IBM Says Macs Are Up to $543 Less Expensive Than PCs Over Time

[bollman]

Well, I was at JNUC last year when mr Previn first showed Macs@IBM and already then, I was sceptical about the savings.
I manage macs at a university using Casper, and we have about 1000 macs in the JAMF Pro system, and about 5000 PCs in some sort of SCCM.
The math is pretty clear: it's 2-3 times more expensive to give a mac to a user than a PC.
Firstly, the Mac is at least twice as expensive than a PC, and that is even though we have very nice deals on macs.
Secondly, a mac does not last as long as a PC. The macs can not take any spill, they get so dented and crooked when dropped that they have to be scrapped, since parts are too expensive compared to PCs.

Also, we have noticed that people tend to choose Macs for the looks, rather than use cases and that makes them less productive since they keep trying to learn the OS and tinker with settings rather than get down to work.

I remember raising an eyebrow at JNUC last year as IBM said that they had lowered their number of support calls since mac users tended to give each other help so no support calls where needed. I failed to see how letting highly paid engineers do computer support rather support tech would lower total costs. I still believe that those savings are BS. Letting uses install gigabytes of software, fiddle with settings are finding out how to get stuff to work might be cool for some users, but the savings are certainly not there. IT have probably lowered their costs a lot, but for the company as a whole, I think it's at loss.

 

[sudo1996]

This is what I've been saying all this time. Though, if they include the cost of dongles...

 

[asiga]

IBM seems to understand and appreciate the Mac like Apple used to do in the past.

I understand that iOS could help to sustain the Mac viability, but the fact is that Apple isn't taking advantage of iOS for helping the Mac survive, but for building a wealthy future where people no longer use flexible computers, but dumb gadgets.

So, I wish Apple sold the Mac division to IBM. Mac OS is a great UNIX operating system, and I'm sure IBM would take care of its future far better than Apple. I have an iPhone and two iPads, but they're not important for me, I could work without them. I just want that Mac OS has a guaranteed future on properly powerful boxes (no thin please), because I prefer it over Windows, the rest of BSD forks, and Linux. So, it's sad to see Apple is the worst fitted for doing this today.

 

[fischersd]

Firstly, the Mac is at least twice as expensive than a PC, and that is even though we have very nice deals on macs.
Secondly, a mac does not last as long as a PC. The macs can not take any spill, they get so dented and crooked when dropped that they have to be scrapped, since parts are too expensive compared to PCs.

Which PC's are you buying that they're THAT cheap? Again...I find that the Mac's have a longer lifespan than PC's (but that's been the history of the Windows OS becoming more bloated...a trend we've seen Microsoft reverse of late, so that could be changing).
The "spill" comment - never had a problem with people dropping PC's or laptops in the companies that I've worked - very rare (maybe the management team should be implementing some policies to have your users treating their equipment with respect).

Also, we have noticed that people tend to choose Macs for the looks, rather than use cases and that makes them less productive since they keep trying to learn the OS and tinker with settings rather than get down to work.

As with anything new, if they are unfamiliar with MacOS, they should be getting a training course before being issued a new system that they're unfamiliar with.

I remember raising an eyebrow at JNUC last year as IBM said that they had lowered their number of support calls since mac users tended to give each other help so no support calls where needed. I failed to see how letting highly paid engineers do computer support rather support tech would lower total costs. I still believe that those savings are BS. Letting uses install gigabytes of software, fiddle with settings are finding out how to get stuff to work might be cool for some users, but the savings are certainly not there. IT have probably lowered their costs a lot, but for the company as a whole, I think it's at loss.

Definitely agree with you here! If I found that expensive engineers were doing desktop support work I'd be drilling down to root cause pretty quickly. That hasn't been my experience that there's more "peer support". Part of the beauty of MacOS is that fewer patches mean fewer "touches" which results in less risk of breaking any of their applications (but, then, we also found Apple's better at ensuring their patches don't break any apps as well).

btw guys - I know it's a little dated, but here's a nice slide show on how Google's managing their 40k+ Macs in their enterprise (maybe some good open source tools that others can use): https://www.usenix.org/conference/lisa13/managing-macs-google-scale

Enterprise management tools are still evolving all of the time. I see that VMWare's Airwatch has now been extended to manage Macs as well. Something I'll be taking a look at down the road (also appears their VMWare App extender is available for Windows apps).

Edit: Ooh! Anyone had any experience with the Parallels plug-ins for for Mac for SCCM? http://www.parallels.com/ca/products/mac-management/

Edit2: Not a bad article here about Mac's in the Enterprise as well: http://www.infoworld.com/article/2918424/macs/the-truth-about-macs-in-the-enterprise.html

 

[scaramoosh]

The problem they have is lack of cooling and a weak ass GPU, so it's not possible to game on them very well.

 

[fischersd]

The problem they have is lack of cooling and a weak ass GPU, so it's not possible to game on them very well.

Heh...is that sarcasm or have you completely ignored 14 pages of discussion about using and managing Macs in the WORKPLACE???

 

[mtbgtr]

Actually it's because the Mac is cheaper to deploy and support but nice zing... what will you be complaining about after the 27th? I'm sure you'll find something.

No Kabylake?

 

[doctor-don]

This used to be true, but not so much anymore. Now a days, I get more calls from my friends with macs than PCs.

PLEASE READ: THIS IS MY OPINION. KEEP YOUR TROLLING AND FLAMING TO YOURSELF. MY OPINION DOES NOT REFLECT THAT OF TIM COOK, THE APPLE CULT, THE DIE HARD APPLE FANS, ANDROID FANS, OR TAYLOR SWIFT.

Is that because most of your friends have switched from PCs to Macs?
[doublepost=1477141119][/doublepost]My Early 2008 Mac Pro has had 8+ years of life with added RAM and replacement of the boot hard drive with a SSD. Yesterday I installed a new graphics card because the original one failed 2 days earlier.

Cooling (mentioned by another poster) is not the problem; dust is since the cooling fan draws air through the computer. I was hoping to see a better cooling system that could filter air before it entered the computer.

Since the 'new' Mac Pro has not been available since 2013, I am glad I didn't have to replace the entire computer … yet.

 

[neonart]

Well, I was at JNUC last year when mr Previn first showed Macs@IBM and already then, I was sceptical about the savings.
I manage macs at a university using Casper, and we have about 1000 macs in the JAMF Pro system, and about 5000 PCs in some sort of SCCM.
The math is pretty clear: it's 2-3 times more expensive to give a mac to a user than a PC.
Firstly, the Mac is at least twice as expensive than a PC, and that is even though we have very nice deals on macs.
Secondly, a mac does not last as long as a PC. The macs can not take any spill, they get so dented and crooked when dropped that they have to be scrapped, since parts are too expensive compared to PCs.

6000 computers deployed in a university indicates they're going to college kids and not adults in a business environment. So yes, a more expensive item upfront would be trashed and abused by kids. It's why you don't give your college kid a new sports/luxury car unless you plan to a lot for maintenance and accident repairs. You give them a cheap econobox until they learn to appreciate the good stuff.

It would seem in a professional environment, those Macs would not be getting beer spilled on them or dropped in druken late night raves. Lol.

 

[bollman]

Absolutely no student users, we are 7500 employees, almost 50000 students. People are disturbingly reckless with their computers, we've had people ruin their macs once a year, eventually we started giving those persons used computers instead of new, since they don't keep them long, we'd rather let them use computers on the way out anyways. Uni in Sweden is government owned so we have absolutely no leverage to make people pay for their careless behaviour.
We have no way of letting them pay for damaged equipment, and if we deny them a new computer, we fail at our work of providing IT.
Also, macs keep getting stolen. When we have break ins, PC usually stays on the desks, but all macs go.
According to my calculations from our computer database, a mac lasts in general 2,5 years, and a PC at least 4.

We buy Dell of HP, whomever gives us the best deal. Putting 2 different vendors against each other through 3 different distributors and buying volume gives us prices that sometimes seem impossible. 14" i5-computers with 8GB ram and SSD for less than $500.
For macs, we still buy the old 13" non-retina. It's still upgradeable so we can give users a standard 4GB/500GB setup and upgrade all the way to 16GB and 2TB SSD as new systems require more and the users may need more power. The 2,5GHz i5 is good enough for most uni users, and a lot of them consider the DVD-RW a great bonus.
This year we actually made a great deal through a distributor, paying only $800 for the 4/500 setup.

If the 27th brings macs that are even more expensive (more dongles) we are seriously considering stopping deployment of macs, and that's pretty tough, coming from the uni sysadmin of macs (me).

As for people choosing macs when they have no knowledge is nothing we can do anything about. People just requests computers from us, we have no right questioning it, unless it's screamingly obvious. When people come back and need help with macOS, they usually say something in line with "my boyfriend told me macs were better" or "my friend said they looked nicer", and they have no interest in learning macOS.

 

[fischersd]

Absolutely no student users, we are 7500 employees...and they have no interest in learning macOS.

Wow! That is one messed up environment!!! If I was the IT Director/CIO at that Uni, I'd probably only have windows systems then. If you don't have Macs in your catalog, then people can't request them.

 

[bollman]

Wow, that was a textbook example of taking things out of context!
Of course we have a lot of very careful, very knowledgable mac users, but it's the ones that choose macs for looks or by hearsay that usually have no interest in learning something new.

The uni is a crazy decenteralized workplace where most units are very self centered and make up their own rules. I only manage about 1000 macs whereas I know there are at least 2000 on the uni, but some choose not to participate in management.

 

[neonart]

That's rough bollman! Sorry you have deal with that!

 

[bollman]

To be honest, I don't see it that way. Instead of being able to just decide how people should use their computers, I/we have to "earn" our users trust and design a service that they actually want to be part of, not constantly wishing they were NOT a part of.

At last years JNUC, IBM got the question about their users having admin right and the risk of abuse, ie unlicensed software, people removing management framework, and so on. The answer: that is not how it works at IBM, if someone got caught doing that kind of stuff, they didn't have to come back tomorrow.
It's very easy to say that the users are happy with the service when IT decides how, when, what, and anyone that challenges or tries a different path just gets laid off. To be frank, I'm not sure IT should have that kind of power, but I do would like to have a little bit more power at my workplace

 

[MacsRgr8]

Apple lately in bed with:

Microsoft: (iPad Pro intro with Office 365)
IBM: (this article, and of course, the ol' PPC - especially the G5)
Cisco: (the newly announced partnership, based on CCX, QoS and iOS integration of Spark)

This is the Tim Cook style of managing Apple.

Who's next?
Google?

 

[Arty6]

What about Steve Jobs' $150 million deal with Microsoft in 1997 in exchange for MS Office and Internet Explorer on MACs?

 

[dilbert99]

Macs are continuing to grow in popularity with IBM employees, and 73 percent say they want their next machine to be a Mac.

No wonder, can you imagine comparing a standard business laptop to an Apple laptop, its like comparing a car with a tank. Which would you pick?

 

[Feenician]

No wonder, can you imagine comparing a standard business laptop to an Apple laptop, its like comparing a car with a tank. Which would you pick?

I've had the opportunity to do just that this week, having been required by a client to run a high end PC laptop side by side with my 15" rMBP. I am not amused. It's magnificent 4K screen is wasted on an OS that can't scale properly and consistently, updates are in my face seemingly constantly, the general inelegance and many control panels, styles and inconsistency of simple things like buttons are an absolute disgrace. I know how to use Windows, I know how to use Windows 10 and it "works" in the sense that you can run things on it but it is hot garbage.

 

[dilbert99]

I've had the opportunity to do just that this week, having been required by a client to run a high end PC laptop side by side with my 15" rMBP. I am not amused. It's magnificent 4K screen is wasted on an OS that can't scale properly and consistently, updates are in my face seemingly constantly, the general inelegance and many control panels, styles and inconsistency of simple things like buttons are an absolute disgrace. I know how to use Windows, I know how to use Windows 10 and it "works" in the sense that you can run things on it but it is hot garbage.

I would have been classed as an Apple fanboy in the past. I still use OSX on two MacBook Pros (MBP) and here is my take.
The mbp are fabulous looking machines, but the competition, I think has caught up. I don't like the soldered ram and glued battery from a consumer point of view, I don't think businesses will be concerned at this.

The program that I miss most on my rMPB is TextPad which I am a wiz at manipulating text files with regex. I tried to get to love BBExit/TextWrangler but just couldn't.

I did love the unix base of OSX, but Microsoft has made a smart move adding bash commands to Windows.

I find that OSX is a mouse driven OS that lacks in the keyboard shortcut department. You cannot get to the menu with the keyboard (I think) and you cannot change buttons in dialogs or dismiss them without using the mouse.
I need everything to be available via keyboard short cuts and OSX has few and when you do have them you need to do finger gymnastics and have a memory better than mine. Its a bitch swapping between OSX and Windows shortcuts although this lessens over the years as things get committed to muscle memory.

Apple kills off software too, replacing it with lesser versions.

 

[Feenician]

I would have been classed as an Apple fanboy in the past. I still use OSX on two MacBook Pros (MBP) and here is my take.
The mbp are fabulous looking machines, but the competition, I think has caught up. I don't like the soldered ram and glued battery from a consumer point of view, I don't think businesses will be concerned at this.

The program that I miss most on my rMPB is TextPad which I am a wiz at manipulating text files with regex. I tried to get to love BBExit/TextWrangler but just couldn't.

I did love the unix base of OSX, but Microsoft has made a smart move adding bash commands to Windows.

I find that OSX is a mouse driven OS that lacks in the keyboard shortcut department. You cannot get to the menu with the keyboard (I think) and you cannot change buttons in dialogs or dismiss them without using the mouse.
I need everything to be available via keyboard short cuts and OSX has few and when you do have them you need to do finger gymnastics and have a memory better than mine. Its a bitch swapping between OSX and Windows shortcuts although this lessens over the years as things get committed to muscle memory.

Apple kills off software too, replacing it with lesser versions.

Your main beefs, not being able to use the menus or dialog boxes with the keyboard are both possible and if you didn't know them, would have taken you seconds to Google. If you moved to a garbage mish-mash of Windows styles from 95 to, um, whatever the hell that is they are doing now, then I don't know what to tell you.

See this dialog?



You could have used the default "Move Focus to the menu" binding or changed it yourself to anything you wanted. See the option at the bottom the says "Full keyboard access"? If you'd just use the option "All controls" one of the buttons in dialogs would have been highlighted and you could use the keyboard to switch between them.

Maybe Windows 10, the OS of many control centers, suits you better. I'm ok with that.

 

[dilbert99]

Your main beefs, not being able to use the menus or dialog boxes with the keyboard are both possible and if you didn't know them, would have taken you seconds to Google. If you moved to a garbage mish-mash of Windows styles from 95 to, um, whatever the hell that is they are doing now, then I don't know what to tell you.

See this dialog?

View attachment 667373

You could have used the default "Move Focus to the menu" binding or changed it yourself to anything you wanted. See the option at the bottom the says "Full keyboard access"? If you'd just use the option "All controls" one of the buttons in dialogs would have been highlighted and you could use the keyboard to switch between them.

Maybe Windows 10, the OS of many control centers, suits you better. I'm ok with that.

Anger issues?

Thank for that, no amount of googling I have done has yielded those results. I'll try them out later when I'm from of my mac.

It still doesn't escape the fact that it doesn't "just work", Apple wants you to use the mouse and OSX is setup like that. It could be enabled by default and I still go through finger gymnastics every day. As for home and end functionality on a laptop it is inconsistent across apps.

I have been using OSX since 2007 so have a bit more courtesy in your answers. I find there are three types of poster on here, Apple trolls, Apple fanboys and Apple fanboys that are on he slippery slope to becoming a troll.

Why give a troll answer if your not happy with OS X, you know what to do...

Your main beefs are...

Don't get me started. Apple tried to quote me over $600 to replace a battery.

Here are some other beefs

I had to go out and buy a DVD drive to copy kids dvds.
I had to buy more ram than I initially needed because it is soldered on.
I had to buy a network dongle for when I needed direct access.
I had to replace all my 30 pin connectors with a non standard replacement, the lightning connector is good but they should have gone USB-C.
Their cables have reduced in quality and sheathing opening with increase frequency.
Almost every Apple device I own has been back to the store for one reason or another and I have spent a significant amount at Apple. (Dents, screen issues, hard drive issues, camera issues, battery issues, cable issues)
I was due to buy the iPhone 7 but I will never buy device that require a set of headphones that have a standard jack. I don't care how much courage Apple have.
The amount of features on AirPort Extreme is shocking.
Apple doesn't mind upsetting things like changing scrolling behavior and not making the previous the default.
Apple charges more than the competition for cloud storage.
It's Apples way of the highway for app developers. I should be able to load apps from any provider if I accept the issues.
Non standard screws crap.
Forced downloads to my devices.
Poor web services.
Took an age to get HomeKit off the ground which I was really wanting to get, now I'm not so sure on company should have so much power, which applies to things like Apple Pay too.
They took out FireWire while I was still using it.
Now they are planning to take out USB-A ports, SD slot, MagSafe if rumors are correct.
I hate the Apple memory tax, where Apple choose to charge more for higher capacity phones than the memory costs by a huge margin.
They don't put in micro SD card in phones. No removable battery. No wireless charging, no NFC, no oled screen. Waterproofing, about time, larger screens, about time. Do you remember their excuses for this.
I could go on but this is taking too long already.

What is the usual response to this, if you don't like it you know what it do. But the simple fact is that no one else can sell me an iOS or OS X device.

If anyone has suggestions as to what competition I should look at for laptop and phone, I'd be greatful.

The exchange rate is hurting Apple bad. It doesn't help having 200 billion in the bank while screwing customers.

Why have I been with Apple for almost 10 years?

It all started because we needed to iChat with a relative. That was a breeze compared to windows and evil Micro$oft.
The design of those devices was lovely. The syncing of my pictures and music. The ease of backups. The ecosystem between devices.
The new Apple TV where I can push to give instructions to Siri (apart from being infuriating at times with understanding the Scottish accent).
Slot loading DVD. Those trackpads are amazing.
The iPhone was amazing compared to what I had before.
I used to salivate during the keynotes thinking of how much I needed new shiny.
The Apple Watch is great compared to my Apple, but not sold on the design. It not fugly but is an improvement on the pebble.

 

[Feenician]

Anger issues?

You're lucky I read any further than this because nothing in my post suggested anger in any way.

For the rest of your post you seem to have transitioned from "I can't use keyboard shortcuts or simple preference panes" to crap like standard copy and paste complaints about screws that have nothing to do with the operation of a computer. Bonus points for "courage" and "Micro$oft". Really low level trolling

 

[bollman]

The keyboard navigation in Mac OS is miles behind Windows. There's a reason most people with disabilities use Windows.

 

[dilbert99]

You're lucky I read any further than this because nothing in my post suggested anger in any way.

For the rest of your post you seem to have transitioned from "I can't use keyboard shortcuts or simple preference panes" to crap like standard copy and paste complaints about screws that have nothing to do with the operation of a computer. Bonus points for "courage" and "Micro$oft". Really low level trolling

Perhaps Anger issues was the wrong term to use, but you seem like a bit of an Apple fanboy with typical responses.
Terms like
"suits you better. I'm ok with that"
"would have taken you seconds to Google"
"garbage mish-mash of Windows"
"to, um, whatever the hell that is they are doing now"
"then I don't know what to tell you"

come across condescending.

At the end of the day Apple state that they are there to improve things and enrich your life. That is not the case for me and lots of others any more.

I'm just pissed off with Apple. Any one thing isn't a biggy but when you add them altogether it feels like death by a thousand cuts. I guess thats why people like me irritate Apple fans like you and vice versa.
[doublepost=1477215650][/doublepost]

The keyboard navigation in Mac OS is miles behind Windows. There's a reason most people with disabilities use Windows.

Thats one of the things I'll be looking forward to if I do decide to ditch Apple.
[doublepost=1477216134][/doublepost]

If you'd just use the option "All controls" one of the buttons in dialogs would have been highlighted and you could use the keyboard to switch between them.

I tried that and it is a big improvement - thanks.
But you still can't get to the menu easily and select an option. You have many keypresses compared to Windows which is just not efficient. Keyboard access in OSX just isn't a patch on Windows.

 

[Pman17]

My 2012 16GB i7 MacBook Pro Retina will last me another 4 years.