I hate the Font, am I the only one?

Discussion in 'OS X El Capitan (10.11)' started by kaans, Sep 30, 2015.

  1. kaans macrumors member

    kaans

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2014
    #1
    The previous font sucked at regular resolutions, yet it was thick, crisp and readable at retina, got a 4K monitor just for that retina goodness

    The new font is thin at retina, it's almost like I'm using a non-retina monitor, I hate it

    Am I the only one?

    There was always a hord of new font haters, yet with this font, I feel like I'm the only one
     
  2. wubsylol macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2014
    #2
    I'm finding that very small text can look horrendous on non-retina, as though the smoothing effect on the font is melding into the colour behind it and looking like a mess
     
  3. kaans thread starter macrumors member

    kaans

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2014
    #3
    Sad to hear, the non-retina rendering was already pretty bad

    I use a loupe app to check/verify the rendering, previously the retina detail was easily noticeable, but currently, these thin fonts are pretty pixellated at retina too

    It's like the non-font-smoothed version of the older font, yet it's smoothed (the non-font smoothed version of this font is even worse)

    Is there a non-hacky way to change the system font?
     
  4. fisherking macrumors 601

    fisherking

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2010
    Location:
    ny somewhere
    #4
    give it time, you'll get used to it, and there will be other things to distract you ;)... since it is what it is. have you tried switching the 'lcd font smoothing' option in system preferences? (just curious...)
     
  5. kaans thread starter macrumors member

    kaans

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2014
    #5
    Indeed time heals most wounds, but from experience, I'm pretty sure I will always appreciate the old thicker font more, yet get used to the new one as you predicted
    Apple made me very font aware

    I tried various different FontSmoothing levels, can't differentiate different levels well with this new font, I currently have it at the default on
     
  6. Scary Spice macrumors regular

    Scary Spice

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    Jul 31, 2015
    Location:
    British Columbia
    #6
    I'm retina only, and I love the font in 10.10. It seems modern, pleasant, and super readable.

    The San Francisco font looks horrible, Atari 1040ST-like. Sometimes its effect fades to the background, but in some apps like Numbers, its all I focus on.

    I hope Jonny quickly grows tired of it like I have!
     
  7. Tatsh macrumors member

    Tatsh

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    Jan 28, 2011
  8. MacGizmo macrumors 6502a

    MacGizmo

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    Apr 27, 2003
    Location:
    Arizona
    #8
    Fonts look so bad under Yosemite and El Capitan on non-retina Macs that I'm tempted to buy a new iMac just to fix the problem. ;)
     
  9. kaans thread starter macrumors member

    kaans

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2014
    #9
    Well in that case make sure you stay on Yosemite :)

    El Capitan was extremely high praised by the media, I just went ahead with the upgrade without much thinking, but honestly I can't notice any improvements, it's just the changed font for me

    The linked github method is pretty interesting, it's also amazing that we don't get any choice natively
     
  10. leman macrumors 604

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2008
    #10
    I like new new font better, but its a thing of taste obviously.

    System font are far from trivial, because you need to ensure that the font metric fits the common size of the buttons/panels found in the UI. This means that when you change the font, you also need to make micro-adjustments to how the rest of the UI looks. For a company like Apple who values design in general and typography in particular, offering choice of fonts ultimately means lowering their design standards.
     
  11. maflynn Moderator

    maflynn

    Staff Member

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    May 3, 2009
    Location:
    Boston
    #11
    I think fonts in general have been too small, I always have to boost the zoom in MS Word or Excel to make it readable.
     
  12. kaans thread starter macrumors member

    kaans

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2014
    #12
    I wonder if a change to general font rendering have also been made

    Using Chrome, all of the fonts started seeming thin to me

    I've tried various FontSmoothing settings, I reset Chrome every time I make a change, I used to be able to differentiate different FontSmoothing levels, yet with El Capitan, I can't differentiate them

    I also inspect the fonts with "Zoom It" / a loupe app, all of the FontSmoothing levels seem the same, fonts seem thinner, I can't see the retina detail, I can easily see the pixels around characters

    Before making the retina upgrade, I had a problem where I couldn't focus to the texts (especially black on white), whenever I looked at texts, my focus went deeper than the screen, it's hard to describe but it's a form of confusion, I even started wondering whether I need a new eye prescription although my eye-exam was fairly recent and thorough - anyway - the retina upgrade prevented this issue previously, crisp fonts prevented the issue, I concluded that it was the font rendering all along

    Now with El Capitan, this issue is back

    Since the issue isn't quantifiable and I don't have another system to compare things to, I can't verify the issue and summarise the issue well, but overall, not just the system fonts, but I seem to hate the general font rendering too, it seems changed
     
  13. MacGizmo macrumors 6502a

    MacGizmo

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    Arizona
    #13
    I don't mind the font itself. But when I look at the same web page on a 1-year-old non-retina iMac and a 5K Retina iMac, the difference in readability is staggering. Yosemite and El Capitan were clearly made for super high-res screens.
     
  14. Tatsh macrumors member

    Tatsh

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2011
    #14
    The package was updated for El Capitan https://github.com/schreiberstein/lucidagrandeelcapitan

    And yes, creating a font for an OS like OS X is not trivial. This is why the author(s) of lucidagrandeelcapitan has spent a lot of time preparing the Lucida Grande font with different weights to ensure things do not look weird. As the owner of two Dell U3014s (non-retina 2K monitors) connected to my Mac Pro I am very appreciative. But even on my MacBook Pro I still think Lucida Grande is way better.

    It is very difficult to read a font like Helvetica (straight font e.g Arial, San Francisco) in small sizes on a non-high DPI display, especially for GUI interactions. I also like being able to distinguish I from lower-case L.

    On iOS when jailbroken I use the Oxygen font for I/l problem too. And I hate the obsession Apple has with thin fonts anyway. https://www.google.com/fonts/specimen/Oxygen

    Even this website sticks to Verdana by default. Amazon uses Verdana by default and Helvetica-like on headers and larger fonts. Helvetica and friends were designed for large print (like ads; almost all ads use the font).
     
  15. debfrommpls macrumors newbie

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    Dec 20, 2015
    #15
     
  16. debfrommpls macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2015
    #16
    for all you people who hate this font as much as I do, you must call Apple Care and speak up. The rep told me that is the only way something will be done about it because the engineers do not read these blogs--they only respond to Apple Care complaints that are constant and consistent....please, everyone, call and speak up.

    El Capitan screwed up by external drive and I can't go back to an earlier operating system. My eyes are ever so bothered by this and nothing helps.
     
  17. debfrommpls macrumors newbie

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    Dec 20, 2015
    #17
    Have been working with several advisors on this issue and have tried every possible setting change in displays, accessibility, etc and nothing whatsoever helps...so frustrating.
     
  18. debfrommpls macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2015
    #18
    No--you do not get used to it. Are only reminded how eye irritating it is overtime you pick up your iPhone or retina iPad. Should have been warned that a non retina screen would be dramatically impacted.

    If enough people complain by Calling Apple Care, they will be forced to fix the problem. Please call Apple Care.
     
  19. fisherking macrumors 601

    fisherking

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    Jul 16, 2010
    Location:
    ny somewhere
    #19
    apple isn't going to change anything because a handful of people complain about something. most macusers just use their computers, they don't focus on the details; they go online, write a document, surf. and get on with their day.

    personally, i like the font, and am (so far) loving 10.11. so, seriously, the options are: try a hack, buy an older mac and not update...or adapt.
     
  20. KALLT macrumors 601

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2008
    #20
    San Francisco is optimised for readability and has more variants for different text sizes and use cases. This makes it superior to Helvetica Neue, whether you like its aesthetics or not. That being said, Apple is deploying smaller text sizes overall and the changes with San Francisco still do not hold up against a crude typeface like Lucida Grande. It’s the much better interface typeface in my opinion and it’s on of the reasons why I still enjoy Mavericks more.

    Chrome has its own font renderer. It is likely a change in Chrome then, or a bug.
     
  21. debfrommpls macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2015
    #21
    i am trying to adapt, but it really bothers my eyes. I had no problems before and cannot go back because my backups are on a now defunct external drive which was just fine until I upgraded from Mt Lion to El Capitan. My data is in El Capitan and I cannot go back to Mt. Lion. I, maybe unlike you, use my computer a lot. The size does not bother me--it's all the distortion. A major loss of clarity is what is causing the problem--too much bright lights are something. Not sure what it is exactly, only that it's very noticeably different. Kind of like a retina iPad vs the non retina.
     
  22. fisherking macrumors 601

    fisherking

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2010
    Location:
    ny somewhere
    #22
    a couple of things: check out flux https://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/37261/f-lux
    great for evening, night. completely changed my relationship with my macbook pro. also, i LIVE on my mac (sadly), am on it 12 hours a day (more or less). AND i wear crazy thick glasses. but am loving 10.11 (and the 13" retina screen). i even bumped up the resolution...
     
  23. KALLT macrumors 601

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    Sep 23, 2008
    #23
    You can still go back. It just requires a little more effort.
     
  24. debfrommpls macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2015
    #24
    i appreciate the suggestions. BTW...I have an iMac non retina screen from 2010.

    How do I go back if all my data is in El Capitan and my computer would then be in Mt Lion? Obviously, you people are far more tech savvy then I. I just know enough to be dangerous.
     
  25. debfrommpls macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2015
    #25
    Have great eyes, by the way, but the screen makes me feel as if I need to see an eye dr.
     

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