine, these things mature over time.
 
First, resource-use is a crummy indicator. I don't mind an OS that uses more resources as long as its using them effectively. Second, resource-hogging is often confused with bloat, when what they should really frown on is "resource non-use" --- if your computer has 4gb RAM, and 3gb are currently unavailable, why not have your OS preload things for you? If you need the RAM for something else, it'll just unload itself. Not using resources (e.g. RAM) for the sake of not using resources is as retarded as it gets.

Totally agree
 
Good move by HP, hope HTC, Samsung, LG and others show some interest in webOS based phones. webOS is a lot better than Android and I feel its the only OS that is as refined as iOS.
 
Mmm, yes, open source mean fee for all. If they have to pay licenses to use it then is not open source

Incorrect. Several open source licenses do not include an explicit patent grant, with GPLv2 being a very well known case (that's why there's GPLv3) it gets even worse when one looks at derivatives of the original code (eg using webOS code in Android or iOS)

As an example while Java is open source under the GPLv2 license, Oracle - it's owner - is claiming patent infringement against Google.

Another example were the patents Novell held over it's SuSE Linux distribution. The thing that kept them from acting on them was simply because Novell was in the Open Source Institute's own words "friendly", which is hardly a strong legal basis. It caused a bit of a stir when those patents were sold, something that can also happen to webOS.

Until HP confirms the wording on the license we just can't make any assumptions over what open source means for the patents involved.
 
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You do know the touchpad has *better* specs than the ipad2?

I have both a touchpad, and an iPad 2, and I can honestly say the touchpad is miserably slow compared to the iPad 2. I mainly wanted it for webOS, but otherwise the iPad 2 runs circles around it. Back on subject, I wouldn't mind seeing webOS on some new phones. I always loved the OS, but hated the hardware.
 
Incorrect. Several open source licenses do not include an explicit patent grant, with GPLv2 being a very well known case (that's why there's GPLv3) it gets even worse when one looks at derivatives of the original code (eg using webOS code in Android or iOS)

As an example while Java is open source under the GPLv2 license, Oracle - it's owner - is claiming patent infringement against Google.

Another example were the patents Novell held over it's SuSE Linux distribution. The thing that kept them from acting on them was simply because Novell was in the Open Source Institute's own words "friendly", which is hardly a strong legal basis. It caused a bit of a stir when those patents were sold, something that can also happen to webOS.

Until HP confirms the wording on the license we just can't make any assumptions over what open source means for the patents involved.

Correct me if i am wrong, but Oracles claim is on license breach, rather than patent infringement. Oracles issue with Google is that their product is not compliant with the original license. Hence, their use is not covered by said license - resulting in a case in which Google is infringing on Oracles IP (to which end we can speak of patent infringement).

My point may not be overly clear, but here goes: We need to distinguish between "free to use as long as compliant with license", and "regardless of what you do, you have to pay us licensing fees".

That said, i think we're in basic agreement on one thing: Until the licensing deal is out, nothing can be said.
 
I guess I have the contrarian view here. HP's move is essentially taking one foot out of WebOS's grave. The installed WebOS base isn't big enough to entice quality app makers and no h/w maker has an incentive to make a WebOS device w/o that kind of support.

It's not that WebOS isn't a decent tablet OS, I think it's better than Android. But it was too late to the game and Android sucked up all the anti-iOS air. I don't see developers making 3 versions of their apps just to say it's available on 3 platforms. They are going to stick to where the big money is, and it's not WebOS.

You do know the touchpad has *better* specs than the ipad2?

And your point is what? (Newsflash for you HERE: WebOS ran 2x as fast on the iPad2 as the TouchPad. )
 
First, resource-use is a crummy indicator. I don't mind an OS that uses more resources as long as its using them effectively. Second, resource-hogging is often confused with bloat, when what they should really frown on is "resource non-use" --- if your computer has 4gb RAM, and 3gb are currently unavailable, why not have your OS preload things for you? If you need the RAM for something else, it'll just unload itself. Not using resources (e.g. RAM) for the sake of not using resources is as retarded as it gets.

TL;DR things aren't quite so simple.

Maybe true with on the desktop, where power use isn't really an issue, but it's a bit different in the mobile space where battery matters so much. It's actually possible to only send power to parts of the chip that you're actually using—meaning, if that extra RAM just lays dormant instead of being used to preload things, you can actually get a measurable decrease in power used.

Resource use isn't necessarily an indicator of bloat, but having more resources available DOES consume more power. Check this post from Microsoft's engineering blog (http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/10/07/reducing-runtime-memory-in-windows-8.aspx):

Something that might not be obvious is that minimizing memory usage on low-power platforms can prolong battery life. Huh? In any PC, RAM is constantly consuming power. If an OS uses a lot of memory, it can force device manufacturers to include more physical RAM. The more RAM you have on board, the more power it uses, the less battery life you get.

I know, he's talking about including more RAM, while you're talking about using your existing RAM more efficiently. But RAM isn't a silver bullet; it's actually painfully slow compared to the processor's cache. The processor assumes the right information will be in the cache when it needs it, and you take a performance hit when it has to go all the way to RAM to retrieve it. It's certainly faster than grabbing things from a hard disk, but with phones using solid state drives I don't think it makes a huge amount of difference whether or not the information is preloaded in RAM.
 
Or not.. which seems a lot more likely.



I could say that, but that would be utterly wrong. What would be true is:

Android - developed, invested in and supported by Google.
webOS - abandoned by HP, backed by one one (right now)

And HP is certainly NOT going to be working on any new WebOS hardware.

Learn to read please. HP have already said they will be looking at bringing out WebOS hardware in 2013. They cant do 2012 as they are already committed to a new Win7 tablet.

----------

Not a programmer, so this may be dumb...

That said, could you jailbreak an iPad and make it dual boot into either iOS or WebOS? I vaguely remember an article (can't find any link to it) that mentioned that someone got WebOS running on an iPad, and that it was actually better on it than on the Palm/HP hardware.

IIRC they ran WebOS inside an application framework, so as far as the iPad was concerned, it was an app. I think HP had a prototype bootable on the iPad but theres no way it would ever be released.

WebOS apparently ran very well as an app. Its because the entire frontend is literally just a web page.
 
Learn to read please. HP have already said they will be looking at bringing out WebOS hardware in 2013. They cant do 2012 as they are already committed to a new Win7 tablet.

I take HP's comment w/ a grain of salt. The CE product roadmap is littered with the shadows of vaporware. I think HP made the comment as a way to motivate developers to keep WebOS warm while HP sees how the tablet market unfolds in 2012. IF HP sees an opening they MIGHT make a new WebOS device, but that's far from a given at this point. Meg Whitman might not even be CEO then given how HP shuffles execs lately.
 
As an iOS [and Mac] developer and user, I must say webOS has a way better e.mail client and AppStore client than iOS 5. I own a couple TouchPads, and they beat the socks off any android tablet that I've tried. HP should have led the field in competing with Apple, as their product was the best alternative out there [i've found the TP to be more like the 1st gen iPad and that's not a bad thing considering how far a head start Apple had].

With webOS living on, and future hardware running it coming from HP, this can only be bad news for Google and good news for consumers. webOS is a really solid platform and hopefully this will inspire Apple to improve some of their apps [kinda like how Notification Center was inspired by Android].

This was a very smart move of HP's to do this. I think this worries Apple more than Android does, since Android truly is crap. iOS and webOS will be pushing each other innovation-wise and that's a cool thing!

Couldn't agree more. IMO with a bit of love webOS could become a pretty big hit. There is no doubt that from a development perspective and even a consumer perspective, its a hell of a lot better than Android. I'd even go as far as to say its better than iOS. The biggest downfall is the lack of consumers using it.

----------

I have both a touchpad, and an iPad 2, and I can honestly say the touchpad is miserably slow compared to the iPad 2. I mainly wanted it for webOS, but otherwise the iPad 2 runs circles around it. Back on subject, I wouldn't mind seeing webOS on some new phones. I always loved the OS, but hated the hardware.

Not sure which touchpad you've got but I've never had any kind of slowdown on mine and its heavily used. Try a reformat.
 
TL;DR things aren't quite so simple.

Maybe true with on the desktop, where power use isn't really an issue, but it's a bit different in the mobile space where battery matters so much. It's actually possible to only send power to parts of the chip that you're actually using—meaning, if that extra RAM just lays dormant instead of being used to preload things, you can actually get a measurable decrease in power used.

Resource use isn't necessarily an indicator of bloat, but having more resources available DOES consume more power. Check this post from Microsoft's engineering blog (http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/10/07/reducing-runtime-memory-in-windows-8.aspx):

Most certainly, but i was under the assumption that the context given was the desktop space. As for your comment, while agreeing, that should boil down to efficient power management. If there is power - do lots of preemptive - non disrupting - things. If not, stay cool!

I know, he's talking about including more RAM, while you're talking about using your existing RAM more efficiently. But RAM isn't a silver bullet; it's actually painfully slow compared to the processor's cache. The processor assumes the right information will be in the cache when it needs it, and you take a performance hit when it has to go all the way to RAM to retrieve it. It's certainly faster than grabbing things from a hard disk, but with phones using solid state drives I don't think it makes a huge amount of difference whether or not the information is preloaded in RAM.

And your cache insanely small, compared to your RAM. Further, as we're talking about pre-emptive actions, speed is of lesser importance. Now as for the SSD v. RAM the difference - as you say - may be of lesser importance. Then again, that merely change the location, not the mechanism itself. But sure, for the sake of the argument, lets say then that "HD hogging" isn't necessarily a good indicator either. Its how that "hogged" space is used that matters.
 
Good move by HP, hope HTC, Samsung, LG and others show some interest in webOS based phones. webOS is a lot better than Android and I feel its the only OS that is as refined as iOS.
It's actually superior to iOS and Steve Jobs was nervous about it.
 
Fantastic News, it's a wonderful OS, I really hope some hardware companies picked up webOS, at the least something from a company like GeekPhone, making a device for a niche group.

Pretty much my feelings as well. I recently retired my original Palm Pre for an iPhone 4s and while the iPhone is superior in many aspects (as it should be considering my Pre was using v1 hardware and running 2.x software) there are a number of instances where iOS 5 feels down right clunky compared to to WebOS. It is a very good OS it just can't find a company that can do it justice. Palm had the right idea but not enough money and HP has enough money but not the right idea.


Lethal
 
Pretty much my feelings as well. I recently retired my original Palm Pre for an iPhone 4s and while the iPhone is superior in many aspects (as it should be considering my Pre was using v1 hardware and running 2.x software) there are a number of instances where iOS 5 feels down right clunky compared to to WebOS. It is a very good OS it just can't find a company that can do it justice. Palm had the right idea but not enough money and HP has enough money but not the right idea.


Lethal
You are correct Palm needed cash and to be left alone kinda like a silent investor. I believe HTC used to make Palms devices like the Treo.
 
It's highly doubtful that 5 million Android tablets have been sold in total. (I assume you mean Honeycomb tablets for this timeframe. Besides, we shouldn't be counting any pre-3.0 Android tablets since Google themselves say not to use pre-3.0 Android for tablets.)

Leaving out non-Honeycomb tablets is far too disingenuous.

I'd certainly count my Samsung Tab 7", HTC Flyer and Archos 101 as Android tablets that were sold.

Andy Rubin claims "6 million Android tablets out there", which is to say, in existence. Including those sitting on shelves and warehouses and recycling bins.

Hint: that shipping vs. sold meme doesn't apply all the time.

Rubin said there were six million tablets using Google services. That means they were sold and activated.

On top of that, millions more inexpensive tablets are sold without Google services installed, and are not counted.

Finally, there are the tablets simply using Android as the OS, that Google also doesn't count, like the Nook Color. However, they should not count anyway... unless the user converts and uses them as regular tablets.
 
Leaving out non-Honeycomb tablets is far too disingenuous.

I'd certainly count my Samsung Tab 7", HTC Flyer and Archos 101 as Android tablets that were sold.



Hint: that shipping vs. sold meme doesn't apply all the time.

Rubin said there were six million tablets using Google services. That means they were sold and activated.

On top of that, millions more inexpensive tablets are sold without Google services installed, and are not counted.

Finally, there are the tablets simply using Android as the OS, that Google also doesn't count, like the Nook Color. However, they should not count anyway... unless the user converts and uses them as regular tablets.

Why not.

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For all of you arguing about the merits of good marketing:

Good marketing will help sell anything... ANYTHING. That fact was proved with the "Pet Rock" product.

Good marketing will help a great product sell even better then it normally would. What happens is often a company will try to go "cheap" and let the product sell itself. In the case of Apple, they put a lot of money into marketing and sell a boatload of product... extremely profitably! Apple multiplies their marketing dollars through high sales at high profits. Most companies don't really commit to their products as solidly as Apple.

When Apple stops thinking that the Apple TV is a "hobby" product and marries it up with a total solution and throws their marketing behind it, stand back, because the doors will be blown off the barn!!

People forget a very important thing.

With great marketing and great sales, comes great responsibility. And Apple, no doubt serves their majority of customers better than almost any company out there. Period.
 
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