IBM's POWER Event

[jesuscandle]

ps3?

Sony will be using the IBM chips for the playstation 3.

bah...I'm too lazy to find a source, but wasn't Sony working with Toshiba (?) to develop a whole new chip for the PS3? Seems like it would be a bigger deal to abandon that and follow MS to the PowerPC, no?

 

[MadMan]

Some notes from the press release

First mention was this:

POWER5, which is IBM's own high-end design using the Power Architecture, will drive future versions of IBM's industry-leading server and storage systems. The PowerPC implementation of Power Architecture will continue to serve the OEM community.

I think this bodes well for what ever the CPU is called, that Apple uses based on the POWER5. It looks like they will keep them pretty much in sync, at least development wise. It could also mean that Apple could also design it's OWN CPU, based upon this new "open architecture".

Second:

New Product and Demonstration

-- Power Blade -- the IBM eServer(TM) BladeCenter(TM) JS20 - the industry's first blade system based on Power Architecture. The Medical College of Wisconsin plans to implement the JS20 BladeCenter as the heart of the new computing infrastructure for proteomics research. Researchers at the University of Oregon Neuroinformatics Center will use the JS20 as part of an advanced Grid computing infrastructure to apply high-performance computing to diagnosing and treating brain-related conditions.

IBM is finally releasing their own product using the PPC970. It doesn't say that it's using the 970fx, but it could be. That could also explain what looks to be low availability of the 970fx.

Third:

-- Princeton University today announced it is installing a new Power-based system to support research into areas such as Alzheimer's disease, spinal cord injury, diabetes, strokes and heart disease. The results will be shared with more than two dozen institutions worldwide.

This looks to me like the same deal that Apple announced, when it said it had started shipping the xServe G5. This is also good news that IBM is including Apple's use of the product (even if Apple isn't mentioned by name) in their press blurbs.

Over all, it looks like IBM is in this for the VERY LONG haul, and that can only mean more good things for Apple.



MM

 

[wdlove]

What if Sony is purchasing chips from IBM to build their own desktop computers, and they have struck an exclusive deal with Steve to license OS X???

Maybe that will get this thread going...

I can't imagine that Steve would return to allowing a clone industry again. There was Power Computing in the 80's. My only relationship with the company was visiting there booth at MW Boston in 1987. Got a few free t-Shirts.

 

[Mr Maui]

MeThinks Apple will not pass the savings on to the consumer. They have found our pricepoint and they mean to soak us dry.

Accept the fact that Apple (and other companies) will charge whetever consumers are willing to pay.

People complain about Gas prices being too high at 1.80-2.00 per gallon, but I bet very few have cut back on their driving. Stop buying the product and the manufacturer or distributor will change their price structure quickly enough.

 

[Mr Maui]

Does this mean no G5 updates today?

Any "today" updates wouldhave been announced by now.

 

[whatever]

Kool, I can't wait to buy a PS3 with a blazing IBM G5 ($300.00), load up OS X codename Bad-Kittie ($129.00), plug in my BlueTooth Adapter ($40.00), discover my Apple wireless keyboard ($50.00) and mouse ($40.00) and attach it to my 60" Pioneer Elite Plasma screen ($20,000.00).

Now that's a Sooper 'puter!

Wait, is that a bridge for sale over there....

Whatever

 

[technocoy]

this is not for the playstation3

more likely it is for some other device (computer) sony, toshiba, and IBM are developing a new type of process called "cell" where the processors can be linked to others in home electronics, other PS3s, etc, to draw more power. only xBox and Nintendo are using the PPC for their systems so far.

hope that clears things up,
technocoy

 

[technocoy]

actually...

not that it is at all likely, but sony always has some locked propietary software on their windows systems as well. so it is not like apple would be committing "clonicide" again. it could very well run only on sony computers if they wanted it too. i hate to say it, but if apple were going to strike a deal with another image-conscious company, it seems like sony would be a good match. would also get apple to a much wider audience.

technocoy

 

[Omad0n]

As some people have already pointed out, it seems like it would be something for the next revision of the Playstation. Thoguh I imagine if that were the case it'd screw over the ability to play all legacy games. So perhaps it is a sign of future high end stuff from sony.

Most likely Sony will start making highend computers around the chips. Probably with a version of Linux/Unix. Those chips are a bit of an overkill for devices like dvd players or even TIVO type devices.

 

[Goalie_Ca]

What they probably mean ( i haven't rtfa, at work busy...) by hardware reconfiguration is something along the lines of an FPGA device, where there are "programmable fuses" and matrices of logic blocks. They're highly configurable hardware but slower and more expensive than a typical mass volume produced chip. Scientists and engineers have been using them for years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FPGA

You would program then in a language like vhdl or verilog.

 

[Veldek]

There is some interesting information about the PowerPC arch. in the PDFs IBM made available. This is what I gathered from it... In one of the documents it said the 970fx was 1.4-2.0+ GHz. Further down on the same page it said the bus speeds maxed out at 1.1 GHz. Using the present 970fx in production by Apple, does that mean the new 970fx can only get up to 2.2 GHz? That would certainly mean there is not an updated PowerMac using the 970 or 970fx. Which means Apple is waiting on the POWER5 to take off. The document I was referencing is found here:

http://www-306.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/techdocs/7874C7DA8607C0B287256BF3006FBE54/$file/PPC_QRG_2-22-04.pdf

What do you all think?

They needn't keep the 2:1 multiplier AFAIK. So we could see 3GHz PowerMacs with a 1GHz bus, for example.

 

[whatever]

T-1000

Are you sure when they mention " hardware reconfiguration " they're no referring to some type of technology similiar to the T-1000. John Connor isn't getting any younger.

 

[MacsRgr8]

They needn't keep the 2:1 multiplier AFAIK. So we could see 3GHz PowerMacs with a 1GHz bus, for example.

Well, let's put it this way: I bloody well hope so.....

 

[iChan]

Sony will be using the IBM chips for the playstation 3.

sony is using a unique custom-made CELL chip so-developed by Sony themselves, IBM and Toshiba.

 

[scifiman]

Yep, Sony will use it for the PS3 just as M$ is going to use IBM for xBOx 2. Gamecube already uses PowerPCs

Now if somebody could create a code-morpher between the two consoles....hmmm Play xbox only games on PS3 and viceversa, that would be sweet!!! It should be possible I would think since at their core they are the same chip (maybe just same series)

 

[jyvin]

They needn't keep the 2:1 multiplier AFAIK. So we could see 3GHz PowerMacs with a 1GHz bus, for example.

That may be your opinion but to me, that is one of the great things about the current line up offered by IBM. Also, there is nothing to indicate they would do this. All the 4 of the processors offered by IBM keep the half-the-processor bus speeds. Why would they change? Basically, I think there is no PowerMac updates until IBM produces and supplies the 970 version of the POWER5. Have they even announced they are working on it? I know before Apple introed the G5, we knew the 970 exsisted, right? Will Apple just be dropping POWER5 chips in the PowerMacs? I think there could be a lot of information in the documents IBM provided to indicate the actions Apple could be taking in the coming months.

 

[dxp4acu]

Maybe Cell that Sony and IBM have been working on is a Power derivative. That was always the rumor, anyway.

And no, Sony did not follow MS to IBM!!! The XBox is following Nintendo and then Sony to it, just as they follow in everything else, but that's another story...

That would be great if Apple could eventually see some benefits of Cell. Of course, not the actual Cell, but IBM will learn a thing or two about multi-processor computing in this.

 

[Veldek]

That may be your opinion but to me, that is one of the great things about the current line up offered by IBM. Also, there is nothing to indicate they would do this. All the 4 of the processors offered by IBM keep the half-the-processor bus speeds. Why would they change? Basically, I think there is no PowerMac updates until IBM produces and supplies the 970 version of the POWER5. Have they even announced they are working on it? I know before Apple introed the G5, we knew the 970 exsisted, right? Will Apple just be dropping POWER5 chips in the PowerMacs? I think there could be a lot of information in the documents IBM provided to indicate the actions Apple could be taking in the coming months.

Well, it's time someone gets in who really knows, but I'll say what I think to remember: at some processor speed a FSB at half this speed is too fast for the RAM, so that this speed isn't needed anymore and produces nothing but heat. That's when a multiplier like 3:1 is more than enough. More isn't always better...

Edit: And what is it that you want to see? A 2.2GHz PowerMac with 1.1GHz FSB at the top or a 3GHz PM with a 1GHz FSB? Be honest

 

[Eric_Z]

Will Apple just be dropping POWER5 chips in the PowerMacs?

Don't know if this means anyting but...

http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-powhist/

PowerPC 900 family
The 64-bit PowerPC 970, a single-core version of the POWER4, can process 200 instructions at once at speeds of up to 2 GHz and beyond -- all while consuming just tens of watts of power. Its low power consumption makes it a favorite with notebooks and other portable applications on the one hand, and with large server and storage farms on the other. Its 64-bit capability and single instruction multiple data (SIMD) unit accelerate computationally intensive workloads such as multimedia and graphics. It is used in Apple desktops, Apple Xserve servers, imaging applications, and -- increasingly -- in networking applications. The Apple Xserve G5 features the first use of the new PowerPC 970FX -- the first chip made using both strained silicon and SoI technologies together, enabling the chip to run at even greater speeds with even less power consumption.

POWER5™
Due out in 2004
Like the POWER3 and POWER4, the POWER5 unifies the POWER and PowerPC architectures. It will feature communications acceleration, chip multiprocessing, and simultaneous multithreading (SMT), for a reported performance gain of between 50 and 100 percent over the POWER4. It will make its appearance in a new line of servers that are code-named "Squadron" and in the teraflop ASCI Purple computer scheduled to be delivered to Lawrence Livermore in the second half of 2004.

 

[Wyvernspirit]

The clones were in the 90's

I can't imagine that Steve would return to allowing a clone industry again. There was Power Computing in the 80's. My only relationship with the company was visiting there booth at MW Boston in 1987. Got a few free t-Shirts.

Power computing was a mac clone maker in the mid 90's (just before steve came back, as he killed them clones). My guess would be that you visited that booth in 1997 not 87 as power computing wasn't available then.

I remeber going to the Power Computing Booths at MW Boston then last two years it was there. Always giving away prizes. Was sorry when it moved to NY. No way for me to go there.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[jyvin]

Well, it's time someone gets in who really knows, but I'll say what I think to remember: at some processor speed a FSB at half this speed is too fast for the RAM, so that this speed isn't needed anymore and produces nothing but heat. That's when a multiplier like 3:1 is more than enough. More isn't always better...

Edit: And what is it that you want to see? A 2.2GHz PowerMac with 1.1GHz FSB at the top or a 3GHz PM with a 1GHz FSB? Be honest

I am not saying it is better, I am just saying it is what it is. There is no evidence that IBM will be doing anything but keep the FSB half of the processor speed. And what I would like to see is another story. 2.2 GHz is not enough at this point. What scares me is that it could be a while before we see an update. Meaning, POWER4 was developed and then came a single-cored processor based on the POWER4 called the 970(fx). Now that we know the 970(fx) is not going past 2-2.2 GHz, that means we are waiting on the on a new processor based on the POWER5 (that has not even been bulk manufactured) to continue on the development of the Power Mac. Or, could Apple just be dropping the POWER5 in a Power Mac? Does this make sense? Opinions?

 

[Veldek]

I am not saying it is better, I am just saying it is what it is. There is no evidence that IBM will be doing anything but keep the FSB half of the processor speed. And what I would like to see is another story. 2.2 GHz is not enough at this point. What scares me is that it could be a while before we see an update. Meaning, POWER4 was developed and then came a single-cored processor based on the POWER4 called the 970(fx).

Agreed.

Now that we know the 970(fx) is not going past 2-2.2 GHz, that means we are waiting on the on a new processor based on the POWER5 (that has not even been bulk manufactured) to continue on the development of the Power Mac. Or, could Apple just be dropping the POWER5 in a Power Mac? Does this make sense? Opinions?

I'd be interested in opinions about this, too.

 

[tpjunkie]

What makes you think the 970FX isn't going to go any faster than 2.2 Ghz? I'd expect it to get to at least 2.8 ghz by summer, maybe even the 3.0 that Jobs predicted at the WWDC when the G5s were released. This die shrink to 90 nm just opened the door for more speed increases in the desktop models.

 

[Jack Reacher]

Evidence points to PS3 using IBM Power processors

sony is using a unique custom-made CELL chip so-developed by Sony themselves, IBM and Toshiba.

"The heart of the Playstation3 will be a new chip (or rather chip set) developed by Sony, Toshiba, and IBM. The companies will collectively invest more than $400 million to design a "supercomputer-on-a-chip" for the PS3. The name for this technology is "grid" (formerly called "cell") and appears to be targeted squarely at the possibilities of parallel and distributed computing over the internet."

"IBM expects to begin pilot production of grid (cell) microprocessors and other chips for Sony at its 300mm facility in East Fishkill, NY, during the first half of 2005." (For those of you who haven't made the pilgrimage, East Fishkill is the home of our beloved G5.)

Now reread today's press release:
"Sony today disclosed that it has licensed the Power Architecture from IBM. Sony said Power offers versatility and a unique combination of low power and high performance, making it optimal for a wide range of consumer devices." Sony came to the same realization as Apple and others: IBM's Power technology is the best microprocessor platform.

Why this is good news for the Macintosh.....
IBM has huge plants in the Fishkill and Wappingers Falls area of New York. IBM has the clout to ramp up production to meet demand. This is good news on the long run (higher production = stable supply).

Also, the research/development/production of the cell product will indirectly benefit Mac users. Unlike Motorola (who lost interest), IBM's Power technology has the tiger by the tail (greater interest = faster development).

On a side note......
I wonder if SJ has queried IBM about modifying their Power-based blades to accomodate Apple. I'm sure he envisions a Pixar renderfarm with Apple blades (I know I do)!

 

[jyvin]

What makes you think the 970FX isn't going to go any faster than 2.2 Ghz? I'd expect it to get to at least 2.8 ghz by summer, maybe even the 3.0 that Jobs predicted at the WWDC when the G5s were released. This die shrink to 90 nm just opened the door for more speed increases in the desktop models.

What makes me think that is this IBM PDF released.

http://www-306.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/techdocs/7874C7DA8607C0B287256BF3006FBE54/$file/PPC_QRG_2-22-04.pdf

I believe the 970fx was developed for computers like the Xserve, Powerbooks, etc. Computers where cooling is an issue. Power Macs have a lot more room for cooling than Xserves.