I really like the new MP

Discussion in 'Mac Pro' started by dollystereo, Jul 11, 2013.

  1. dollystereo macrumors 6502a

    dollystereo

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    #1
    Just that, I am tired to hear so much complaining, I really enjoy the new design.
    I hope they throw a version with dual CPU anyway, and with small video cards. (I dont care about gfx performance, only math crunching). So I can trade my HP Z820 for one of those. (fedora is not osx)
     
  2. Dreamliner330 macrumors 6502a

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    #2
    I'm just not a fan of Apples not-upgradable direction they seem to be taking with everything.
     
  3. chabig macrumors 68040

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  4. Tesselator, Jul 11, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2013

    Tesselator macrumors 601

    Tesselator

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    #4
    I have mixed feelings about the new machine - mostly due to the information they are NOT telling us - such as price and config options.

    I wanna know if there will be a second PCIe SSD option.
    I wanna know if there will only be 12-cores and just various speeds.
    I wanna know if there will be 6 or 8 core models available.
    I wanna know what all the GPU options will be.
    Will it be all the same GPUs with just various amounts of VRAM or will there be entirely different models?
    I wanna know what the price points for the various configurations are going to be.
    I wanna know how easy it'll be to swap out (upgrade) the CPU. ​

    So much of my satisfaction potential balances on the price points that it's very difficult to be either optimistic or pessimistic about the MP6,1 right now.

    If I were to assume that a 12core (2.4GHz to 2.8GHz) with dual 2GB GPUs and like 4GB RAM with the 256GB SSD option would sell for right around $2k (± $100) then the new MP6,1 is a pretty exciting machine IMO! If however the same is to be $3k then I'm going to scuff my heals, fold my arms, sneer, and build a 6-core 4.5GHz Hackintosh.

    If price and attainment were excluded from the equation and I were to consider the design alone then I have many praises and only a few gripes. All the gripes have seemingly simple existing solutions even though not all have been production tested. Even so common sense would seem to assure stability in all - and like I say there's only a couple.

    I completely understand the OP when he says he's "tired to hear so much complaining"! Especially given that nearly 100% of it is just ignorant stupidity from users who actually can't (or haven't bothered to) count past one and certainly show an inability to add or subtract any numbers at all. While I can see the misconceptions the complaints arise from they remain utterly ludicrous IMO. Which of course makes reading and considering them all the more tiring - and I do expect to consider what others have to say without feeling that I'm rehashing for the umpteenth time an argument arisen from a complete lack of any kind of understanding or logical thought. Maybe I'm expecting too much? Maybe the OP is too?

    <shrug>
     
  5. dollystereo thread starter macrumors 6502a

    dollystereo

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    #5
    I think many users here don't really need or would buy a Mac Pro.
    I think this machine could really find his spot in many professional applications from video, number crunching, photo, etc...
    It's a very unique machine, let's wait for the price and specs. Apple could keep the tower for some time, for the complainers (just update the internals).
     
  6. deconstruct60 macrumors 604

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    Mar 10, 2009
    #6
    Not if they follow standard Apple operating procedure. "The king is dead, long live the king" means that when the new version of a product comes out the old one is discontinued. If this have been the "Mac Pro T" or some other new name variant then perhaps. But if you go to

    http://www.apple.com/macpro/

    you are redirected to

    http://www.apple.com/mac-pro/

    By pulling down the marketing pages for the old Mac Pro, Apple is bluntly indicating that the old product is going to stop. Folks who need advance notice to purchase the current one have it. If the new one doesn't ship till late Oct or early Nov folks would have had about 5-6 months of notice.

    Apple will continue to sell refurbs for at least a couple of years. But when the new Mac Pro ships the old one will stop new shipments.

    Folks can have all the temper tantrums they want it isn't going to change the course. It never was the complainers that mattered most. It was and is the new model buyers. There is a significant segment of folks who complain alot but don't buy new Mac Pro ( refurb, used; yes. Or squat on current ones for 8-10 years. New; no. ). There is little incentive to keep an old model around from them, because they aren't buying anyway.
     
  7. deconstruct60 macrumors 604

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    #7
    Apple's web page for new Mac Pro clearly says in the "processor segment".

    " Up to 12 cores".

    So it is extremely unlikely there will only be 12 cores. There is zero reason for the "up to" if there is only 12.

    The more telling question is why there would not be? To hit a 2000-2,600 price point they'd have to a 6 core option based on previous pricing structures for the Mac Pro.


    Again web page clearly says. "up to 7 TFLOPs" and "up to 6GB VRAM". Sure cranking down the VRAM to fewer memory channels would drop the TFLOPs but more likely to hit lower price points this too will be a variance on GPUs. The previous Mac Pros and current iMacs all vary by GPU along with price points. What rationale would Apple have for deviating from the pricing/configu model they have used for last 10+ years ?


    A 12 core Xeon E5 v2 going to cost in the $1600-2200 range all by itself. The likelihood that Apple, or any one else, is going to ship a $2K system with one of those is about zero. You are just setting pricing expectations up for failure.
     
  8. brand macrumors 601

    brand

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    #8
    I'm not sure why you think Apple would tell you that since the CPU is not considered a user upgradeable component on any Apple system and they have never said how easy it will be to swap out the CPU on any Apple system.
     
  9. Tesselator macrumors 601

    Tesselator

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    #9
    I didn't say I thought Apple would tell me. I said: I wanna know... ;)
     
  10. wonderspark macrumors 68040

    wonderspark

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    #10
    I predict you'll be torn by the pricing, because I think it will remain about the same: $2500 for a base model. That puts you right in the middle of $2000 and $3000, and you'll pull your hair out for a while before making a decision. :p

    I believe that the prices and options will be very similar to what they are today, with a $2500 base, rolling up to a $3800 base 12-core... all able to be built to order much higher still. They'll offer different built-in SSD storage capacities, different CPU speeds/cores, and different GPU options, just as is the case with all their product lines.

    What will be much different is that we won't be able to swap parts as easily as today. I think they'll solder those CPUs into place, for example. Perhaps even solder in the GPUs. I think they will be "what you buy is what you are stuck with" similar to the MacBook Pro laptops, requiring a whole new board if you want to upgrade a component.

    :(
     
  11. Tesselator macrumors 601

    Tesselator

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    #11
    I think there's a strong possibility you're right on all counts except one. At even one penny over $2,100 I'll easily decide to build a 4.5GHz 6-core Hackintosh and probably even run Windows on it most of the time. ;)

    Again you could be right but in that case it would mean Apple is just too greedy for me. They have cut so many costs in so many areas on the MP6,1 that if they don't pass those along to us users I'll essentially be completely done with Apple. I might be feeling differently about this if they hadn't gone proprietary with the GPUs but since they have then that's where I'm at with it - just personally speaking.

    Also the way I look at things companies even corporations need to maintain a relationship with their user base. And since the 5,1 was basically a dirty trick by which they undertook a cash grab they kind of owe us. The 6,1 machine spec is OK IMO but it needs to be a very good deal price-wise. They essentially did this with the MP1,1 and I kinda thought they did so to make up for the hassle of migrating from the PPC base. The MP1,1 was impossible to duplicate price-wise with parts of the identical types for a DIY system for about the first 8 months of its life. And it was a substantial $300 to $500 under too - unless of course you bought RAM from them as well. :p There needs to be something done along these lines anyway.... maybe they could continue the 5,1 series at half price in their base configurations or something.

    Anyway, it's not an ultimatum to Apple or anything, it's just the conditions I've set myself for myself. :)
     
  12. sbarton macrumors regular

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    #12
    Pretty much agree with everything you just said there. My first true mac was a powermac 9600 and I upgraded many times with IO/CPU/Video/RAM etc before it lost it's usefulness. I'm just not getting it. Apple is a smart company (usually). Perhaps they see a future where this works and they are going there first. I mean technology is changing all the time. What happens when NVIDIA or AMD even drop the next leap in graphics card technology 2 weeks after you buy your new 6,1. At least with the 5,1 you had a slim hope that something might trickle down to the mac ecosystem. Now you're pretty much hosed.
     
  13. VirtualRain, Jul 11, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2013

    VirtualRain macrumors 603

    VirtualRain

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    #13
    You can see the CPU configurations being tested on Geekbench... just search on the Motherboard ID... F60DEB81FF30ACF6

    http://browser.primatelabs.com/geekbench2/search?q=F60DEB81FF30ACF6

    What I don't understand is how it's possible to have a 6-core running at 4.2GHz?! There must be some messed up meta data.

    EDIT: I think the machines with a model of macpro6,1 are hacks, the nMP has the model AAPLJ90,1 (list below...)
     

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  14. deconstruct60 macrumors 604

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    Mar 10, 2009
    #14
    Is that normal PC usage? It isn't about specific individuals it is about overall markets.

    Future? How about the present? Desktop boxes-with-slots don't drive mainstream PC sales. Laptops took over from desktops several years ago.


    First, if all the technology is changing then all the components will have significant changes. It would not be a piecemeal upgrade. The incremental modular thing is far more highly relevent when only one major component is making singnificant jumps at a time. CPU dead in the water have to jump of rapidly moving GPU changes to make progress. If CPU , RAM , and GPU all have major jumps and they all matter than why wouldn't move to upgrade all three at the same time.

    So it isn't rapid change that is the primary driver of increment. It is actually more so slow incremental change that is huge driver of piecemeal upgrades. Or highly skewed workload ( only GPU , only RAM , only CPU ) dependent) which is largely indicative of smaller, much more fractured, sub-markets.


    Second, bad timing just happens in Tech. The 2010 Mac Pro shipped 2-3 months before an AMD GPU upgrade. That didn't really bring new GPU cards to the Mac Pro any faster. Eventually in 2011 got some minor movement and bigger moves late 2012-2013.

    If notice for the most part AMD and Nvidia are trotting out effectively the same video cards this year as last. They are both moving to something like Intel's tick/tock cycle only it isn't much of difference inside the cycle. As the legacy PC market slows to a stagnant or negative growth the revolutionary upgrades aren't going to come as fast. Because frankly the machines for the most part are 'fast enough" for most of the customers. That is even creeping into the workstation space.


    For folks who don't have any real or substantive benchmarks or pricing on the new systems "hosed" is a rather premature classification.

    How much real and potential ("unrealized performance" ) is present in the new GPU set-ups hasn't really be quantized very well.
     
  15. Tesselator macrumors 601

    Tesselator

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    #15
    Hmm, very interesting! Thanks for this!
     
  16. sbarton, Jul 11, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2013

    sbarton macrumors regular

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    #16
    Yes it is. The PC upgrade space is rather huge actually. Have you ever visited newegg.com or been to a Microcenter?


    No it doesn't "drive" PC sales. It is a different tool for a different job and I hardly think that a product which isn't even for sale yet foretells the end of the expandable computing platform for prosumers or professionals.


    Not really. The Nvidia Titan and GTX780 are pretty large leaps in performance over the gtx690 and gtx680.

    You will have no upgrade path at all with the GPU I suspect. Yes, a premature classification, and not a "fact", but a a pretty good prediction based on the information we know and observation of Apple in this sector for oh, the past decade.

    And yes, the numbers aren't out, but we pretty much know the specs of the xeons they will be putting in these things, and the FirePro cards have reviews all over the place. Yes, there may by some novel use of the GPUs we're not privy to, but really, there is very little chance that it will be unique to the Mac platform.

    I'm not hating on this computer at all. It just could have been so much more and there some harsh compromises that just don't make any sense.

    The only thing that could possibly offset my opinion is cost. If for some reason they manage to offer this system at a considerably lower price than the current numbers add up to, then of course its a different value proposition all together.
     
  17. Macsonic macrumors 65816

    Macsonic

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    #17
    You may be correct on the pricing scheme. I was thinking Apple may not be willing to make the price of the new Mac Pro too close to the iMac's prices specially the top model. Thru the years Apple has created a certain "distance" on pricing between the iMac and Mac Pro. The price of the NMP base could be around $2500 to $2700 :)
     
  18. td2243 macrumors 6502

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    Santa Fe, NM
    #18
    I don't like the non-upgradable-ness of it, but I'll live. I want one regardless because I know this will easily handle any processing I will throw at it. Honestly, it will come down to price. If it is something I can afford, even in it's simplest form, I'll bite. If the price is ridiculous, I won't. An iMac with the feature I want is $3K, so I would hope that bottom end Mac Pro won't be over $3K, especially since no monitor or anything is included. :)

    We'll see.
     
  19. deconstruct60 macrumors 604

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    Mar 10, 2009
    #19
    How much of that is "other system vendor" (i.e., john doe with trusty screwdriver building new system) and how much of that is upgrades ? Likewise spare spare parts. Failure driven replacements is not a "large upgrade space".

    I've visited both. I've bought back-up rotation HDDs at microcenter. They permanently went into no system at all, nor retired any older components at all. I'm sure there are incremental upgrade folks buying from both, but there are also system builders and replacement parts folks too.


    I don't think Apple is even remotely saying it is the end for all older and current Mac Pro users. Just that a subset is not seen as a long term viable growth path.


    All expansion doesn't have to be internal. This Mac Pro isn't saying expansion is over everywhere. There is a balance point though were internal versus external is the focus. This one is firmly jumping on the external bandwagon. That probably isn't a fit with one-man-band-with-one-instrument shops ( either embedded inside of larger organizations or just small orgs than can only afford just one Mac). There is likely going to be initially a smaller core of Mac Pro buyers but if that is a growing group then Apple probably will line up with that group as opposed to the group with the every lengthening buying cycle.


    Eh? The GTX 680MX -> GTX780M is zero architecture shift (same core count in same config). zero memory bandwidth increase. A 720 -> 823 speed bump in clock speed. There is no large leap there.

    The Titan is the held back K20 finally released into the consumer space. High price change perhaps, but that performance was around for a while before introduction and most definately announced and outlined for over a year.




    I don't think there will, but as I pointed out that is just as much user driven as much as Apple driven. There won't be much of an upgrade path because not going to be overwhelming, timely, coherent demand for it.

    Probably won't be so much novel use but usage of what is there. For console gaming boxes developers can squeeze more out of the system because they know a certain set of minimum resources are always there. So software is built to leverage those known resources.

    Infinite hardware variability tends to lead to software primarily built to lowest common denominator components and configurations.That kind of software tends not to get the most out of mid to upper end hardware.

    Normalizing so that two GPU set ups are normal in most of the MBP and MP configurations will raise the lowest common denominator bar over time.



    There are some harsh compromises but making sense of them also need to take into account where the Mac Pro was at and where groups of users are going.

    The primary objective is not maximize old design constraints from the previous decade (or two). Nor the viewpoint that "as is" the Mac Pro was largely being successful over the 2006-2010 time span.


    I don't think that is going to happen in major shift. Perhaps somewhat closer to the $2K border with the iMac but it won't be a major drop. If not going to be on a major GPU upgrade cycle there is about zero ration reason to gut them just to limbo into the iMac price zone. Fratricide with the iMac isn't going to buy much if any growth.

    I think the "smaller must be cheaper" folks are going to be the next round of "I don't understand" folks.

    The raw computational horsepower is going up from previous generation. Dramatically up. I think Apple has always targeted the Mac Pro primarily at folks who require more overall horsepower over time to generate more revenue. [ not a box that maximized squat on infrastructure and piecemeal upgrade. Nor a box where have largely uni-dimensional increased resource needs. I think those folks bought Mac Pro's just they never were the primary targets. ]
     
  20. MacVidCards Suspended

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    #21
    Disingenuous.

    Read that GTX780 review.

    Leaves 680 for dead.
     
  21. derbothaus, Jul 11, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2013

    derbothaus macrumors 601

    derbothaus

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    #22
    You are thinking of the GTX770. 780 is gk110 = 2034 stream procs. 770 is gx104 = 1536 stream procs. Not sure about the out of context laptop chip architectures..:p
     
  22. deconstruct60 macrumors 604

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    #23

    Sorry was looking at chart of old/new of mobile I had up in a window and didn't adjust back to desktop. So yes at the very high end of the desktop window both Titan and cheaper variant of Titan are "new" for 2013. As I said before the K20 ( GK110 foundation) was laid out in 2012 and Nvidia slow-rolled it to help make 2013 look like something new. (so at top end the "stall" was in 2012). The vast majority of the GPU line up for 2013 is clock speed bumps and number 600->700 number bumps for OEMs. 2014 most of the line up will move forward and the top end will get slow-rolled into 2015.
     
  23. bdsmith63 macrumors member

    bdsmith63

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    Dec 19, 2009
    #24
    Mac Pro versus Used Mac Pro

    I agree Apple is making it clear and giving buyers notice that when the new Mac Pro comes out the prior model is gone!

    I've been debating on just buying a used or refurbished Mac Pro, however, the particular site I have purchased other Mac products from lists them as certain names such as "Clovertown, Nehalem, Harpertown, etc." where can I find a chronological order of these models and learn which one(s) were the best?
     
  24. jonnymo5 macrumors 6502

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    #25
    The Mac Pro makes sense with Apples "Appliance Computing" philosophy. My guess would be that this model fits the requirements for the large studios who make up the majority of their Pro sales. I think if they can hit a good price point it could be a success. Having to rely on so many external drives is my main concern.
     

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