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Counterfit said:
MacNut: This is FAR FAR FAR from the worst brawl ever in pro sports. I've seen a (very short) clip of some NHL players going at it with fans in the stands. Yes, NHL players. They had to go through a damned barrier to get in there.
From the Sports Illustrated website, a list of many of the worst brawls in American Proffessional sports:
Dec. 23, 1979
Boston Bruins forward Stan Jonathan was hit in the face by an object thrown by a fan, and right wing Terry O'Reilly was harassed by a stick-wielding fan at the end of a 4-3 victory at the New York Rangers. Several Boston players, including O'Reilly and Mike Milbury, went into the stands to fight with spectators. Milbury removed a shoe from a fan and beat him with it.
This isn't the clip I remember seeing, as I remember the playing having a green and white jersey.

I like seeing stuff like this though:
Sept. 28, 1995
Cubs reliever Randy Myers was charged by a spectator who ran out of the stands at Wrigley Field. Myers saw the man coming, dropped his glove and knocked him down with his forearm.
Stupid (drunk?) person gets their ass beat :D

And someone mentioned snowballs at an NFL game:
Dec. 23, 1995
Fans at Giants Stadium hurled dozens of snowballs at the Chargers' sideline, interrupting a game between San Diego and New York. One snowball knocked San Diego equipment manager Sid Brooks unconscious.
Nov. 24, 1999
Oakland Raiders were pelted with snowballs, some spiked with batteries, at Denver's Mile High Stadium. Charles Woodson allegedly threw a snowball that struck a female fan in the face, and Lincoln Kennedy went after a fan who hit him in the face with a snowball.
I notice that a vast majority of these incidents were sparked by fans being stupid.

LordBlackadder said:
The fans can be expected to get a bit unruly at times
Well, that's a great attitude to have eh? They're fans! They paid some good money! Let them get drunk and act like stupid little monekys. :rolleyes:
 
Counterfit said:
Well, that's a great attitude to have eh? They're fans! They paid some good money! Let them get drunk and act like stupid little monekys. :rolleyes:

It's not an attitude, it's pragmatism. Putting tens of thousands of people together with beer breeds this kind of behavior from the less mature. To fail to accept this as a reality is naive and could have negative implications with regards to security. People will get drunk at sporting events and occasionally do immensly stupid things. Most people accept that this is the case, yet they do not ban drinking because the vast majority can restain themselves from drunken feats of idiocy.

And of course it is unacceptable! Those people are real knuckledraggers, don't get me wrong. But the fact that their behavior is outragously simian does not in any way change its likelyhood. :(

In case I have failed to make myself clear, I have adopted a disapprobatory stance with regards to the fan's behavior. :D
 
Counterfit said:
From the Sports Illustrated website, a list of many of the worst brawls in American Proffessional sports: This isn't the clip I remember seeing, as I remember the playing having a green and white jersey.

I remember the Bruins brawl as a kid. O'Reilly and Johnathan are not exactly two guys who I would want to tangle with, especially when you consider that fighting was very much a part of the game back then and guys really knew how to throw.

There was a junior hockey incident maybe 10-12 years ago that involved a team from Swift Current (WHL). Anyways, somebody tossed a beer into the players bench and what transpired next was an absolutely wicked stick swinging incident involving 7-8 players and who knows how many drunks.
 
QCassidy352 said:
Said I would stay away, but clearly I lied! :p
Never say "never." :D
QCassidy352 said:
You're right - regardless of the rights of players as private citizens, they do have a different set of rules to follow as players. However, an employer can't necessarily make an employee give up all legal rights as a condition of employment. Not sure how that comes in to play here but I suppose one could make the case that the right to defend oneself is not one that the NBA, or any employer, can demand be given up as a condition of employment. I don't know what the legal ground is like there (though I suspect that you are right and that is a condition that the NBA can impose seeing as companies get away with drug testing employees).

But, my belief is still that Stern is being unreasonable, even if he is on solid legal ground. I found it especially bad that Stern admitted to taking Artest's "history" in to account when making his decision. That doesn't seem appropriate to me. He's been punished for his poor behavior when deserved in the past. Considering it here just seems unfair - now he's in effect being punished a second time for past behavior.

(Also @ Counterfit) I don't believe an employer can override an individual's state given rights. I'm not a lawyer, but I just think a judge would have a tough time calling what Artest did "self defense" by its legal definition. I believe there is some notion of 'imminent danger' and 'fear for your own safety' in there somewhere. If a fan accosted a player on the court wielding a knife and the player reacted violently and hurt that fan, I don't think anyone, including the NBA honchos, would hold that against the player. I would bet in a situation like that, the entire league would stand by the player.

I don't really have a strong opinion on how appropriate it is to take Artest's past history into account when handing down punishment. As you said, he "paid his dues" for those infractions already. In the courts, some places have "3 strikes" laws that mandate long sentences for repeat offenders, but as I said earlier, punishment from the NBA has nothing to do with 'criminal' behavior in the legal sense. On the other hand, I don't think it's uncommon for employee handbooks to state that repeated infractions to the company rules can result in increasingly severe disciplinary actions on the part of the company. I just dunno . . .
 
Lord Blackadder said:
It's not an attitude, it's pragmatism. Putting tens of thousands of people together with beer breeds this kind of behavior from the less mature. To fail to accept this as a reality is naive and could have negative implications with regards to security. People will get drunk at sporting events and occasionally do immensly stupid things. Most people accept that this is the case, yet they do not ban drinking because the vast majority can restain themselves from drunken feats of idiocy.

And of course it is unacceptable! Those people are real knuckledraggers, don't get me wrong. But the fact that their behavior is outragously simian does not in any way change its likelyhood. :(
You do know there's something that can be done about it right? It's not like people getting drunk as a sporting event is unavoidable. It's a relatively simple thing called not selling alcohol at sporting events :rolleyes:
 
munkle said:
A bit late to the thread...but here's a good downloadable clip of the fight, with a breakdown of the fight (WMV format).

Thank you for posting the link. That was the first time that I had to see the entire incident. It was worse that I had heard. Didn't really seem that security was at all on top of the situation. Maybe system wide changes will stop this from ever happening again.

Twenty years ago it was gentleman that played the game. Where are they now?
 
Counterfit said:
You do know there's something that can be done about it right? It's not like people getting drunk as a sporting event is unavoidable. It's a relatively simple thing called not selling alcohol at sporting events :rolleyes:

That would go over about as well as it did the first time back in 1920. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

As long as they do sell alcohol at sporting events there will be occasional incidents like this one. Cutting beer sales hits venues in the pocketbook bigtime, and thus they will resist doing it. The only way that alcohol could end up being banned is if the frequency of riots jumped fivefold, making it a total and constant embarrasment for the league who could not explain it away as being a somewhat isloated incident. But don't hold your breath.
 
wdlove said:
Thank you for posting the link. That was the first time that I had to see the entire incident. It was worse that I had heard. Didn't really seem that security was at all on top of the situation. Maybe system wide changes will stop this from ever happening again.

Twenty years ago it was gentleman that played the game. Where are they now?

I agree this link was great to get a perspective on riot. I wonder what the rules say about lying on the scoring table? The fan was wrong is throwing a drink at Artest, but Artest was just as wrong (if not worse for charging into the stands. His actions lead to a decay of the situation for the players and fans alike.

The NBA is spineless IMO. They should ban Detroit and Indiana from any further play this year. Detroit for the fans behavior, and Indiana for the players behavior. That would have sent a strong message to all teams and their fans in the NBL, that this will not be tolerated. This is the same actions used in the past by High School leagues with a similar situation.
 
Lord Blackadder said:
That would go over about as well as it did the first time back in 1920. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

As long as they do sell alcohol at sporting events there will be occasional incidents like this one. Cutting beer sales hits venues in the pocketbook bigtime, and thus they will resist doing it. The only way that alcohol could end up being banned is if the frequency of riots jumped fivefold, making it a total and constant embarrasment for the league who could not explain it away as being a somewhat isloated incident. But don't hold your breath.

Yeah, but after one fan was severely hurt during a NHL game - the fans can not move to or from their seats while the puck in in play. Maybe increasing the cost of beers by $2 or $3 (with that money going towards charity).
 
Chip NoVaMac said:
Yeah, but after one fan was severely hurt during a NHL game - the fans can not move to or from their seats while the puck in in play. Maybe increasing the cost of beers by $2 or $3 (with that money going towards charity).

That's the capitalist's answer to a problem - don't "restrict", just increase the cost. Might be a good idea. I don't think a complete alcohol ban would be effective (or sustainable), but making it more expensive to drink might keep people from having "one too many".
 
Lord Blackadder said:
That's the capitalist's answer to a problem - don't "restrict", just increase the cost. Might be a good idea. I don't think a complete alcohol ban would be effective (or sustainable), but making it more expensive to drink might keep people from having "one too many".

That was my point. Someone else made mention of eating in to the profits of the arena. I was looking for a solution that did not decrease the profits, but was also socially responsible at the same time.
 
The person who identified Green from videotape of the fracas was Oakland County Prosecutor David Gorcyca. The prosecutor, who is leading the investigation of the case, said he is Green's former neighbor from the time both lived in Royal Oak.

Gorcyca, who said investigators need to interview more witnesses before any charges would be filed, said most charges emanating from the fracas are likely to be misdemeanors.

The only exception, he said, might involve the unknown person who tossed a chair at the players.
Look's like everybody but the chair thrower will get away with what could have been more serious felony charges.

Which means the civil charges will probably get quite ugly.
 
Mav451 said:
Heck, I know everyone hates Lakers, and I'll agree with that b/c I hate the bandwagon fans they induce.

Speak for yourself! I'm a diehard Lakers fan who's followed them since I was eight years old. And I was still a fan about twelve years ago when their best scorer was Sedale Threatt. I understand why other fans would think that way, since I similarly get tired of the Yankees. And I get annoyed at the bandwagoners that hop on once the playoffs start, but can't recognize the faces of the bench players.

Kindly rephrase your statement as "Like most NBA fans, I hate the Lakers." That's the proper mark of respect! :cool:

BTW, I think it's probably San Antonio's year again. A finals matchup with Detroit seems almost inevitable now.
 
Sun Baked said:
Look's like everybody but the chair thrower will get away with what could have been more serious felony charges.

Which means the civil charges will probably get quite ugly.

Actually NBC was plaster that mug all over the Today Show this morning.
 
This is the best take on this issue that I have read, very thoughtful, calm and fact based.


A friend called me on Tuesday.
He works in what he calls "real news" television, covering politics and tragedies. He*considers the term "sports journalist" an oxymoron. Sports, he says, doesn't deserve*journalism.

The next time you watch the riot video, watch closely and use your brain.
The sarcasm dripped from his voice like Thanksgiving gravy as he said:*"Well, ESPN finally has its 9/11."

As offensive as that might sound, he has a point: Since Friday night's brawl in Detroit, sports media outlets have competed like so many out-of-control Ron Artests to*convince the world that*IT HAS ENDED!*Sports will NEVER BE THE SAME because of the SHOCKING VIOLENCE THAT TURNED A GAME INTO A RIOT!!!

I wonder: Are we telling people what they want to believe?
Or:*Are*people overreacting because we in the media are?
Or:*Do the video images simply speak -- or scream -- for*themselves?

Funny, but "real news" networks have stooped to run with this story, too.*Of the 1,466 times I've seen the RIOT*video, I believe six or seven were even on The Weather Channel. That's because this video is what producers call*"great television."*It's a fast, furious flurry of eye-bites that shock and amaze*viewers who are*desperate to be shocked and amazed.

I'm still not tired of watching it.
Yet the more I watch it, the less I see.

Forgive me for pointing this out,*but the death toll was zero. Not one player or fan was seriously injured.*Yes, this was a black eye for the NBA. But I couldn't see a single split lip.*A "dark day" for this league could have been so much darker.

Just this once, try watching*the RIOT video with your*brain instead of just your wide eyes.

Ben Wallace's two-hand shove certainly qualifies as violent, yet his palms were open and he didn't aim at Artest's face.*Hockey players would laugh at such patty-cake.*Earlier in his career, Artest might have returned fire with his fists --- and*I'm not sure my money would be on Wallace in that fight. He's two inches taller, but*gives away 10 pounds to Artest, who was taught to box by his father, a Golden Gloves champ.

But Artest occasionally shows signs of maturity. He*backpedaled all the way to the scorer's table, for example, because*trading punches with an enraged Wallace wasn't worth it. Artest is at least smart enough to know the league office was itching for an excuse to punish him after he told the media*he needed a month or two off to promote the rap album he produced. And after all, Artest's Pacers were only 45.9 seconds away from humiliating the defending champions on their home court.

But he couldn't simply follow his instincts all the way back to the Pacers' bench. No, he had to grandstand by lying back on the scorer's table with his hands clasped behind his head and his legs crossed. His body language said: "I'm just going to chill here on this table while you sorry losers try to calm down that chump Wallace."

Artest not only was taunting Wallace, but every Pistons fan still in the building. In effect, he was turning himself into a wrestling villain, provoking every nut in the stands. If Artest had merely sauntered*back to his bench,*it's highly unlikely the WORLD WOULD HAVE ENDED.

But some guy sitting a*section away from Artest pulled off a near-miraculous*feat. From 60 or 70 feet away, this guy underhanded a*cup that landed smack*in the middle of Artest's chest.*If you give that guy 100 cups from that distance, he couldn't hit Artest in the chest more than two or three times, if that. If he had missed this time,*it's highly unlikely that SPORTS WILL NEVER BE THE SAME.

But Artest had placed his pride on center stage. And, even though the cup was almost empty by the time it reached him,*the embarrassment of getting nailed pulled Artest's trigger. Quicker than you can say "see you in court," he was charging up into the stands.

Obviously, nothing good can happen to an athlete who goes into the stands after a fan.

Artest didn't show restraint in hawking CDs -- but perhaps he did show some restraint during the riot.
And obviously, the solution here is to beef up courtside security. That way,*Artest and other players could control themselves because they have a reasonable alternative. All they would have to do is point out*the cup-thrower.*Then security guards could*escort the fan out of the arena and perhaps the home team could*take away his season tickets, if he has them.

But as an*NBA general manager in another city told me: "Right now, that wouldn't work for us because that retired 65-year-old female security guard we have sitting behind the visitors' bench wouldn't have much of a chance against a drunk fan. This isn't the NFL. We don't have the bouncers they have."
They might now.

Yet in this case, Artest had no idea who threw the cup. He went flying by the guy who appeared to have thrown it and terrorized*another poor soul*who was merely jumping up and down and celebrating the direct hit. And here's a lost*point:*Though Artest pushed*the innocent fan, HE DID NOT*STRIKE HIM.

Wes Wilcox, an advance scout for the Cavaliers, was watching from his courtside seat. Wilcox told the Cleveland Plain Dealer: "Artest did a good job of keeping his composure."

By his rock-headed, short-fused standards, Artest certainly did. But most fans want to believe Artest has a screw loose, and they automatically assume the worst. If this incident had involved any Pacer other than Artest, the reaction wouldn't have been nearly as*nuclear.

Same with Terrell Owens and the "Desperate Housewives" skit.

Yet now,*Artest is a wrestling villain caught in the middle of an Artest-hating crowd. What if a fan had pulled a knife or gun? Don't tell me some*Artest-hater at the Palace wasn't*armed.

And let me tell you: I hear from many fans who sound crazier than any athlete I've covered.

Yet Artest appeared to believe the fan who was*screaming, "It wasn't me!" He tried to*back off, but*so many hostile fans were trying either to restrain him or attack him that he was momentarily stuck. That's why you couldn't condemn teammate Stephen Jackson for rushing to his rescue.

Jackson is known as a loyal-to-the-death teammate who will go to any means to defend his team's stars.

But of course, two players in the stands means double jeopardy -- especially when Jackson can be as emotionally incendiary as Artest. As the GM said: "You can get away with having one of those guys on your team. But not two."

And just as Jackson swooped in, another fan threw a full beer right in Artest's face. That appeared to send Jackson completely over the edge, though he was restrained from pummeling the beer-thrower. Meanwhile, the fan who initially appeared to have thrown the cup at Artest*had grabbed him*from behind. One moment, this guy was*trying to pull Artest away. The next, he was slugging Artest in the back of the head.

Only then did Artest*throw the ONLY PUNCH HE THREW IN THE STANDS. Only as the fan lost his balance and fell beneath Artest did he*fire one quick, tentative,*downward jab. Artest's*body language said: "I know I shouldn't be up here and that I definitely shouldn't be throwing a punch at a fan."

Moments later, Artest was safely back on the court. Or so he thought.

As he walked toward the bench, here came another fan in a Pistons jersey. The guy did a little Ali shuffle and appeared ready to rumble. And Artest immediately fired a hard, straight right that appeared to land on the guy's jaw. It's possible the fan partially blocked it. But here came the most amazing moment of the night.

The guy didn't flinch or teeter. He just looked at Artest as if to say: "That all you got?"

It's also possible this fan was feeling no pain. But Artest clocked him again as the fan's buddy tackled Artest around the legs.

When fans are on the court, they're fair game -- players have to defend themselves.
I do not*blame Artest*for blasting the fan who challenged him. Under the near-riot circumstances, any fan who crosses the line and enters the court should have been*fair game for the players. Again, how could Artest know the guy's sanity or alcohol level?

No, Artest was right to swing first, ask questions later.

I can't blame*Jermaine O'Neal, either. In the night's most sensational video scene,*O'Neal got a running start*and tried to deliver a blow that could have rivaled the near 'kill' shot with which Kermit Washington once*struck Rudy Tomjanovich. Fortunately, O'Neal lost his footing and some of his leverage as he landed his haymaker upside the head of what appeared to be the fan who had tackled Artest.

But again, this happened ON THE COURT. Fair game.

Through this all, I couldn't see a single security guard or policeman on the video.*The Pistons should be ashamed.

And so should anyone in or out of the media who characterizes what happened in the stands as "the lowest moment in American spectator sports." I was at Wrigley Field the night five years ago when a fan swiped the cap of Dodgers' catcher Chad Kreuter, who was sitting in the bullpen.*Krueter hopped over the wall and chased him. Soon, six or seven Dodgers were trading punches with four or five fans. Blood was spilled.

That was much worse than this. But that was some player named*Kreuter, lost amid*distant, fuzzy video.

After*a father and son attacked Kansas City first-base coach Tom Gamboa at what was then Comiskey Park in Chicago, many baseball players said that any fan who enters the field during a game will*take*his life in his hands. In these post-9/11 times, the same should hold for NBA games.

But please don't let any of these facts ruin your RIOT video
 
paulypants said:
The fans should never get involved with the players the way they did last night. However, moreso, players being payed what they are to play the game should act like the "professionals" that they claim to be, unfortunately most of these guys are primitive street thugs who pretend to be professional, sure they can play a game well, but beyond that their mental capacity does not lend itself to determining the common sense in what is right and what is wrong, I'm surprised none of them grabbed a gat, hate to put it this way but they prove my point time after time in a myriad of arenas, strengthening their own stereotypes cause it's "cool" to act like a gangsta...

go easy on the racial sterotyping there fella...

we had a similar stituation a few years back when a football (soccer) player, Eric Cantona, did a flying kick into the stands at a fan and the smacked him. this was because the fan ran down about 14 rows to the edge of the pitch and told him to f**k off back to france and other such obsenities. The player was a genius, but had a real temper.

i must say I'm on his side as the fan went out of his way to abuse him, and racially at that. Cantona got something like a 10 month ban and many hours community service for his part.
 
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