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I am Feeling the Burn.

Mendota

Mendota

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Jan 9, 2019
617
1,209
Omaha
Not to be too dramatic, but I have just become aware that I will no longer be able to duel boot Linux on future Macs due to the T2 chip. I am downright depressed. I prefer duel boot because it is straight forward and everything works natively without having to go through emulations and install extra tools. Linux on Mac is so straightforward. Now it will be no more. In addition some 32bit applications I like, (to included some games) will also bite the dust. I just don't get why it is so important to Apple to take away things and control everything.

This is why Mac can never be my preferred system. Well I got that off my chest. Feel free to tell me why Apple's way is best. Maybe someone can convince me...
 
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Well...if you need Linux, then Apple is not the right tool for you.
Perhaps you could try installing and running Linux from a fast external SSD like the Samsung X5?
 
macjunk(ie) said:
Well...if you need Linux, then Apple is not the right tool for you.
Perhaps you could try installing and running Linux from a fast external SSD like the Samsung X5?
Click to expand...

Well it is not a matter if whether or not it is the right tool. I like to run all of the current systems. But Apple is pushing me to having to consider giving them up. The 2015 model may be the last that I am willing to buy. Maybe if they do ARM, there might be some interest just to try it. Well I still have my iPads to keep me in the Apple world.
 
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Mendota said:
Feel free to tell me why Apple's way is best.
Click to expand...
Its not the best and for a number of reasons a number of us long time mac users have moved on. I always felt the T2 chip was a technology apple could use to exert more control of how consumers use the laptop.

The design is beautiful, no question but laptops are balance of compromises, and Apple chose to design a laptop with a some questionable technologies and I think the T2 being so proprietary and non-standard definitely causes problems for many people.
 
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maflynn said:
Its not the best and for a number of reasons a number of us long time mac users have moved on. I always felt the T2 chip was a technology apple could use to exert more control of how consumers use the laptop.

The design is beautiful, no question but laptops are balance of compromises, and Apple chose to design a laptop with a some questionable technologies and I think the T2 being so proprietary and non-standard definitely causes problems for many people.
Click to expand...

That and that keyboard is just so gross feeling to type on IMO compared to the old Retina ones. Why change something that was perfect. :| Was that extra 2mm thickness lost really worth it??????
 
Apple clearly goofed but Apple has had problems with MacBook Pros before. I don't think that the past problems are as bad as they are today though. I would hate to go back to Windows as a primary computer because I love the iCloud/iPhone/iPad integration. But Windows as a second system is possible. The iMac is possible though I don't like the idea of an AIO.
 
ReanimationLP said:
Was that extra 2mm thickness lost really worth it?
Click to expand...
Given how many people hate typing on it, and the issues, probably not. Even so it seems many laptop manufacturers have been able to retain a decent if not excellent keyboard in their thin laptops without resorting to such flimsy designs.

The 2018 MBP is 15.5mm
The RTX version of Razer blade (advanced) is 17.8mm
Lenovo X1E 18.7mm
Dell XPS 17mm
Alienware M15 21mm

All but one of them are about 2 to 3 millimeters thicker and I think all of them have user replaceable components, so we have a population of thin laptops that provide a superior typing experience, with a more durable non-flawed keyboard, they also have components that are user replaceable.
 
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maflynn said:
Given how many people hate typing on it, and the issues, probably not. Even so it seems many laptop manufacturers have been able to retain a decent if not excellent keyboard in their thin laptops without resorting to such flimsy designs.

The 2018 MBP is 15.5mm
The RTX version of Razer blade (advanced) is 17.8mm
Lenovo X1E 18.7mm
Dell XPS 17mm
Alienware M15 21mm

All but one of them are about 2 to 3 millimeters thicker and I think all of them have user replaceable components, so we have a population of thin laptops that provide a superior typing experience, with a more durable non-flawed keyboard, they also have components that are user replaceable.
Click to expand...

2015 MBP 15 18 mm
2008 MBP 17 inches 25.9 mm (My personal favorite keyboard)

So Apple is the thinnest but they would only need to get to 16.9 mm to get there.
 
Mendota said:
Not to be too dramatic, but I have just become aware that I will no longer be able to duel boot Linux on future Macs due to the T2 chip. I am downright depressed. I prefer duel boot because it is straight forward and everything works natively without having to go through emulations and install extra tools. Linux on Mac is so straightforward. Now it will be no more. In addition some 32bit applications I like, (to included some games) will also bite the dust. I just don't get why it is so important to Apple to take away things and control everything.

This is why Mac can never be my preferred system. Well I got that off my chest. Feel free to tell me why Apple's way is best. Maybe someone can convince me...
Click to expand...

I hear you, although IME Linux on a Macbook was never an especially satisfactory experience in any case; proprietary Broadcom wifi, dodgy soundcard setups (optical i/o issues), proprietary driver code for Touchbar, kludges for Fkey media and screen controls, part-functioning hibernation & power management etc... Sure, you could get Linux running on a Macbook before advent of the T2, but it always felt like a sub optimal experience and a kludge. Just get a decent open platform PC laptop - Dell, Lenovo, Asus etc - and the whole Linux experience improves tenfold.

People like to invoke the BSD/Unix origins of Darwin & the MacOS, but in truth todays Apple have never really been about providing 'open' platforms; their way is all about providing a low-hassle, closed, screwed-down synergy of proprietary hardware & OS - and of course this is both its strength and its weakness. Apple are really not interested in aiding you with being able to use theor devices for anything outside their carefully curated garden.
 
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pshufd said:
So Apple is the thinnest but they would only need to get to 16.9 mm to get there.
Click to expand...
But benefit would there, there comes a point of diminishing returns and I think for laptop dimensions we're at that point, at least for the performance class machines.
 
maflynn said:
The 2018 MBP is 15.5mm
Dell XPS 17mm


All but one of them are about 2 to 3 millimeters thicker and I think all of them have user replaceable components
Click to expand...

Can attest, have an XPS 13 9370 as my personal Ultrabook and then use a Dell Precision 5530 (Dell XPS15 with a Xeon and Quadro GPU).

Can upgrade the SSD in both. The Precision also has 2 SO-DIMM slot. Keyboard is beautiful to type on.

I ended up going way back when with an XPS13 (the first one) since Apple wasn't bothering with a Retina MBA 11".
 
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ReanimationLP said:
Can attest, have an XPS 13 9370 as my personal Ultrabook and then use a Dell Precision 5530 (Dell XPS15 with a Xeon and Quadro GPU).

Can upgrade the SSD in both. The Precision also has 2 SO-DIMM slot. Keyboard is beautiful to type on.

I ended up going way back when with an XPS13 (the first one) since Apple wasn't bothering with a Retina MBA 11".
Click to expand...

I have one of those in a drawer - the 2008 XPS M1330. It sill works though it's slow and the fans come on easily. Mine came with a bad keyboard which Dell fixed in a week. Bad spacebar design with two posts. The replacement came with three posts.
 
ReanimationLP said:
Can attest, have an XPS 13 9370
Click to expand...
As my signature shows, I have the Thinkpad X1E, and while 3mm thicker offers a keyboard that is superior to apple's in every way. Curved keycaps, good travel, good tactile feedback, its even spill proof/water resistant.

I did something this weekend that I could not do on the MBP - I upgraded the storage, by adding a second M.2 NVME drive. They didn't mess with the consumer by using odd/non standard screws, I easily popped the back off, and slapped the SSD into second slot.
 
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maflynn said:
As my signature shows, I have the Thinkpad X1E, and while 3mm thicker offers a keyboard that is superior to apple's in every way. Curved keycaps, good travel, good tactile feedback, its even spill proof/water resistant.

I did something this weekend that I could not do on the MBP - I upgraded the storage, by adding a second M.2 NVME drive. They didn't mess with the consumer by using odd/non standard screws, I easily popped the back off, and slapped the SSD into second slot.
Click to expand...

The second SSD slot is a nice touch. You can easily add storage without having to do anything with the operating system.
 
Mendota said:
The Apple SSD drive that is controlled by the T2 chip cannot be read by Linux.
Click to expand...
So your complaint is: there is no device driver for the T2 in the Linux kernel.

Well **** A DUCK. Next you'll tell me they don't ship iPhone device drivers for Android either?
 
Stephen.R said:
So your complaint is: there is no device driver for the T2 in the Linux kernel.
Click to expand...
No, I believe its more about the T2 not permitting access to the internal drive. You can install windows, and that does not have any T2 drivers, so its an arbitrary decision by apple.

Stephen.R said:
Well **** A DUCK. Next you'll tell me they don't ship iPhone device drivers for Android either?
Click to expand...
Apples and oranges. We have a laptop running with industry standard chipsets and until 2018, people had the opportunity to use the operating system of their choice. Apple chose to lockdown the laptop with proprietary components and what used to be benefit of ownership (choice) is no longer there.
[doublepost=1557836187][/doublepost]
pshufd said:
The second SSD slot is a nice touch. You can easily add storage without having to do anything with the operating system.
Click to expand...
Yep, I made a data drive and I install Linux, so I keep my windows drive untouched, but now I can run linux as well
 
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maflynn said:
No, I believe its more about the T2 not permitting access to the internal drive.
Click to expand...

The myriad of articles about this all seem to revolve around the Phoronix article, which itself links to a Unix&Linux StackExchange question, where someone specifically says they got access to the device but the machine reset.

Apple has a very proprietary SSD controller (amongst other things) and the first "guess" (because 99% of the **** posted is just people guessing based on what they've read) is "well this is clearly Apple deliberately locking out Linux. This makes zero sense: Apple make their money from Hardware, not software. They give macOS away for free. Assuming this is malignant intent rather than just plain old hardware incompatibility because of a lack of drivers shows something about the assumptions of people here.
[doublepost=1557838517][/doublepost]
maflynn said:
Apple chose to lockdown the laptop with proprietary components
Click to expand...
Yes, and I'd bet money that not once did "hey we can also block Linux" come up in that conversation.

They don't support it with drivers etc - no question, but that's hardly their responsibility.
 
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Stephen.R said:
Yes, and I'd bet money that not once did "hey we can also block Linux" come up in that conversation.
Click to expand...
I don't know. Remember when MS did something similar with windows 10. I think they relented a bit and you can turn off safe boot. I think in both cases, both MS and Apple were looking to lock out competing operating systems. If apple moves to ARM, I think the Mac will be even more locked down
 
maflynn said:
Remember when MS did something similar with windows 10.
Click to expand...

The cheapest version of Windows 10 is "Home" for $139. As of may last year 700M PCs run Windows 10.

Even if half of them are new PCs where the OEM pays a reduced price (and lets be generous and round them down to $0), and ignoring that the Pro version is $200, the potential lost revenue for Microsoft if people use Linux instead of Windows is $139x350M or $48billion.

Now let's compare, Apple charges $0 for macOS, and sold about 18M macs in 2018. If all of those were T2-enabled (which they weren't) the potential lost revenue for Apple if people use Linux instead of macOS is $0x18M, or $0Billion.
 
Its proprietary, its Apple, no-one should be surprised that this doesn't work.
The T2 chip blocks out some 3rd party repairs as well.
 
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