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I think Apple iPhone is in serious trouble if US carriers end subsidies

ugcop said:
This will be a reality check for people. Before, your phone bill was your phone bill. You were stuck at the same rate whether you upgraded your phone or continued to use your three year old phone.

Now people will see it as taking on additional debt to finance the new phone. Will it make a difference to some people? I think those on a tight budget and who are spending responsibly may put off the two year cycle upgrade.
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Honestly I think some people will decide to get a dumbphone next time they feel the need to switch phones, if they have a tablet. Those of us who are not hamhanded can fondly remember using one hand on a cellphone. Those of us with iPhone 5-whatever and who are stretching to feel comfortable one-handing it are not looking forward to the rumored yet larger iPhones.

Just because I'm thrilled I can fit a mini-iPad in most of my handbags, and often do that, no one should assume I'm happy also carting around a fairly large smartphone because I might want to make or get a phone call while I'm out. I'm not. And I won't go for the next size up in smartphones, that's for sure. More and more often I think about that little default phone I had on a Verizon contract once, it was practically the size of a flattened golfball. It made calls and got calls, that's what I got it for. That's what I'll get my next dumbphone for, and I sure god won't miss paying ATT for the priviilege of maintaining an account with grandfathered unlimited data I can't use for tethering anyway. And now for a trip to the kitchen, I think I did not sugar my coffee today ;)
 
But you are on a single line, and carrying around two devices.

I'm on a family plan and desire not to carry around two devices. If I'm in the field on down time, I like to catch up on Netflix shows or whatever.

Plus with my grandfathered plans, it's true I'm paying more than AT&Ts new plan, but the few bucks difference for me is worth it not to worry about data and whether I'm on wifi or not.
 
This is all so simple. But people chose to make it complicated.

Let's start from the beginning:

FYI, Cell phones carriers can charge you $20/month for unlimited voice, text and data and still do perfectly fine. Of course, they will never tell you this because they are in the business of making money. LOTS of money.

So, throughout the years they have come up with ways (schemes) to suck every last penny out of you (minute overages, text overages, international roaming etc etc). They have come up with ridiculous pricing plans, for example: $20/month for unlimited texting (texting cost the networks NOTHING, NADA, ZERO, ZIP to support).

Now here comes the real greedy scheme of them all. Cell phones. Carriers have always had the advantage on this. Cell phone makers -- Samsung, Motorola, Nokia etc etc never really had flagship stores exclusively for cell phones (where someone can walk in and just buy a cell phone). Kinda like now, how you can walk into Apple and just buy an Apple phone. There was never anything like that. Specially back then. You couldn't just go to the mall and go to the Nokia store and buy a Nokia 2300. This means if you wanted a certain phone you would buy it at the carrier, NOT the maker. This is where all the numbers got blurry and your cell phone bill sky rocketed.


Now, carriers sell you a "free", $50, $99, $199, $299 phone as long as you sign a 2 year contract (ETF = $350, which again, its another scheme to suck every penny out of you). This guarantees the carriers to bundle the true cost of that cell phone over a 24 month period. What this really means for you is: After 2 years, you are technically done paying for that $650 iPhone but they (the carriers) will keep charging you the same inflated rate.


T-Mobile
----------

T-Mobile has actually taken the first step in reversing all these ill schemes from the greedy fat carriers and I'm actually glad they have. They keep their plans simple unlike the other carriers. Throughout the years hopefully they keep headed towards that unlimited everything for $20 price plan i mentioned earlier. In other parts of the world (where cell phone carriers are far more advanced than the US) cell phone carriers are charging reasonable rates. I have read in this forum people paying $24 - $32 unlimited everything. And they look at us Americans as cell phones savages paying all these ridiculous prices.


iPhones

Yes they cost $650, $750 $850. Apple always gets that exact money for every single iPhone sold. It doesn't matter if you pay them for it or the carriers pay them for it. They always get that exact amount. So please get that theory out of your head that carriers "take a hit" when they sell it to you at the subsidized price of $199, $299, or $399. They don't. You end up paying for it one way or another.


Now onto financing....

Im sick and tired of people reading and bitching that financing is like a contract. NO IT IS NOTTTTTTTT. I REPEAT. NO IT IS NOTTTTTTTTTTT.

If you cancel out of a financing plan and you have to pay the remainder of your cell phone. That's not like an "ETF" lmao That means your broke ass has to finish paying ur cell phone.


Keep phone and carrier separate.

If you can't afford an iPhone at full price you should seriously reconsider your financial priorities. Like somebody here said, this type of behavior of just financing what you CAN"T afford is what's really destroying the US.
 
617aircav said:
Won't make a difference.
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the difference is that people would upgrade less often, not every two years. or they will purchase used and cheaper phone through craiglist, amazon, ebay, instead of getting new phones every two years.

because this would save them money. currently with subsidized plans, they would not save anything whether they upgrade to new phone or not,


subsidized plan is like welfare program and creates alot of waste, buying a new phone while the old one is perfectly usable. separate plan and phone cost would create a capitalism eco that makes the market more efficient and reduce alot of waste.
 
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yg17 said:
What's going to happen is eventually people are going to do the math and realize they're paying $600 for a phone that used to cost $200 and they still have a 2 year commitment (and yes, the installment plan is basically a contract, with the remaining cost of the phone being an ETF if you cancel).

Unsubsidized phone prices have been artificially inflated because carriers were willing to cover the cost (no carrier is ever going to tell Apple that the cost is too high so they're not going to carry the iPhone, that would be suicide). Now that the true cost of the phone is out there front and center for consumers to see, they're hopefully going to come down.

iPad Air 16GB LTE: $629
iPhone 5S 16GB: $649

The guts are the same - CPU, storage, RAM, cellular radios, with the iPad having a significantly bigger screen and bigger battery, it makes no sense that the iPhone costs more. The 5S has Touch ID, but it can't be that expensive.

And, whether people here want to admit it or not, Google may help lower the cost of the iPhone - The Nexus 5 is $349 for similar specs. If people are now paying full cost of the phone, Apple's going to have to compete with that.
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This has to be the most ignorant **** I have read all my life. The $200 phone you are referring to was never a "$200" phone. It was $650 always. The carrier gave it to your cheaper then ****ed you in the ass with your plan to make up for the difference.

An installment plan is not a contract. I buy my phones full price every year in cold hard cash. What contract am I tied to? What ETF do i pay? Your "commitment" and "Etf" that you are referring to is your own fault for not being able to afford the phone upfront.
 
MarvelouzV said:
This is all so simple. But people chose to make it complicated.

Let's start from the beginning:

FYI, Cell phones carriers can charge you $20/month for unlimited voice, text and data and still do perfectly fine. Of course, they will never tell you this because they are in the business of making money. LOTS of money.

So, throughout the years they have come up with ways (schemes) to suck every last penny out of you (minute overages, text overages, international roaming etc etc). They have come up with ridiculous pricing plans, for example: $20/month for unlimited texting (texting cost the networks NOTHING, NADA, ZERO, ZIP to support).

Now here comes the real greedy scheme of them all. Cell phones. Carriers have always had the advantage on this. Cell phone makers -- Samsung, Motorola, Nokia etc etc never really had flagship stores exclusively for cell phones (where someone can walk in and just buy a cell phone). Kinda like now, how you can walk into Apple and just buy an Apple phone. There was never anything like that. Specially back then. You couldn't just go to the mall and go to the Nokia store and buy a Nokia 2300. This means if you wanted a certain phone you would buy it at the carrier, NOT the maker. This is where all the numbers got blurry and your cell phone bill sky rocketed.


Now, carriers sell you a "free", $50, $99, $199, $299 phone as long as you sign a 2 year contract (ETF = $350, which again, its another scheme to suck every penny out of you). This guarantees the carriers to bundle the true cost of that cell phone over a 24 month period. What this really means for you is: After 2 years, you are technically done paying for that $650 iPhone but they (the carriers) will keep charging you the same inflated rate.


T-Mobile
----------

T-Mobile has actually taken the first step in reversing all these ill schemes from the greedy fat carriers and I'm actually glad they have. They keep their plans simple unlike the other carriers. Throughout the years hopefully they keep headed towards that unlimited everything for $20 price plan i mentioned earlier. In other parts of the world (where cell phone carriers are far more advanced than the US) cell phone carriers are charging reasonable rates. I have read in this forum people paying $24 - $32 unlimited everything. And they look at us Americans as cell phones savages paying all these ridiculous prices.


iPhones

Yes they cost $650, $750 $850. Apple always gets that exact money for every single iPhone sold. It doesn't matter if you pay them for it or the carriers pay them for it. They always get that exact amount. So please get that theory out of your head that carriers "take a hit" when they sell it to you at the subsidized price of $199, $299, or $399. They don't. You end up paying for it one way or another.


Now onto financing....

Im sick and tired of people reading and bitching that financing is like a contract. NO IT IS NOTTTTTTTT. I REPEAT. NO IT IS NOTTTTTTTTTTT.

If you cancel out of a financing plan and you have to pay the remainder of your cell phone. That's not like an "ETF" lmao That means your broke ass has to finish paying ur cell phone.


Keep phone and carrier separate.

If you can't afford an iPhone at full price you should seriously reconsider your financial priorities. Like somebody here said, this type of behavior of just financing what you CAN"T afford is what's really destroying the US.
Click to expand...

I have no clue about what you are referring to. Here in the US if you sign a legal agreement you are entering into a contract. You are playing with semantics.
 
MarvelouzV said:
This has to be the most ignorant **** I have read all my life.
Click to expand...

The feeling's mutual.

The $200 phone you are referring to was never a "$200" phone.
Click to expand...

No ****. To the average consumer who doesn't think too much about these things, it's a $200 phone, because that's what they pay up front. We know it's $650 because we do the research and math. But go ask 10 random people off the street how much their iPhone cost, and I bet 9 of them will tell you $200 because that's what they paid at the Apple Store.

It was $650 always. The carrier gave it to your cheaper then ****ed you in the ass with your plan to make up for the difference.
Click to expand...

Again, duh. I know how cell phone contracts work.

An installment plan is not a contract.
Click to expand...

If you buy a phone on one of the carrier's installment plans, can you just cancel your service without owing anything extra? No. You have to pay off the full balance of the phone. For all intents and purposes, it's an ETF. It's not called an ETF, but it's just semantics. It's still something you have to pay to get out of your installment plan and cancel service.

I've never bought a phone on one of these installment plans, but I bet you sign something that says you agree to pay $X per month for X months for the phone. That's a contract. You don't have to be a lawyer to figure that one out.

I buy my phones full price every year in cold hard cash.
Click to expand...

Good for you. So do I, but I never found it necessary to brag about that on the internet.

What contract am I tied to? What ETF do i pay? Your "commitment" and "Etf" that you are referring to is your own fault for not being able to afford the phone upfront.
Click to expand...

Never said you were tied to a contract if you paid for the full cost up front. If you finance the phone, you absolutely do have some sort of a commitment even if the carriers don't want to call it a contract.
 
It'll be interesting what happens in a couple of years, if we indeed fully decouple the phone purchase from cell phone service, resulting in complete transparency to the average consumer.

For iPhone 6, I don't think any of this will matter. It seems to me, whenever iPhone 6 launches, those who are planning to buy it, will regardless of (1) full retail, (2) subsidy, hidden or otherwise, (3) 0% financing, or (4) just buy it outright.
 
I personally haven't used T-Mobile's financing yet (always bought iPhones outright) but since it's 0 interest I might as well take advantage of it this year with the iPhone 6.

The way I see it:
- Get the 32GB iPhone 6 for $99 down ($27/mo, 24 mons)
- Pay for it for 12 months, remaining balance will be $326
- Sell it for $450 to pay off the remaining balance and pay $99 down for the iPhone 6S
- Rinse/repeat. Latest model iPhone every year.
 
yg17 said:
The feeling's mutual.



No ****. To the average consumer who doesn't think too much about these things, it's a $200 phone, because that's what they pay up front. We know it's $650 because we do the research and math. But go ask 10 random people off the street how much their iPhone cost, and I bet 9 of them will tell you $200 because that's what they paid at the Apple Store.



Again, duh. I know how cell phone contracts work.



If you buy a phone on one of the carrier's installment plans, can you just cancel your service without owing anything extra? No. You have to pay off the full balance of the phone. For all intents and purposes, it's an ETF. It's not called an ETF, but it's just semantics. It's still something you have to pay to get out of your installment plan and cancel service.

I've never bought a phone on one of these installment plans, but I bet you sign something that says you agree to pay $X per month for X months for the phone. That's a contract. You don't have to be a lawyer to figure that one out.



Good for you. So do I, but I never found it necessary to brag about that on the internet.



Never said you were tied to a contract if you paid for the full cost up front. If you finance the phone, you absolutely do have some sort of a commitment even if the carriers don't want to call it a contract.
Click to expand...


You keep contradicting yourself you monkey.

Separate device and service**** They have nothing to do with each other.


Look at this example so its easy for you to understand.

Step 1. Go to your nearest Apple Store and purchase a 16GB iPhone 5S at full price ($650 value)

Step 2. Tell them you are flat broke, have no money in your pocket and need to sign up for an installment plan.

Step 3. Apple store says fine. You can sign up for our installment plan using our Barclay Financing services. 0 money down today (LIKE THE CARRIERS), take the phone. You just gotta make atleast the minimum payment of $28/month for 24 months.

Step 4. OK so now you have the DEVICE in your hand.

Step 5. Go to your nearest WIRELES CARRIER OF YOUR CHOICE.

Step 6. Sign up for service. Paying XXX amounts of dollars a month.

Step 7. You are fed up with service, so you CANCEL SERVICE. (Service says ok, YOU HAVE NO CONTRACT WITH US. THERE IS NO EARLY TERMINATION FEE)

Step 8. You still financed your iPhone 5S through Apple/Barclay Services. You can still keep paying them $28 a month or cancel out.

Step 9. You decide to cancel them. THEY WANT ALL THEIR MONEY UP FRONT. YES OF COURSE. WHY WOULDN'T THEY??? YOU HAVE THEIR PHONE AND THEIR MONEY

Same concept applies if you were to buy the phone using an American Express, Visa, Mastercard, your wireless Carries as your financing party. Because you canceled SERVICE does not mean you get to stop paying for a DEVICE you FINANCED.
 
MarvelouzV said:
You keep contradicting yourself you monkey.

Separate device and service**** They have nothing to do with each other.


Look at this example so its easy for you to understand.

Step 1. Go to your nearest Apple Store and purchase a 16GB iPhone 5S at full price ($650 value)

Step 2. Tell them you are flat broke, have no money in your pocket and need to sign up for an installment plan.

Step 3. Apple store says fine. You can sign up for our installment plan using our Barclay Financing services. 0 money down today (LIKE THE CARRIERS), take the phone. You just gotta make atleast the minimum payment of $28/month for 24 months.

Step 4. OK so now you have the DEVICE in your hand.

Step 5. Go to your nearest WIRELES CARRIER OF YOUR CHOICE.

Step 6. Sign up for service. Paying XXX amounts of dollars a month.

Step 7. You are fed up with service, so you CANCEL SERVICE. (Service says ok, YOU HAVE NO CONTRACT WITH US. THERE IS NO EARLY TERMINATION FEE)

Step 8. You still financed your iPhone 5S through Apple/Barclay Services. You can still keep paying them $28 a month or cancel out.

Step 9. You decide to cancel them. THEY WANT ALL THEIR MONEY UP FRONT. YES OF COURSE. WHY WOULDN'T THEY??? YOU HAVE THEIR PHONE AND THEIR MONEY

Same concept applies if you were to buy the phone using an American Express, Visa, Mastercard, your wireless Carries as your financing party. Because you canceled SERVICE does not mean you get to stop paying for a DEVICE you FINANCED.
Click to expand...
You're fighting over the word etf. Regardless, u cancel u owe money to the carrier for the phone. That's all the guy is saying lol

You are signing a "contract" saying I will pay the remaining balance if I cancel....

Sure u aren't locked into the service, but u owe them money for the phone.
 
MarvelouzV said:
You keep contradicting yourself you monkey.
Click to expand...

Oh grow up.

I know how financing with a credit card works. I'm not an idiot. I'm clearly talking about financing through a carrier installment plan (as I stated multiple times) - there is absolutely a fee to be paid when canceling before your phone is paid off. Thr carriers might not call it an ETF but that's what it is.
 
yg17 said:
Oh grow up.

I know how financing with a credit card works. I'm not an idiot. I'm clearly talking about financing through a carrier installment plan (as I stated multiple times) - there is absolutely a fee to be paid when canceling before your phone is paid off. Thr carriers might not call it an ETF but that's what it is.
Click to expand...

Exactly!
 
yg17 said:
Oh grow up.

I know how financing with a credit card works. I'm not an idiot. I'm clearly talking about financing through a carrier installment plan (as I stated multiple times) - there is absolutely a fee to be paid when canceling before your phone is paid off. Thr carriers might not call it an ETF but that's what it is.
Click to expand...

Exactly.

The whole point of an ETF was that it provided a lock-in for the consumer. They are less likely to jump carriers and switch if they have to pay a big lump sum in order to get out of their contract.

Now, you are "contract free". Yay!. Except you financed your phone through your carrier at the generous $0 down, 20 payments etc... Great. Now you have no reason not to cancel your contract and jump carriers! Except that if you decide to do so, your financing gets cancelled and you have to pay off the phone immediately. Which is about as much as your ETF used to be.

Net result? Consumers are still locked into their carriers. Same net effect.

Unless you finance your phone via a third party, except they generally don't have any incentive to offer generous terms like $0 down, no interest...
 
CEmajr said:
I personally haven't used T-Mobile's financing yet (always bought iPhones outright) but since it's 0 interest I might as well take advantage of it this year with the iPhone 6.

The way I see it:
- Get the 32GB iPhone 6 for $99 down ($27/mo, 24 mons)
- Pay for it for 12 months, remaining balance will be $326
- Sell it for $450 to pay off the remaining balance and pay $99 down for the iPhone 6S
- Rinse/repeat. Latest model iPhone every year.
Click to expand...

And get kicked off tmobiles network.
 
rmhop81 said:
Lol that guy lied entirely in his post
Click to expand...

Oh he was talking about that guy? Haha he was buying several phones at $0 down, never using them, and selling them to get upfront cash like an interest-free loan. All over a short period of time. Pretty much scamming the carrier.

T-Mobile has no problem with customers financing and USING a phone, reselling it later to pay off the old balance, and upgrading to a new phone. I have several friends who have done and continue to do this.
 
CEmajr said:
Oh he was talking about that guy? Haha he was buying several phones at $0 down, never using them, and selling them to get upfront cash like an interest-free loan. All over a short period of time. Pretty much scamming the carrier.

T-Mobile has no problem with customers financing and USING a phone, reselling it later to pay off the old balance, and upgrading to a new phone. I have several friends who have done and continue to do this.
Click to expand...

Yeah exactly!
 
617aircav said:
You are wrong sir. Every tech blog have mentioned how you pay back the subsidy in your monthly charges.
Click to expand...

If that was true then there'd be no reason for AT&T to end carrier subsidies they've been considering. They'd just keep profiting off the payback. Yet it's widely reported in financial sites that the cost of subsidized phones is becoming too much.

I've read every word of my AT&T, and T-Mobile contracts, privacy policies, and terms of service. An investment of time most consumers are unwilling to make.

That's why there's legions of uniformed people challenging my original post. They simply cannot summons the courage to do the research. Looking for a quick fix they rely on secondhand accounts. In turn it's a dearth of misinformation floating around the blogosphere.
 
Partridge said:
Exactly.

The whole point of an ETF was that it provided a lock-in for the consumer. They are less likely to jump carriers and switch if they have to pay a big lump sum in order to get out of their contract.

Now, you are "contract free". Yay!. Except you financed your phone through your carrier at the generous $0 down, 20 payments etc... Great. Now you have no reason not to cancel your contract and jump carriers! Except that if you decide to do so, your financing gets cancelled and you have to pay off the phone immediately. Which is about as much as your ETF used to be.

Net result? Consumers are still locked into their carriers. Same net effect.

Unless you finance your phone via a third party, except they generally don't have any incentive to offer generous terms like $0 down, no interest...
Click to expand...

Wrong.

You're not locked into the carrier.

What you_are_responsible for is the financing obligation you agreed to when choosing to finance the phone. That's a financing contract for the phone, it has nothing to do with the service.

Just because you can't afford to pay cash for the phone is not the carriers problem.

Conversely when I signed up for T-Mobile's jump program I gladly paid cash for my Note 3. Now I'm free to come and go as I want without paying out anything to leave.

I'm staying because I get unlimited fast LTE data without throttling. For the last two months I've averaged 7 to 8GB usage since I travel so much. It's a great deal, and it's as fast or faster than my AT&T LTE.

T-Mobile is making great moves.
 
sixrom said:
If that was true then there'd be no reason for AT&T to end carrier subsidies they've been considering. They'd just keep profiting off the payback. Yet it's widely reported in financial sites that the cost of subsidized phones is becoming too much.

I've read every word of my AT&T, and T-Mobile contracts, privacy policies, and terms of service. An investment of time most consumers are unwilling to make.

That's why there's legions of uniformed people challenging my original post. They simply cannot summons the courage to do the research. Looking for a quick fix they rely on secondhand accounts. In turn it's a dearth of misinformation floating around the blogosphere.
Click to expand...

They aren't ending them completely. You can still get a subsidy. Add $25 more per line and you can get a subsidized phone....

----------
sixrom said:
Wrong.

You're not locked into the carrier.

What you_are_responsible for is the financing obligation you agreed to when choosing to finance the phone. That's a financing contract for the phone, it has nothing to do with the service.

Just because you can't afford to pay cash for the phone is not the carriers problem.

Conversely when I signed up for T-Mobile's jump program I gladly paid cash for my Note 3. Now I'm free to come and go as I want without paying out anything to leave.

I'm staying because I get unlimited fast LTE data without throttling. For the last two months I've averaged 7 to 8GB usage since I travel so much. It's a great deal, and it's as fast or faster than my AT&T LTE.

T-Mobile is making great moves.
Click to expand...
sure, but if u switch u still owe the remaining balance on the phone lol. Why is this hard to understand? U think people are gonna switch to tmobile while still paying off their phone from att? Lol
 
sixrom said:
Wrong.

You're not locked into the carrier.

What you_are_responsible for is the financing obligation you agreed to when choosing to finance the phone. That's a financing contract for the phone, it has nothing to do with the service.
Click to expand...

None of the carriers will let you cancel service and keep paying monthly for the phone. If you're currently under a payment plan, you have to have service with them.
 
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