Actually, bugs do not have a sufficiently developed nervous system to perceive pain, let alone experience "agony." The same is true of lobsters, so boiling them alive is a lot more humane than you would have thought.
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Humpback Whales now being hunted
- Thread starter NewMacGirl
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Actually, bugs do not have a sufficiently developed nervous system to perceive pain, let alone experience "agony." The same is true of lobsters, so boiling them alive is a lot more humane than you would have thought.
Not according to a recent study carried out by Robert Elwood and co. of Queen's University Belfast. They dabbed small amounts of acetic acid on to the antennae of prawns, causing the creatures to groom and rub the affected area for several minutes afterwards. How did the prawns know that the acid was there unless they could feel it? And if small crustaceans like prawns can feel, how can we believe lobsters cannot?
I found an interesting link: link
I think it shows the issue very well. Just because they can sense something doesn't mean that it's pain. Most animals do not have a nervous system capable of feeling any sort of emotion, which is huge part of how we humans experience pain. It is a very complex feeling that is more than just response to a stimulus.
To quote Elwood as to why these comparisons are flawed; "Using the same analogy, one could argue crabs do not have vision because they lack the visual centres of humans." Pain gives an evolutionary advantage, much like sight, and just as with sight it's possible that several parallel systems have evolved in unrelated species. It may be more comfortable ethically for us to see chain ganglia as more primitive nervous systems, but you can't prove that they don't transfer the feeling of pain to the animal just because they can also act without a brain.
That is true. It's a very complicated subject, and very interesting. I don't think we'll ever truly know. Perhaps I just believe what I want to believe.
It does annoy me that the NZ government is all keen to talk about how they wish the Japanese would cease this, but stop there. Surely if you don't want it to happen you would take a stronger stance against it. I know this idea is going to have huge holes in it by all the politically minded people about what a kerfuffle it would cause, but still..
I am quite keen to see the Sea Shepherd group provide some action over summer.
I am quite keen to see the Sea Shepherd group provide some action over summer.
1. What do you expect your government to do?
2. You're against the whaling. From your criticism of your government, what are you personally doing to help the cause?
You know whales eat millions of fishes and thousands of mammals and sea birds. As bad as whale hunting may seem, it would allow those other beautiful creatures to live a little more on this planet.
Is it really bad for people to join that food cycle? Sure it is cause they are the damn Japanese.
Is it really bad for people to join that food cycle? Sure it is cause they are the damn Japanese.
In Australia Malcolm Turnbill is the environment minister and he is just a career politician who seems to be totally in it for himself.
I really think labour will ruin the economy but they seem to be taking a stand on whale hunting and say they will send in the navy.
Howard just wants to ' brown nose' to the Japanese as usual, I think, as a swinging voter my minds made up. Time to get labor in.
a couple of stories on this
http://www.stuff.co.nz/4280844a12.html
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5h8WwMPs8Z62u49jBJKnOKlM2aStg
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/11/12/2087736.htm
I really think labour will ruin the economy but they seem to be taking a stand on whale hunting and say they will send in the navy.
Howard just wants to ' brown nose' to the Japanese as usual, I think, as a swinging voter my minds made up. Time to get labor in.
a couple of stories on this
http://www.stuff.co.nz/4280844a12.html
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5h8WwMPs8Z62u49jBJKnOKlM2aStg
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/11/12/2087736.htm
First things first - if that post really was the stupidest thing you have ever heard - you need to get away form that farm a little more often.
With my comments about cruelty / bad things happening to animals - I wasn't talking about your farm chickens. (I don't think a majority of the eggs in supermarket shelves came from your farm - or a farm like yours) I was talking about commercial egg-farms - you know, those Chicken Paradise Hotels where they are locked in a change 24-7 where they ARE hormonally charged to produce more - and ARE burned out within weeks (egg quality degrades) and then get to be shredded into McNuggets when the eggs don't satisfy the internal "quality standards". (out of the egg box hotel, and into a frozen dinner) I've seen these farms first hand (unfortunately) - and they really do operate like this.
The "rooster surprise" we got one morning nobody expected - as he wasn't supposedly in there. (those chickens had a restraining order) This is what lead the surprise come omelet time.
Truthfully - ever since my ex dragging me through her pre-vet studies on commercial farming - I've changed a LOT of my eating habits. I know many people would. I've been only buying "cage-free" eggs ever since the chicken thing.
I'm unfortunately all to aware of womans' menstrual cycle (most men are). I was trying to say how it wouldn't be ethical to speed up her menstrual cycle to achieve a profit - but somehow it's a-ok to do to "lesser" creatures. (commercial chickens in my scenario)
My whole top-level argument, was to point out how we "pity" a Whale dying over a commercial Cow or Chicken - and that somehow it's death is greater - than say the death of a Bull in a Bull-fight. I DO UNDERSTAND - how in this scenario the Whale is a bigger issue - being a species on the brink of extinction.
Also - to the Scorpion versus the Pig, Cow, Whale or Chicken - I was NOT comparing nervous systems of different organisms or their ability to feel pain. (though I do feel we're wrong to say that WE know A feels less than B)
What I was trying to point out, was that ALL of these creatures have a DESIRE to live. Not necessarily a cognitive process - but the drive that has kept those species on earth for millions of years. That survival instinct is something that should be obvious to anyone. I was saying that killing something that has a desire to exist - isn't exactly pleasant for it. Because we're inflicting exactly what the creature has been trying to avoid since birth.
Most crustaceans are VERY susceptible to changes in chemical balances in their environment. Just keeping shrimp/crabs etc in aquaria is a challenge and often unsuccessful. I'm not saying prawns dont feel pain but they most likely knew exactly where the acid was and tried to get rid of (or get away from) it. Its a bit like taking a fish from the Amazon (soft water, low PH) and putting it in Lake Malawi (Hard Water, High PH). The initial shock of that chemical change is enough to kill most fish (not instantly). Its has nothing to do with pain but what chemicals you are exposed too. If some one straps a can of toxic waste to your dingdong you are going to try and get it off right?
I see two TOTALLY different problem sets and situations within that.
Set one: In my Dreams: If there as a can of toxic waste strapped to my dingdong would I try to get it right off? Not necessarily so fast there. If there is a chance that this Toxic Waste may cause a mutation resulting in a sudden growth spurt and/or acquiring some new super-powers down there. I'd be willing to let it tingle for a while...
Set two: Closer to Reality: If there is a can of toxic waste strapped to my dingdong - hell NO, I'm not going to try and get the little guy off then. That's highly inappropriate, and decidedly bad timing from a pleasure / consequence standpoint. Let alone the fact that the tingling sensation down there would be very distracting to the task at hand, and could severely extend this project into the red.
Not going to vote for them
How does that help the whales?
I just asked those two questions because you said it annoys you "that the NZ government is all keen to talk about how they wish the Japanese would cease this, but stop there." What have you done other than talk about it? It's not an insult; I just want to know, since you criticized your government for the same thing.
Have you donated to organizations like Sea Shepherd, Greenpeace, and/or other groups trying to stop them? Have you even written a letter to your Government to voice your concern about their inactivity?
If you're so appalled that your government is only willing to talk about it rather than actively trying to "stop it" , why did you stop there. How would your government do "stop them"....launch a war? Block all Japanese goods from entering NZ? I honestly feel that your government has probably done as much as it could by expressing their concern alongside the rest of the world. Physical intervention has never worked. It just makes it annoying for them when they go whaling. It doesn't actually stop it at all, nor does it encourage them to stop.
They probably have a strong stance against it.
Alright, ease up buddy it was just an off the cuff remark. I am well aware that there is very little more the NZ government can do.
Not exactly sure how you got "appalled" from the word annoy.
Whaling for Aussie and Kiwi folks
Hey NewMacGirl
I saw that you had a link to IFAW originally, there is an aussie IFAW page
http://www.stopwhaling.com.au
for those of you who are eligible to vote in Australia you can email your local candidate and ask them what they will do to stop whaling. The website finds them all for you.
there is also a link to send an email for New Zealand folk.
This is for the election on Saturday after that once we know who the environment minister and the prime Minister are we will be creating a new action.
and yes I work for IFAW
Hey NewMacGirl
I saw that you had a link to IFAW originally, there is an aussie IFAW page
http://www.stopwhaling.com.au
for those of you who are eligible to vote in Australia you can email your local candidate and ask them what they will do to stop whaling. The website finds them all for you.
there is also a link to send an email for New Zealand folk.
This is for the election on Saturday after that once we know who the environment minister and the prime Minister are we will be creating a new action.
and yes I work for IFAW
Hi Thanks for the reply. You are doing great work, I have seen your stopwhaling.org on a few Australian websites so its good to see word is getting out.
I haven't seen Rudd or Howard being asked any questions on whaling during any press conferances, but confess I haven't watched that many.
I would like to know what each parties policies are on this and what they will do. They both seem quite spineless though.
I will email my local MP as you suggest.
I don't blame the Japanese people in general as I have a few Japanese freinds who are upset at their own government and apparently the younger trendy generation shun it and dissaproove of people eating it and I'm told its becoming very unfashionable.
This is encouraging so don't hold anything against the Japanese as you can't tar an entire nation with one brush!
Keep up the good work, I just hope you are successful in your campaign. I think you should try and get the younger japanese onside as well to put pressure on their own government too.
I haven't seen Rudd or Howard being asked any questions on whaling during any press conferances, but confess I haven't watched that many.
I would like to know what each parties policies are on this and what they will do. They both seem quite spineless though.
I will email my local MP as you suggest.
I don't blame the Japanese people in general as I have a few Japanese freinds who are upset at their own government and apparently the younger trendy generation shun it and dissaproove of people eating it and I'm told its becoming very unfashionable.
This is encouraging so don't hold anything against the Japanese as you can't tar an entire nation with one brush!
Keep up the good work, I just hope you are successful in your campaign. I think you should try and get the younger japanese onside as well to put pressure on their own government too.
You know why of course, they're farmed and they don't have mystique
As someone else referred to, Star Trek IV would have been greatly uninteresting if they had to bring back a couple of heffers It's about nationalism, economy, jobs and political horsetrading - much like, oh I don't know, certain countries involvement in certain conflicts for example
- as much as anything else. Of course there's little 'research' beyond the bare minimum of any such efforts. Whalemeat as food isn't exactly high on the agenda in Japan as far as I know, rather like dogmeat in most metropolitan areas of China and Korea these days, it's regarded as pretty passé. However, I doubt that just because people choose to stop eating whalemeat this will go away.The issue is that there are still whole communities (like fishing villages in - well, almost any country that depend on fishing) that depend on whaling. The situation is similar to cod fishermen affected by the ban on fishing, however the Japanese whaling lobby has a far bigger clout than any anti-cod-ban lobby has in Europe or the US, because thanks to the predictable tone of protests from other countries it's turned into a nationalist issue, which is strongly supported by many right-wing politicians. In other words, the tone of reporting and opinion (as also evidenced to some degree here) outside of Japan actually strengthens the right-wing lobby. This has also been the same in many fishing spats that have broken out across Europe - but that's white vs white, not white vs yellow and certainly not with cute / majestic whales and dolphins.
Ultimately it's not about the whales at all. It's about people. Sort that out, and the whales have a decent chance.
Sorry the argument that the whale hunters have a cultural right and will be unemployed to hunt whales is a non starter. That's life, things change, look at the industrial revolution. The Luddites thought they could stop progress by smashing machinery but things move on. The human race has been adapting and changing due to economic circumstances from time in eternity. The whalers just have to find something else to do to earn a crust. The embarresment and economic penalty they are bringing to Japan can't be worth it. This is playing very badly throughout the world and I know people who are boycotting Japanese products and I don't think its uncommon.