I am Feeling the Burn.

[Thysanoptera]

You’ve also missed the point. I never said there is no cost I said you can’t buy it at retail. The claim is that Apple was deliberately blocking Linux from running on new Macs the same way Microsoft did. My point is that if Microsoft did deliberately block Linux, they have a financial incentive to do so: it’s a literal competitor for sales of Windows. macOS is not sold to users - if you’ve got a Mac you’ve already paid for macOS in the cost of the hardware.

Ok, when did MS block Linux because I missed that. And also how would they manage that since Windows is just an operating system running on hardware produced by hundreds of companies. There was one mishap by Lenovo in configs with RAIDed drives which spun some conspiracies. Or is it about being unable to run Linux distros included in Microsoft store on Windows 10s? That's the whole point of 10s (or s-mode, whatever they call it now). But even if the device is preloaded with 10s you can dual boot the old fashion way. Or disable s-mode for free if you want the distro from MS store.

If Microsoft had any incentive to steer people away from Linux they wouldn't include Arch, Ubuntu, Kali, Debian, SUSE and others in their own store. How many Linux distros are there in Apple App store?

On the other hand, Apple and only Apple can allow loading Linux on internal drive. They hold all the keys and they ain't sharing. I don't think it is malicious, they just don't care. They have to provide some Windows support in bootcamp, but at least on MBP this is unusable, the drivers are messed up, don't provide half the functionality of what MacOS does. Apple provides bare minimum for some compatibility, but not enough as to make it comfortable in any shape or form for the end user. As for Linux? Who cares, 1% market share or so, support for this is not going to happen, not worth spending a dime on development.

Then why is Apple Music available for Android? Why does iCloud work on Windows? Why does bootcamp still exist? Why does iCloud have a web app equivalent of the apple “office” apps?

Because Apple's future is in services and they don't want to limit it to their own hardware only, that would limit the growth potential and 'shareholder value'.

 

[Stephen.R]

Well we don't know how much longer Bootcamp will exist.

So now it's speculating about dropping support for things that have been supported for <checks> 11 years, as 'evidence' of this apparent conspiracy to prevent Linux booting?

If any of this were a deliberate attempt to prevent it, surely they'd just not allow users to disable the secure boot option.

yes they are "conspiring" to use your term

It's not my term. You claimed that Apple are deliberately preventing Linux booting because they don't want people to use it. The dictionary definition of conspiracy is

a secret plan by a group to do something unlawful or harmful

. My point is that you have no evidence the lack of Linux support is anything more than a lack of support - and as I've said, there are multiple points of evidence to show that it is just a lack of support, rather than a deliberate attempt to prevent Linux on a Mac.

They also seem to be determined to kill the after market sellers.

Sellers of what?

Not to long ago they worked out a deal with Amazon to reduce third party sellers there.

By chance are you referring to when Apple discovered 90% of the "genuine Apple" products sold on Amazon.com were in fact counterfeits? https://www.forbes.com/sites/amitch...one-chargers-on-amazon-are-fake/#7c42da8a5b07

You seem determined to "defend" Apple at all cost.

I would say you "seem" determined to spread a conspiracy theory at all cost. This has nothing to do with whether you agree that Apple can or should prevent Linux on a Mac. For what it's worth I don't think it's worth their time to bother preventing it honestly. But regardless of that - you haven't shown any evidence that this is a deliberate action, and yet you keep insisting it is.

I think what they are doing is wrong and user unfriendly,

Again - you imply that they deliberately set out to prevent you from running Linux. Should all advancements in technology be constrained to using components with device drivers in every single available operating system?

I can speak for myself and say their practices are the reason I won't buy new or refurbished products from Apple.

And that's your choice to make.

as for Microsoft, the only time I heard about them using secure boot

I didn't bring up Microsoft. Someone else gave Microsoft's tactics (blocking Linux) as some kind of "precedent" for what Apple is claimed to have done, and I have repeatedly tried to highlight how the situations are different.

 

[Queen6]

Buy a nice SSD, chuck it in a USB 3 (UASP) 2.5" case and plug it in when you want to use Linux. Might not be as convenient if you're moving around a lot with your laptop rather than keeping it in one place, but that's the only option. I switched to PC a while back anyway, don't really like the inflexibility of Mac anymore.

Thing with Apple is that you don't really have any control over the hardware. To me a computer is hardware, one then chooses the software to be installed. Apple on the other hand produces appliances where choice and option is severely limited, if not completely biased in Apple's favour. Ultimately Apple has full control which is exactly the case we see today with modern Mac's.

I switched to Windows in 2016 for much the same reasons and the poor excuse the MBP currently is...

Q-6

 

[Stephen.R]

Ok, when did MS block Linux because I missed that.

Ask @maflynn, he brought it up. I was simply highlighting tha

I don't know. Remember when MS did something similar with windows 10. I think they relented a bit and you can turn off safe boot. I think in both cases, both MS and Apple were looking to lock out competing operating systems. If apple moves to ARM, I think the Mac will be even more locked down

they wouldn't include Arch, Ubuntu, Kali, Debian, SUSE and others in their own store

This is getting way off topic but that's for WSL. It's the GNU runtime from those distros, specifically without the Linux Kernel (it relies on a compatibility layer in the NT kernel to provide the Linux syscalls. It's also going to be abandoned, as WSLv2 is essentially just VMs. So they may still "provide" those distros, but its still always stuff running on top of Windows 10.

Apple and only Apple can allow loading Linux on internal drive.

Why? Are the Linux kernel developers suddenly incapable of writing device drivers?

 

[mick2]

The point about whether Apple make their MBPs Linux-unfriendly by design or by neglect is really a moot one. As the OP said originally and again some posts ago, the bottom line is that he can't do something on the latest round of MBPs - dual boot Linux & MacOS - that he used to be able to do before, and that's a loss of utility for him.

Others have pointed out that the Apple way involves giving up a degree of control and freedom over ones hardware in comparison to PC hardware. I've suggested that this is a tradeoff; Apple offer an ecosystem of close hardware / OS / services integration but this comes at the cost of reduced freedom & choice over what one can do with ones hardware.

@Stephen.R I don't see that any of this is particularly controversial?

 

[Stephen.R]

is really a moot one

No, it isn't.

he can't do something on the latest round of MBPs - dual boot Linux & MacOS

Yes, he can. He can't boot from the internal SSD. That's a very big distinction. It's like the difference between "My 2018 MBP can't connect to wired ethernet" and "My 2018 MBP doesn't have built in ethernet". The difference is that one means its impossible, one means you need to plug something in, and it will work fine.

Others have pointed out that the Apple way involves giving up a degree of control and freedom over ones hardware in comparison to PC hardware.

Giving up control is irrelevant. This is not about control, it's about a lack of support for the T2 in the Linux kernel.

@Stephen.R I don't see that any of this is particularly controversial?

Who said it's controversial? I said the OP and others are perpetuating conspiracy theories without evidence. People talking **** about Apple without evidence is hardly controversial, it's practically par for the course.

 

[maflynn]

As the OP said originally and again some posts ago, the bottom line is that he can't do something on the latest round of MBPs - dual boot Linux & MacOS

Yep, no matter how others argue it, the OP can run Linux on the internal drive prior to the 2018 MBP and now he can't. The cause, the T2 chip.

We've been getting into deep weeds debating the causes and reasons, but for the OP, its moot as you said because he was willing to give apple nearly 3,000 for a laptop but that laptop no functions like prior models and does not work for his needs.

@Mendota, you may have stated this somewhere, but what distro are you using? As I said, I got a second drive my Thinkpad, and install Linux on that drive (keeping the primary drive for windows) Based on my research, Pop_OS is a good choice for my hardware and so far I've been happy with it

 

[Thysanoptera]

Why? Are the Linux kernel developers suddenly incapable of writing device drivers?

Yes, exactly - they are suddenly incapable of writing a laptop device driver. Based on what? Apple press release or marketing materials? The only way would be to reverse eng AppleSSD.sys from bootcamp, but as to writing it outright - nope.

 

[agaskew]

No, it isn't.


Yes, he can. He can't boot from the internal SSD. That's a very big distinction. It's like the difference between "My 2018 MBP can't connect to wired ethernet" and "My 2018 MBP doesn't have built in ethernet". The difference is that one means its impossible, one means you need to plug something in, and it will work fine.


Giving up control is irrelevant. This is not about control, it's about a lack of support for the T2 in the Linux kernel.


Who said it's controversial? I said the OP and others are perpetuating conspiracy theories without evidence. People talking **** about Apple without evidence is hardly controversial, it's practically par for the course.

It really is about control. You can look at this topic in isolation, or you can consider the trajectory that Apple is moving along with things like the T2 chip. They could have followed everone else along the TPM route, but didn't. The fact that T2 blocks some 3rd party repairs is another indicator, as is glued in batteries, soldered SSDs and RAM, Lightning ports, iMessage and FaceTime, even the Pentalobe screw.

Apple do not want you:

• inside your own hardware
• fixing stuff yourself or going to 3rd parties for repairs
• replacing components
• upgrading
• running anything but MacOS

Even the Bootcamp Windows experience is deliberately inferior, for example forcing use of the discrete GPU only under Windows, which increases heat/throttling and reduces battery life. Caveat emptor.

 

[jerryk]

It really is about control. You can look at this topic in isolation, or you can consider the trajectory that Apple is moving along with things like the T2 chip. They could have followed everone else along the TPM route, but didn't. The fact that T2 blocks some 3rd party repairs is another indicator, as is glued in batteries, soldered SSDs and RAM, Lightning ports, iMessage and FaceTime, even the Pentalobe screw.

Apple do not want you:

• inside your own hardware
• fixing stuff yourself or going to 3rd parties for repairs
• replacing components
• upgrading
• running anything but MacOS

Even the Bootcamp Windows experience is deliberately inferior, for example forcing use of the discrete GPU only under Windows, which increases heat/throttling and reduces battery life. Caveat emptor.

I agree. When you buy a Apple product, you are buying into a largely closed ecosystem. This has been true for a long time and should not surprise anyone. It means their products work well together, and with minimum effort from the user, but you have to stay in the Apple defined box. If you don't want to, or cannot, live in this ecosystem's restriction, don't buy their products.

 

[afir93]

I hear you, although IME Linux on a Macbook was never an especially satisfactory experience in any case; proprietary Broadcom wifi, dodgy soundcard setups (optical i/o issues), proprietary driver code for Touchbar, kludges for Fkey media and screen controls, part-functioning hibernation & power management etc... Sure, you could get Linux running on a Macbook before advent of the T2, but it always felt like a sub optimal experience and a kludge. Just get a decent open platform PC laptop - Dell, Lenovo, Asus etc - and the whole Linux experience improves tenfold.

People like to invoke the BSD/Unix origins of Darwin & the MacOS, but in truth todays Apple have never really been about providing 'open' platforms; their way is all about providing a low-hassle, closed, screwed-down synergy of proprietary hardware & OS - and of course this is both its strength and its weakness. Apple are really not interested in aiding you with being able to use theor devices for anything outside their carefully curated garden.

Yep, that's a great way to put it.

The T2 chip is a great example of an invention that's mostly beneficial as long as you are fine staying within this beautifully decorated, but carefully curated garden of Apple, but can be a hindrance when you (if only partially) leave this garden or do things that Apple doesn't want you to do. There's no doubt that all it's various security features, the enhancements in read/write speeds, HEVC encoding, it's image and audio processing capabilities and everything else are all in large important improvements, but it comes at the cost of some degree of freedom and is one additional hook into the Apple ecosystem.

Is the payoff worth it? Do these benefits justify the inconveniences? For a vast majority of people, yes, certainly. I'm sure Apple has done the math, and the average user probably won't care much either way. But there are cases like OPs where the ends may not justify the sacrifices.

 

[pshufd]

Yep, that's a great way to put it.

The T2 chip is a great example of an invention that's mostly beneficial as long as you are fine staying within this beautifully decorated, but carefully curated garden of Apple, but can be a big hindrance when you (if only partially) leave this garden or do things that Apple doesn't want you to do. There's no doubt that all it's various security features, the enhancements in read/write speeds, HEVC encoding, it's image and audio processing capabilities and everything else are all in large important improvements, but it comes at the cost of some degree of freedom and is one additional hook into the Apple ecosystem.

If I wanted something to run Linux, I'd just haul out one of my old desktops or laptops and slap Linux on it. Linux on a VM generally runs fine for most desktop stuff and some development. Same with Windows.

 

[afir93]

If I wanted something to run Linux, I'd just haul out one of my old desktops or laptops and slap Linux on it. Linux on a VM generally runs fine for most desktop stuff and some development. Same with Windows.

Yes, and so would I, probably. But not everybody's use cases are the same, and OP may have reasons for why this isn't an optimal solution for them.

 

[maflynn]

Why? Are the Linux kernel developers suddenly incapable of writing device drivers?

I would think it would be extremely difficult if not impossible for anybody other then apple. The T2 chip is proprietary and I don't think Apple is going to give any developers access to the inner workings of the T2

 

[jerryk]

If I wanted something to run Linux, I'd just haul out one of my old desktops or laptops and slap Linux on it. Linux on a VM generally runs fine for most desktop stuff and some development. Same with Windows.

Or run it in the cloud. I used to do the old system running Linux thing, but more often than not now, I just spin up a cloud instance.

Obviously this depends on the needs of task done in Linux.

 

[pshufd]

Yes, and so would I, probably. But not everybody's use cases are the same, and OP may have reasons for why this isn't an optimal solution for them.

Gamers on Windows would not want to run in a VM and I get that. And, sure, there are special use cases, but there is so much hardware out there that can run Linux natively. And you can always get a used MacBook Pro pre-T chip if you need it on the internal drive.

 

[Stephen.R]

Yes, exactly - they are suddenly incapable of writing a laptop device driver. Based on what? Apple press release or marketing materials? The only way would be to reverse eng AppleSSD.sys from bootcamp, but as to writing it outright - nope.

I would think it would be extremely difficult if not impossible for anybody other then apple. The T2 chip is proprietary and I don't think Apple is going to give any developers access to the inner workings of the T2

Where exactly do you imagine Linux and the various BSDs got their device drivers for things like Wifi? Go read about the different approaches they took and it’s ultimately down to whether they are worried about being a “clean room” implementation or not.

But sure, keep telling yourself Linux kernel developers don’t reverse engineer device drivers, if that helps you have your little rant.

Lightning ports

$20 says you’d be the first complaining if they’d dropped lightning for USB-c when it came out, because your old accessories wouldn’t work with the new phones.

iMessage and FaceTime

I’d love to hear what you think they should support instead.

fixing stuff yourself or going to 3rd parties for repairs

Better tell that entire network of authorised service centres Apple has disavowed them huh?

 

[MrGunnyPT]

It doesn't affect me as much to be honest.. I am actually running linux off from an external SSD on a 2017 machine.

 

[agaskew]

Where exactly do you imagine Linux and the various BSDs got their device drivers for things like Wifi? Go read about the different approaches they took and it’s ultimately down to whether they are worried about being a “clean room” implementation or not.

But sure, keep telling yourself Linux kernel developers don’t reverse engineer device drivers, if that helps you have your little rant.




$20 says you’d be the first complaining if they’d dropped lightning for USB-c when it came out, because your old accessories wouldn’t work with the new phones.




I’d love to hear what you think they should support instead.


Better tell that entire network of authorised service centres Apple has disavowed them huh?

You've missed the point. If Apple didn't invent their own non standard stuff like Lightning or iMessage/Facetime in the first place, these types of issues wouldn't exist. It's Apple's strategy.

As for the repair point, there is an entire "right to repair" thing going on for a start.

If you like Apple's offerings, more power to you, enjoy. They are a near closed eco system that some folks love.

 

[Stephen.R]

You've missed the point. If Apple didn't invent their own non standard stuff like Lightning or iMessage/Facetime in the first place, these types of issues wouldn't exist. It's Apple's strategy.

If apple didn’t invent things we’d have no devices to use at all.

Nice segue to avoid the hard questions when you just want to whine, btw.

 

[maflynn]

But sure, keep telling yourself Linux kernel developers don’t reverse engineer device drivers, if that helps you have your little rant.

I'm not the one bending over backwards trying to defend an unattainable point. The OP stated what does and doesn't work for him, Apple that made the change and his next machine is his decision.

I'm out of this thread, you do what you want, and I'll just move on, as the OP no doubt did

 

[Stephen.R]

'm not the one bending over backwards trying to defend an unattainable point.

I’ve yet to see any evidence of the so called “deliberate” blocking of Linux so there’s no bending here mate.

 

[Thysanoptera]

Where exactly do you imagine Linux and the various BSDs got their device drivers for things like Wifi?

From Realtek, Intel, Broadcom, Qualcom etc. The few chipsets that were missing drivers from the manufacturer and had to be reverse engineered still had a foundation of a device following known standards and source code of a driver for similar hardware. About T2 you know nothing, zilch, nada. Good luck reversing it.

 

[Stephen.R]

From Realtek, Intel, Broadcom, Qualcom etc

There’s an awful lot of black (reverse engineered) on https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_open-source_wireless_drivers, particularly when you look under the BSDs.

But at least you’re admitting it’s just a driver issue.

I’ll wait with baited breath for your complaints about all the hundreds of thousands of other devices out there that don’t work properly due to lack of drivers on Linux.

 

[Thysanoptera]

I’ll wait with baited breath for your complaints about all the hundreds of thousands of other devices out there that don’t work properly due to lack of drivers on Linux.

You'd better call an ambulance with CPR equipment then because it will be a while. I don't complain, as a Mac Pro user, that's practically a hackintosh by now, I earned a P.H.D in Apple's shenanigans. Luckily there is a large community around the Pro that looks for solutions rather than blaming Microsoft every time Apple takes something away or outright blocks some functionality on cheesegrater.