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OP wrote:
"This means that you have to use an external drive... Not very practical."

Yes, it's an extra step to plug in and use an external drive to boot from Linux if you want... but booting and running from a fast external SSD is quite easy on the Mac. Even from a laptop.

Sometimes one has to do, what one has to do.

I don't care for the t2 concept either.
But... it's there, and I don't see Apple removing it from their future designs.
 
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If I want to dual boot something, I'll use my Dell. I don't want to dual boot on Mac so I run Parallels. Tastes great, less filling.
 
Even if half of them are new PCs where the OEM pays a reduced price (and lets be generous and round them down to $0), and ignoring that the Pro version is $200, the potential lost revenue for Microsoft if people use Linux instead of Windows is $139x350M or $48billion.

Now let's compare, Apple charges $0 for macOS, and sold about 18M macs in 2018. If all of those were T2-enabled (which they weren't) the potential lost revenue for Apple if people use Linux instead of macOS is $0x18M, or $0Billion.
I think your logic is flawed. Windows 10 is included in the price of a new PC, and most sellers don't have options to not include the OS in the sale of the laptop, so MS isn't in danger of losing out very much on lost revenue. (I understand people who build computers have to buy the license)

Similarly macOS's cost is baked into the price of the hardware.
[doublepost=1557848002][/doublepost]Let me also add, that this seems to fit Apple M.O of controlling and managing all aspects of the computer. While you question the financial impact, I think it fits their philosophical perspective of locking down and controlling everything
 
As my signature shows, I have the Thinkpad X1E, and while 3mm thicker offers a keyboard that is superior to apple's in every way. Curved keycaps, good travel, good tactile feedback, its even spill proof/water resistant.

I did something this weekend that I could not do on the MBP - I upgraded the storage, by adding a second M.2 NVME drive. They didn't mess with the consumer by using odd/non standard screws, I easily popped the back off, and slapped the SSD into second slot.

You have been able to do that for years on some non-Apple notebooks. We have Dells XPS 15s that have had 4 TB of (2 X 2TB SSDs) from 2014.
[doublepost=1557848838][/doublepost]I am actual a little surprised that anyone expects to Apple to not place their OS as the one they think everyone should run. It is baked into the company's DNA. Going all the way back to the 90s when Job's talked about Sand. Where silica sand poured into a factory at one and computers came out the other, all controlled by Apple.

Look at the Watch today. Very useful and potentially lifesaving with heart monitoring allowing early detection of heart disease. But, tied to the iPhone and purposely darn near useless without an iPhone.
 
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Windows 10 is included in the price of a new PC
If the person buys a new PC, yes, and if that PC vendor ships it with Windows. It's still "someone" (in this case a vendor) having to buy Windows from Microsoft, or install a Linux distro.

Additionally, plenty of people/organisations upgrade their PCs, and Microsoft definitely push to get people to upgrade the OS rather than just buying a new PC.

Ultimately, Microsoft makes money from the software - and they have a vested interest in keeping people using their software.

Similarly macOS's cost is baked into the price of the hardware.

It isn't similar though. Microsoft sells the software, period. Whether it's to an end user, a volume licensed corporation or a vendor, it's a licensed software product with a price.

Apple sells the hardware, period. No one anywhere is buying macOS, because it isn't a product for sale.
 
No one anywhere is buying macOS, because it isn't a product for sale.

As @maflynn implied, MacOS may not be sold but its intrinsic cost is included in the high price of a Mac computer.

This includes free updates to the latest MacOS which in turn drives the need to upgrade the hardware.

Apple sells the hardware, period.

People may claim that Apple is a hardware company but, I believe that very few people would purchase the hardware without MacOS.
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Its proprietary, its Apple, no-one should be surprised that this doesn't work.
The T2 chip blocks out some 3rd party repairs as well.

My opinion only but I think that in the future the T2 will be used to block hackintoshes from running the latest MacOS (MacOS will require a T2 in order to run).
 
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Additionally, plenty of people/organisations upgrade their PCs, and Microsoft definitely push to get people to upgrade the OS rather than just buying a new PC.

You know that Windows 10 is the 'final' Windows release, the concept Windows-as-a-service? There will be no upgrade fees ever for it (on the consumer market). And when it was released you could upgrade for free for like two years from earlier versions.

Ultimately, Microsoft makes money from the software - and they have a vested interest in keeping people using their software.

Windows revenue accounts for only about 20% of Microsoft's total and the consumer portion is dropping, while commercial (volume licensing etc) is on the rise.

And yes, you pay big time for MacOS and iOS. Just because it is not a separate charge on the invoice doesn't mean this cost isn't included.
 
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If the person buys a new PC, yes, and if that PC vendor ships it with Windows. It's still "someone" (in this case a vendor) having to buy Windows from Microsoft, or install a Linux distro.
Yes, some people still on windows 7 or 8 will need to buy a copy, just like people buying a PC. Business is different, you may not be aware but enterprises pay a subscription

It isn't similar though. Microsoft sells the software, period.
They also sell hardware period.

Apple sells the hardware, period.
*cough*
Really, someone should tell Apple not to sell software :rolleyes:
Capture.PNG

I think you're missing the point period. Buying a laptop from most companies, will include windows 10 and Apple like MS tried to lock down their hardware, but at least MS relented. I don't expect apple do that as they prefer to control everything.
 
As @maflynn implied, MacOS may not be sold but its intrinsic cost is included in the high price of a Mac computer.

Which is irrelevant. The argument is that Apple wants to force people to run macOS on Apple hardware (which obviously ignores that Bootcamp is a thing that exists and is supported).

My point is that Apple gains nothing by blocking Linux deliberately - they're not going to support it, but the lack of compatibility with Linux is a case of "not our problem" not "oh no you don't"

People may claim that Apple is a hardware company but, I believe that very few people would purchase the hardware without MacOS.

Again irrelevant. You cannot buy macOS from Apple, and in their eyes you cannot run macOS without buying Apple hardware. There is zero threat to them of people buying Apple hardware, and running Linux on it - those people have already paid their share of macOS development costs.

Windows revenue accounts for only about 20% of Microsoft's

Windows 10 is about 4 years old, Microsoft revenue since that time is about $444B, and 20% of that is $88.8B, so that's double what I guesstimated as how much Microsoft "makes" from Windows.

The argument here was that Microsoft took steps to prevent competitors to Windows being installed on PCs. They have a reason to: if Aunt Fanny is happy to use Ubuntu why does she need to pay $130 for a new Windows licence?

Apple doesn't have the same drive: no one pays for macOS directly (so installing Linux means they've still been paid for the software even if you only use the hardware), there's no cost advantage to the 'competition', and they already support Mac hardware for a long god damn time. I just replaced a 2011 MBP last year. 7 years, they provided software updates for it. If they wanted to force people to keep buying newer hardware, they'd start by dropping software support for machines they don't even sell parts for!

And yes, you pay big time for MacOS and iOS. Just because it is not a separate charge on the invoice doesn't mean this cost isn't included.
And, irrelevant to my point.
[doublepost=1557853003][/doublepost]
Business is different, you may not be aware but enterprises pay a subscription
So, literally more incentive for Microsoft's actions? Are you trying to make my point for me now?

They also sell hardware period.
How many PCs that might conceivably run Windows or Linux, do Microsoft sell?

Really, someone should tell Apple not to sell software
When did I say they don't sell software?


You raised this whole topic of "well Microsoft were ****** about letting Linux boot" - my point is that the two companies have very different business models, and thus what you see as "similar" end result, is not necessarily similar intention.
[doublepost=1557853296][/doublepost]
I think you're missing the point period.
One of us certainly is.

Apple like MS tried to lock down their hardware
But you haven't shown any evidence that Linux' inability to run on a T2 equipped Mac is anything but lack of support in drivers - there is zero evidence that it's a deliberate attempt to prevent it from running, if they wanted to prevent it, why would they allow safe boot to be disabled at all, hell why would they allow ****ing bootcamp if they don't want people to run anything but macOS?


Have you never heard of Hanlon's Razor?
 
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given that the point is that T2 is locking out people from installing other operating systems like Linux

And yet actively supporting Windows, and doesn't actually prevent Linux booting at all.

You're convinced Apple deliberately blocks Linux from accessing the internal SSD via the T2, but they figured no one in the history of Macs has ever booted one from an external disk before?

with some sort of axe to grind
I'm not the one perpetuating a conspiracy theory without evidence mate.
 
Apple clearly goofed but Apple has had problems with MacBook Pros before. I don't think that the past problems are as bad as they are today though. I would hate to go back to Windows as a primary computer because I love the iCloud/iPhone/iPad integration. But Windows as a second system is possible. The iMac is possible though I don't like the idea of an AIO.

Well in the past, they had some in adverted mistakes. The T2 chip is deliberate. The coming removal of 32bit is also deliberate. Well some might make some performance arguments for dropping 32bit support, the fact is Windows and Linux both support it and I don't have "performance" issues there. So I don't know, I don't want to get into bashing mode, but I just don't get it.
[doublepost=1557863356][/doublepost]
I hear you, although IME Linux on a Macbook was never an especially satisfactory experience in any case; proprietary Broadcom wifi, dodgy soundcard setups (optical i/o issues), proprietary driver code for Touchbar, kludges for Fkey media and screen controls, part-functioning hibernation & power management etc... Sure, you could get Linux running on a Macbook before advent of the T2, but it always felt like a sub optimal experience and a kludge. Just get a decent open platform PC laptop - Dell, Lenovo, Asus etc - and the whole Linux experience improves tenfold.

People like to invoke the BSD/Unix origins of Darwin & the MacOS, but in truth todays Apple have never really been about providing 'open' platforms; their way is all about providing a low-hassle, closed, screwed-down synergy of proprietary hardware & OS - and of course this is both its strength and its weakness. Apple are really not interested in aiding you with being able to use theor devices for anything outside their carefully curated garden.

Well I never had any issues running Mint on my previous Macs, but I agree with your over all sentiment. I am thinking of buying a dedicated Linux notebook, perhaps a KDE Slimbook, or a Star, and I have a little Pinebook and they are working on a "pro" version of it that I can pick up. Sigh... But I loved duel booting the Mac to Mint and it was one of the main functions I used it for. All of my computers have different jobs and functions and provide a different experience for me. That is what makes them fun. Now Apple is taking away a lot of what I enjoyed on the Mac. It is not a gaming machine, and it is not a drawing or painting computer as my Surfaces are, and I don't do any video editing so...
 
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Given how many people hate typing on it, and the issues, probably not. Even so it seems many laptop manufacturers have been able to retain a decent if not excellent keyboard in their thin laptops without resorting to such flimsy designs.

The 2018 MBP is 15.5mm
The RTX version of Razer blade (advanced) is 17.8mm
Lenovo X1E 18.7mm
Dell XPS 17mm
Alienware M15 21mm

All but one of them are about 2 to 3 millimeters thicker and I think all of them have user replaceable components, so we have a population of thin laptops that provide a superior typing experience, with a more durable non-flawed keyboard, they also have components that are user replaceable.

Mac's having absolutely no capacity for user upgrade or repair is solely a deliberate act by Apple and extremely hostile towards the consumer. Other thin & light notebooks generally offer some level of upgrade (M.2 SSD), they also offer far superior keyboards with greater travel. Apple's actions are in place for one reason to force up-sale, with the customer paying significant extra margin on inhouse upgrades and or repairs.

What Apple wants is dumbed down hardware and dumbed down customers, who don't question, are loyal, are happy to hand over their credit card with numerous subscriptions to services. Apple has systematically stripped the Mac of value, the epitome being the 2016 MPB being a basic clamshell notebook with an asking price of $4K for a reasonably specified 15" model.

Pricing would be fine if the value existed, it simply doesn't equally if one is "locked" into macOS options are limited in the extreme. Apple is demanding a significant premium and margin, yet the current MBP for many is simply overpriced and underwhelming, very far from hardware designed with professional use in mind. IMO the MBP design is very much optimised to minimise production cost, hence SSD's on the Logic Board, removal of the data recovery port etc.

To me Apple has little interest in the volume of Mac's it sells, Apple however does attach a significant financial number to the Mac. So in many respects the fewer Mac's it produces, with higher margin the better it is for Apple and for that someone is paying.

As I've frequently said monopolies only serve one end, as the dice are always loaded...

Q-6
 
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So your complaint is: there is no device driver for the T2 in the Linux kernel.

Well **** A DUCK. Next you'll tell me they don't ship iPhone device drivers for Android either?

At the end of the day, I can do something on my current Mac that I cannot do with the new ones.
[doublepost=1557863707][/doublepost]
No, I believe its more about the T2 not permitting access to the internal drive. You can install windows, and that does not have any T2 drivers, so its an arbitrary decision by apple.


Apples and oranges. We have a laptop running with industry standard chipsets and until 2018, people had the opportunity to use the operating system of their choice. Apple chose to lockdown the laptop with proprietary components and what used to be benefit of ownership (choice) is no longer there.
[doublepost=1557836187][/doublepost]
Yep, I made a data drive and I install Linux, so I keep my windows drive untouched, but now I can run linux as well

Oh... hit me where it hurts.
 
The cheapest version of Windows 10 is "Home" for $139. As of may last year 700M PCs run Windows 10.

Even if half of them are new PCs where the OEM pays a reduced price (and lets be generous and round them down to $0), and ignoring that the Pro version is $200, the potential lost revenue for Microsoft if people use Linux instead of Windows is $139x350M or $48billion.

Now let's compare, Apple charges $0 for macOS, and sold about 18M macs in 2018. If all of those were T2-enabled (which they weren't) the potential lost revenue for Apple if people use Linux instead of macOS is $0x18M, or $0Billion.

Cost of macOS is baked into the price of every single Mac sold and then some :rolleyes: Exactly the same as a W10 hardware OEM passes the W10 licensing cost to the end user, so does Apple...

Q-6
 
Well in the past, they had some in adverted mistakes. The T2 chip is deliberate. The coming removal of 32bit is also deliberate. Well some might make some performance arguments for dropping 32bit support, the fact is Windows and Linux both support it and I don't have "performance" issues there. So I don't know, I don't want to get into bashing mode, but I just don't get it.

If the Windows team thought they could get away with dumping 32 bit support they would.

As it is now they have to maintain Windows on Windows (WOW) layer that intercepts all of the 32 bit calls and file operations and as required calls one or more of their 64 bit equivalents. This especially is an issue for some device drivers and does have a performance hit. Luckily with faster CPUs and bigger memory most users get OK performance on their 32 bit apps running on 64 bit operating system. Still it is kind of a maintenance headache for MSFT OS developers .
 
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Which is irrelevant. The argument is that Apple wants to force people to run macOS on Apple hardware. <snip>

My point is that Apple gains nothing by blocking Linux deliberately - they're not going to support it, but the lack of compatibility with Linux is a case of "not our problem" not "oh no you don't" <snip>

Again irrelevant. You cannot buy macOS from Apple, and in their eyes you cannot run macOS without buying Apple hardware. There is zero threat to them of people buying Apple hardware, and running Linux on it - those people have already paid their share of macOS development costs.

I think Apple very much does want people to run MacOS - and nothing else - on their hardware. As we keep hearing, the fastest growing, most important income stream for Apple is their services. And these services - iCloud, Music, Apple TV etc - are very much designed to dovetail with their iOS and MacOS walled gardens. iOS is already locked down so that it can only use apps & content purchased through their store, and its not a huge stretch to imagine thats where MacOS may be increasingly heading in the future.

Apple dont charge directly for MacOS but there's a bigger picture here. People running Linux and other OSs on their Macbooks don't make good customers for Apple services going forward.
 
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I think Apple very much does want people to run MacOS - and nothing else - on their hardware. As we keep hearing, the fastest growing, most important income stream for Apple is their services. And these services - iCloud, Music, Apple TV etc - are very much designed to dovetail with their iOS and MacOS walled gardens. iOS is already locked down so that it can only use apps & content purchased through their store, and its not a huge stretch to imagine thats where MacOS may be increasingly heading in the future.

Apple dont charge directly for MacOS but there's a bigger picture here. People running Linux and other OSs on their Macbooks don't make good customers for Apple services going forward.

I don't know about iOS given yesterday's ruling on App Stores.
 
I don't know about iOS given yesterday's ruling on App Stores.
That ruling only allowed a lawsuit from 2011 to actually take place. By the time it is resolved it will be moot, because we will be able to download content of our brains directly to global network, spontaneously create apps with our consciousness without paying developers, and leave the physical world for good with its overheating computers and clumsy keyboards. Apple will probably figure out a way to monetize and overcharge on that too though.
 
If the Windows team thought they could get away with dumping 32 bit support they would.

As it is now they have to maintain Windows on Windows (WOW) layer that intercepts all of the 32 bit calls and file operations and as required calls one or more of their 64 bit equivalents. This especially is an issue for some device drivers and does have a performance hit. Luckily with faster CPUs and bigger memory most users get OK performance on their 32 bit apps running on 64 bit operating system. Still it is kind of a maintenance headache for MSFT OS developers .

That probably is true, but it still points to the fact that Microsoft does listen and serve their customers. When it comes right down to it, I don't need 32 bit on Windows with it superior graphics system as much as I needed it on Mac due to it's weak system. Photo plugins, 3D software, and games all run well on Windows, it is on Mac where I use the less demanding 32 bit counterparts.
 
Buy a nice SSD, chuck it in a USB 3 (UASP) 2.5" case and plug it in when you want to use Linux. Might not be as convenient if you're moving around a lot with your laptop rather than keeping it in one place, but that's the only option. I switched to PC a while back anyway, don't really like the inflexibility of Mac anymore.
 
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I can do something on my current Mac that I cannot do with the new ones.

I could read a CD on my old Mac before the drive broke. Is the removal of that in recent ones also a conspiracy by apple to prevent installing an OS from a disc?


Cost of macOS is baked into the price of every single Mac sold and then some :rolleyes: Exactly the same as a W10 hardware OEM passes the W10 licensing cost to the end user, so does Apple...

Nobody said it isn’t.

Anyone thinking different is simply naïve...

You’ve also missed the point. I never said there is no cost I said you can’t buy it at retail. The claim is that Apple was deliberately blocking Linux from running on new Macs the same way Microsoft did. My point is that if Microsoft did deliberately block Linux, they have a financial incentive to do so: it’s a literal competitor for sales of Windows. macOS is not sold to users - if you’ve got a Mac you’ve already paid for macOS in the cost of the hardware.

Linux doesn’t work with the T2s ssd controller: that’s it. Is the T2 apples “choice” or “fault”? Yes, of course. Does that mean there is a conspiracy to block Linux? No, because there’s zero evidence it’s anything more than a lack of drivers.

But hey all of you keep misreading what I’ve been repeating over and over so you can convince yourselves Apple is out to get you. It’s a good look.
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People running Linux and other OSs on their Macbooks don't make good customers for Apple services going forward.

Then why is Apple Music available for Android? Why does iCloud work on Windows? Why does bootcamp still exist? Why does iCloud have a web app equivalent of the apple “office” apps?
 
I could read a CD on my old Mac before the drive broke. Is the removal of that in recent ones also a conspiracy by apple to prevent installing an OS from a disc?




Nobody said it isn’t.



You’ve also missed the point. I never said there is no cost I said you can’t buy it at retail. The claim is that Apple was deliberately blocking Linux from running on new Macs the same way Microsoft did. My point is that if Microsoft did deliberately block Linux, they have a financial incentive to do so: it’s a literal competitor for sales of Windows. macOS is not sold to users - if you’ve got a Mac you’ve already paid for macOS in the cost of the hardware.

Linux doesn’t work with the T2s ssd controller: that’s it. Is the T2 apples “choice” or “fault”? Yes, of course. Does that mean there is a conspiracy to block Linux? No, because there’s zero evidence it’s anything more than a lack of drivers.

But hey all of you keep misreading what I’ve been repeating over and over so you can convince yourselves Apple is out to get you. It’s a good look.
[doublepost=1557890899][/doublepost]

Then why is Apple Music available for Android? Why does iCloud work on Windows? Why does bootcamp still exist? Why does iCloud have a web app equivalent of the apple “office” apps?

Well we don't know how much longer Bootcamp will exist. As far as the T2 chip is concerned and Apple determine lobbying to prevent third party repair, I would say that yes they are "conspiring" to use your term to make the platform as profitable as possible for themselves, by forcing people to pay for high priced upgrades at the time of sale and forcing them to use Apple for repair.

They also seem to be determined to kill the after market sellers. Not to long ago they worked out a deal with Amazon to reduce third party sellers there.

You seem determined to "defend" Apple at all cost. I think what they are doing is wrong and user unfriendly, and I think it will come back to bite them, but we will see. I can speak for myself and say their practices are the reason I won't buy new or refurbished products from Apple.

And as for Microsoft, the only time I heard about them using secure boot was on their own Surface Devices as they did not want to try and support another operating system other than their own, last I heard they now simple tell people that if they install Linux, they are on their own.
 
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