I'm one of those sorry saps who has to upgrade right now. Actually, I'm very pleased to be able to go from my original G4/400 with the Yikes MB to a new Dual 867 upgraded with a Superdrive (which is currently en route), but this IBM proc with improved MB interconnects could be an upgrade several orders of magnitude the likes of which we haven't seen in a loooooooong time. I know that there will ALWAYS be something better down the pipeline, but if this rumor is true, it will feel like I'm going from a KIA to a Lexus, when I could go from a KIA to a Ferrari for the same money if I had just waited a bit longer.
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IBM G4's in 2003
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Re: Re: Re: Here we go again
True, but most of the heavy hitter app's like FCP, Photoshop, Maya etc... should be saturated with multi-threaded code.
This may sound like a dumb question but, will Apple have to develop a 64 bit version of OS X? Also will these new porcessors be compatible with older apps: Starcaft, Photoshop 6, and so on. Or will they just no be able to take advantage of 64 bit processing? It would be really cool if Apple is the first with a 64 bit processor for the masses, that would definantly win us some switchers. 2ghz would be nice
Originally posted by Macmaniac
This may sound like a dumb question but, will Apple have to develop a 64 bit version of OS X? Also will these new porcessors be compatible with older apps: Starcaft, Photoshop 6, and so on. Or will they just no be able to take advantage of 64 bit processing? It would be really cool if Apple is the first with a 64 bit processor for the masses, that would definantly win us some switchers. 2ghz would be nice
As I understand it (and that's really not saying very much
), OS X only needs to be recompiled to be fully 64bit native, no rewriting necessary (i.e. it's already written to be 64bit native).As for older apps, they would simply not use the full capacity of the chip, using only the first 32 bits. Thus, they would effectively run the chip at only half capacity.
(Please don't hesitate to correct me if I've misspoken. It's been too long since I've read up on this aspect of architecture...)
I am on the fence about this
If the G5 is to be 1ghz and it will only give you speed on certain kinds of apps, what will be left to run at the normal speed of a 1ghz chip? If you can play 5 high quality videos at the same time under transparent windows without frameskips but all your old programs will go at the same speed they where before unless they are updated, has Apple done anything to help us? Would this chip be like the G4, you had to buy new versions of your programs that used the velocity engine to see the maximum speed of the chip? If not, then we are in for a treat, but if it is only 1ghz, they are going to have to convince Mac users to buy, not just windows users. Not only that, but everyone who has a web page about macs have to agree that this chip does what it does for people to buy, just look at the powermacs we have now, if you took apples word for it, they are as fast as it gets when they are only marginally faster than what they replaced.
As for the person that bought a soon to be slow computer all I could say is:
Don't worry too much about it, Apple rarely makes the low end Powermac even chip-wise with the top two. Look at it now, it is like 45% slower than the dual gig because of the motherboard. The first generation of G5 will probably have a G4 1gig on a 166mhz mobo and the top two will go up in price and be 1 processor at the middle on the new mobo and dual 1 gig at the top with new mobo and faster graphics card. So for what you got and what you payed for, you did get a good deal. That is, if Apple does not keep its all dual powermac lineup strategy.
By the way, anyone here with a dual machine, how many 640x480 movie trailers can you play at the same time with sound and see no skipping? Does the system feel sluggish?
If the G5 is to be 1ghz and it will only give you speed on certain kinds of apps, what will be left to run at the normal speed of a 1ghz chip? If you can play 5 high quality videos at the same time under transparent windows without frameskips but all your old programs will go at the same speed they where before unless they are updated, has Apple done anything to help us? Would this chip be like the G4, you had to buy new versions of your programs that used the velocity engine to see the maximum speed of the chip? If not, then we are in for a treat, but if it is only 1ghz, they are going to have to convince Mac users to buy, not just windows users. Not only that, but everyone who has a web page about macs have to agree that this chip does what it does for people to buy, just look at the powermacs we have now, if you took apples word for it, they are as fast as it gets when they are only marginally faster than what they replaced.
As for the person that bought a soon to be slow computer all I could say is:
Don't worry too much about it, Apple rarely makes the low end Powermac even chip-wise with the top two. Look at it now, it is like 45% slower than the dual gig because of the motherboard. The first generation of G5 will probably have a G4 1gig on a 166mhz mobo and the top two will go up in price and be 1 processor at the middle on the new mobo and dual 1 gig at the top with new mobo and faster graphics card. So for what you got and what you payed for, you did get a good deal. That is, if Apple does not keep its all dual powermac lineup strategy.
By the way, anyone here with a dual machine, how many 640x480 movie trailers can you play at the same time with sound and see no skipping? Does the system feel sluggish?
Anyone who actively follows processor developments new the jump from 500Mhz to 700Mhz G4+ wasn't going to yield a huge jump in speed.
The 500mhz G4 was a 4 stage pipleline Proc.
The 700mhz G4+ was a 7 stage.
Increase the piplelines in a proc and you ehance it's ability to be clocked at a higher rate but you lose efficiency generally. It's a design tradeoff that has propelled the P4 to great mythical heights.
The Power4 Lite proc is slated to have 10-15 Piplines I believe and will be no larger than a 130 Nano process...most likey 90 nano. So it's should clock at 2ghz relatively easy IMO.
It's frustrating to read so many Mac users who are disgruntled because Apple's computers aren't clocked as high as AMD/Intel when many do not realize the design tradeoffs involved.
Trust me the G5 is not going to be 1ghz. The current Power4 is a huge proc at 180 nano with multiple cores huge caching and much more. It's way too much for a Desktop.
The lite version will be made to clock and support SIMD.
Here's what you all can most likely expect next year in the Powermacs
Next update:
130 Nano G4+ Should go up to Dual 1.5-1.6 Q1 2003
130 or 90 Nano IBM G5. Apple could hit 1.8 2.0 and perhaps 2.2ghz. The ApplePI proc to memory controller is essential for taking advantage of the 6.4GBps memory bandwidth of this proc.
I think that this proc has the potential to be a large leap forward in speed but I'll have to temper my enthusiasm until we know more about the proc from IBM on Oct 15.
never debunked...
one of those I heard from a guy who heard from an IBM engineer that... blah blah blah...
Only thing we do know as fact that IBM has said it is making 64-Bit PPC chips derived from Power4... for low end servers and desktops... with very Alitvec like features. And they plan to introduce them at around 2GHz.
one of those I heard from a guy who heard from an IBM engineer that... blah blah blah...
Only thing we do know as fact that IBM has said it is making 64-Bit PPC chips derived from Power4... for low end servers and desktops... with very Alitvec like features. And they plan to introduce them at around 2GHz.
I guess I am going to have to wait.................. and wait.................... and wait................... and wait................... and then it will finally come out............ and then I will wait........ and wait........... and wait........... and finally the price will drop 300-400 $'s......... and then I will buy one.................. and then I can die a happy man.............. but only after i have used it for at least a year.........
[edit] if this rumor is even true at all [/edit]
[edit] if this rumor is even true at all
[/edit]
Originally posted by DaveGee
Rule is with TGB (as it was with Mac The Knife) you usually gotta look PAST the 1st paragraph to get on to the TRUE meat of the story. Been that way for a long long time. TGB doesn't talk trash... You do see him talking about iWalks and QUAD Processor PPC based monsters and the day you seem him talking about em... well then that means we might really see em come true.
Biggest problem with TGB is he usually waits for REAL confirmation about the stuff he is working on and as such he doesn't report on nearly as much stuff as say SpyMac or MOSR does... (isn't about time MOSR dusts off that QUAD CPU rumor again?)
Dave
oh, i get it now. thanks for clearing that up. i haven't read this guys stuff before. at first glance it looks like something from crazyapplerumors.com.
Interesting links from Outsider on AI
http://www.plasma-online.de/index.h...line.de/english/identify/picture/ibm_cpu.html
Power4-B (0.13 µm, Cu, 2GHz, 2003)
Look at the very last entry on the whole page.
http://www.midrangeserver.com/tfh/tfh030402-story02.html
Last paragraph states that Power4-II servers should be out sometime in October of 2002...
As for the timing of AIX partition support, I think it is much more likely that PASE in enhanced in OS/400 V5R2 and AIX partitions will become available around when OS/400 V5R3 and AIX 5L Release 5.3 ship on Power4-II servers. AIX 5L Release 5.2 and the Power4-II servers are due around October 2002, and AIX 5L 5.3 is expected sometime in the second half of 2003, probably on Power5 servers.
http://www.plasma-online.de/index.h...line.de/english/identify/picture/ibm_cpu.html
Power4-B (0.13 µm, Cu, 2GHz, 2003)
Look at the very last entry on the whole page.
http://www.midrangeserver.com/tfh/tfh030402-story02.html
Last paragraph states that Power4-II servers should be out sometime in October of 2002...
As for the timing of AIX partition support, I think it is much more likely that PASE in enhanced in OS/400 V5R2 and AIX partitions will become available around when OS/400 V5R3 and AIX 5L Release 5.3 ship on Power4-II servers. AIX 5L Release 5.2 and the Power4-II servers are due around October 2002, and AIX 5L 5.3 is expected sometime in the second half of 2003, probably on Power5 servers.
RE: 64-Bit
Nope.
1Q03, AMD will have their version of the x86-64 out for the masses. Rumor has it that it will start at the equivent of a P4 3 Ghz. Later in '03 AMD will be shipping 90 nm technology CPUs.
[edit]http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/ProductInformation/0,,30_118_608,00.html
[/edit]
Nope.
1Q03, AMD will have their version of the x86-64 out for the masses. Rumor has it that it will start at the equivent of a P4 3 Ghz. Later in '03 AMD will be shipping 90 nm technology CPUs.
[edit]http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/ProductInformation/0,,30_118_608,00.html
[/edit]
Re: I am on the fence about this
I can't tell you how many 640x480 movies I can play on my older model dual 1ghz, but I can tell you that I have played 8 movies at one time, while ripping a cd, and saw vertually no hit in overall performace. I nearly died.
So if your question is wheather or not to get a dual proc. over a single, then my responce is a resounding yes!
P-Worm
I can't tell you how many 640x480 movies I can play on my older model dual 1ghz, but I can tell you that I have played 8 movies at one time, while ripping a cd, and saw vertually no hit in overall performace. I nearly died.
So if your question is wheather or not to get a dual proc. over a single, then my responce is a resounding yes!
P-Worm
Re: I pity the fools
What makes you think that this R & D phase will be publicly announced?
Could it have begun 8, 12, or 16 moths ago?
Could IBM possibly announce on the 15th that this chip has been designed, built, and tested, and wil now enter production?
Hmmmm...
What makes you think that this R & D phase will be publicly announced?
Could it have begun 8, 12, or 16 moths ago?
Could IBM possibly announce on the 15th that this chip has been designed, built, and tested, and wil now enter production?
Hmmmm...
Re: I pity the fools
if you had bothered to read the MacEdition report, it said that don't expect these IBM-powered Macs to be introduced this January. It also said that they had OS X running on the new CPU back in Nov. 2001. It's naive to think that any of us has a clue as to the development schedule of Apple and IBM. They could've been working on this for years, for all we know.
But if they're introducing the chip this October, I would have to think it'll take them at least another 6-9 months before they're producing in quantities. But again, I don't pretend to know Apple's development cycle anymore than the next guy.
if you had bothered to read the MacEdition report, it said that don't expect these IBM-powered Macs to be introduced this January. It also said that they had OS X running on the new CPU back in Nov. 2001. It's naive to think that any of us has a clue as to the development schedule of Apple and IBM. They could've been working on this for years, for all we know.
But if they're introducing the chip this October, I would have to think it'll take them at least another 6-9 months before they're producing in quantities. But again, I don't pretend to know Apple's development cycle anymore than the next guy.
Dual 867
I'll also be moving from a Mac of similar vintage, in my case a PBG3 333 Lombard. I've waited for almost 3 years to the day before getting a new Mac, and I'm looking forward to getting a dual G4 machine even if faster stuff comes out in the next 12 months. As I see it, OS X is finally up to an acceptable speed that it'll run well on this Mac, and I also want to be able to run OS 9-based music stuff if I want without Apple telling me I can't as they will in January.
At least these G4s are built for the OS they'll be running. I pity the poor fools who placed down money in the days of the dual 450 and dual 500 machines, before OS X was ready, and at a time when very very few apps could take advantage of the second processor. The time of the duals is ripe.
Originally posted by G4scott
Sounds like me
I might get my parents to trade in my 400mhz yikes G4 for $500 at CompUSA, and we might get the dual 867. I really see no need for the dual 1ghz for what my family uses it for. Maybe the super drive, but that's about it...
I'll also be moving from a Mac of similar vintage, in my case a PBG3 333 Lombard. I've waited for almost 3 years to the day before getting a new Mac, and I'm looking forward to getting a dual G4 machine even if faster stuff comes out in the next 12 months. As I see it, OS X is finally up to an acceptable speed that it'll run well on this Mac, and I also want to be able to run OS 9-based music stuff if I want without Apple telling me I can't as they will in January.
At least these G4s are built for the OS they'll be running. I pity the poor fools who placed down money in the days of the dual 450 and dual 500 machines, before OS X was ready, and at a time when very very few apps could take advantage of the second processor. The time of the duals is ripe.
The writing style...
If you're one of the people saying "what is WITH that guy's writing style?" (as opposed to one of the people like me, who get the joke, and find it hilarious!) get over to Google and search for Nigerian 419 Spam.
All will be made clear.
If you're one of the people saying "what is WITH that guy's writing style?" (as opposed to one of the people like me, who get the joke, and find it hilarious!) get over to Google and search for Nigerian 419 Spam.
All will be made clear.
Has anyone considered this??????
With the knowledge that the new 970/Power4 Lite has the AltiVec unit on it, it seems obvious to me that IBM has either:
A - Licensed the right to make AltiVec on their chips;
B - Reverse-engineered AV to work and be legal, or;
C - Apple has paid for IBM to use AV.
In any respects, does it seem likely at all to anyone else that IBM could use the license to make G4 chips for Apple, allowing them to split the supply with Motorola??
I mean, G3s for the iBook and and the G4+ and 970 for the PowerMac and [x]Mac lines from IBM, 7455 and 7457 chips for the eMac, iMac and maybe the some PowerBooks from Motorola. Basicly all G3 and DDR compliant G4s and such from IBM and everything else from M.
i dunno, just thinking out loud.
With the knowledge that the new 970/Power4 Lite has the AltiVec unit on it, it seems obvious to me that IBM has either:
A - Licensed the right to make AltiVec on their chips;
B - Reverse-engineered AV to work and be legal, or;
C - Apple has paid for IBM to use AV.
In any respects, does it seem likely at all to anyone else that IBM could use the license to make G4 chips for Apple, allowing them to split the supply with Motorola??
I mean, G3s for the iBook and and the G4+ and 970 for the PowerMac and [x]Mac lines from IBM, 7455 and 7457 chips for the eMac, iMac and maybe the some PowerBooks from Motorola. Basicly all G3 and DDR compliant G4s and such from IBM and everything else from M.
i dunno, just thinking out loud.
Re: Here we go again
This will be a varient of the IBM Power4 processor, the PPC 970. It is a completely new processor (aside from the power4 roots).
IBM has already announced that they are targeting 1.4-1.8 GHz on a .13 micron process.
This is where you should expect initial shipments to fall.
It is a new processor though, so you have to remember that...
* it will be MUCH faster than a G4 at a given clock speed... IBM posted early SPEC scores for a 1.8GHz part that come close to the 3GHz P4 and the upcomming 1.8 GHz AMD clawhammer. PPC970 seems to run SPEC about twice as fast as the G4.
* IBM stated that the current SPECs are likely to go up... they are currently testing pre-production silicon
* IBM has recently stated that the original projections were conservative and they have hinted that they might debut at around 2GHz.
* IBM will produce these .13micron chips at a new plant that is supposed to ramp up a .09 micron process in the first quarter of this year... we may see the 970 come out as a cooler/faster .09 micron part later this year (rather than the .13 micron part they are testing now).
Anyway... I doubt that the entire Apple line would move to a new 64bit PPC at the end of this year. The 'Pro' line would go first... That would be xServe, towers, and the Powerbooks (when the chips were running cool enough)... the consumer machines probably won't follow until sometime in 2004... depending on cost, heat, yield... of the new chip.
The good news is, the cream of the G4 crop will be available for consumer machines when the 970 moves into the pro line... MOTO is _supposed_ to hit 1.8GHz with the G4 later this year...
This is an entirely different family of processors. You can't base projected clock speed off of existing processors.
This will be a varient of the IBM Power4 processor, the PPC 970. It is a completely new processor (aside from the power4 roots).
IBM has already announced that they are targeting 1.4-1.8 GHz on a .13 micron process.
This is where you should expect initial shipments to fall.
It is a new processor though, so you have to remember that...
* it will be MUCH faster than a G4 at a given clock speed... IBM posted early SPEC scores for a 1.8GHz part that come close to the 3GHz P4 and the upcomming 1.8 GHz AMD clawhammer. PPC970 seems to run SPEC about twice as fast as the G4.
* IBM stated that the current SPECs are likely to go up... they are currently testing pre-production silicon
* IBM has recently stated that the original projections were conservative and they have hinted that they might debut at around 2GHz.
* IBM will produce these .13micron chips at a new plant that is supposed to ramp up a .09 micron process in the first quarter of this year... we may see the 970 come out as a cooler/faster .09 micron part later this year (rather than the .13 micron part they are testing now).
Anyway... I doubt that the entire Apple line would move to a new 64bit PPC at the end of this year. The 'Pro' line would go first... That would be xServe, towers, and the Powerbooks (when the chips were running cool enough)... the consumer machines probably won't follow until sometime in 2004... depending on cost, heat, yield... of the new chip.
The good news is, the cream of the G4 crop will be available for consumer machines when the 970 moves into the pro line... MOTO is _supposed_ to hit 1.8GHz with the G4 later this year...