IBM's POWER Event

[Borg3of5]

So...

I'm confused. Since the Power5 chip will represent a potential 50-100% jump in processor speed, does this imply that Apple will be using the Power5 chips in G6's soon, as in next year or so?

 

[windowsblowsass]

not that it is at all likely, but sony always has some locked propietary software on their windows systems as well. so it is not like apple would be committing "clonicide" again. it could very well run only on sony computers if they wanted it too. i hate to say it, but if apple were going to strike a deal with another image-conscious company, it seems like sony would be a good match. would also get apple to a much wider audience.

technocoy

true remeber that sony apple alliance thing maybe thisis what their talking about

 

[jyvin]

true remeber that sony apple alliance thing maybe thisis what their talking about

Just because Sony has IBM develop a PowerPC processor, does not Apple would be getting into bed with Sony. To think so, would be reading way too much into it.

 

[otter-boy]

I'm confused. Since the Power5 chip will represent a potential 50-100% jump in processor speed, does this imply that Apple will be using the Power5 chips in G6's soon, as in next year or so?

Both IBM and Apple have said that they are developing the next generation chip in tandem. While this does not mean that the chips will come out at the same time, it does mean that they are working to get it out as soon as possible. I wouldn't expect there to be too much of a lag this time, especially since there seems to be a very large demand for these new 900 series PowerPC chips (in Apple comps and IBM's low-end servers).

 

[jyvin]

I'm confused. Since the Power5 chip will represent a potential 50-100% jump in processor speed, does this imply that Apple will be using the Power5 chips in G6's soon, as in next year or so?

From what I understand the POWER5 is a wicked processor. I don't think it is desktop material. I just hope IBM is currently developing the 970(fx) of the POWER5 and keeping it secret. If not, Apple and users could be upset when they want their 3 GHz Power Mac.

 

[jyvin]

Both IBM and Apple have said that they are developing the next generation chip in tandem. While this does not mean that the chips will come out at the same time, it does mean that they are working to get it out as soon as possible. I wouldn't expect there to be too much of a lag this time, especially since there seems to be a very large demand for these new 900 series PowerPC chips (in Apple comps and IBM's low-end servers).

When or where did IBM or Apple say that?

 

[tex210]

jyvin

What makes me think that is this IBM PDF released.

it also says... "the information contained in this document is provided on an "as is" basis." So take it with a grain.

 

[jyvin]

All I am saying is the PDF is the only FACTS that say we are or could be above 2.0 GHz.

 

[daveL]

When or where did IBM or Apple say that?

At WWDC last year, when the G5 was first introduced.

 

[iLilana]

hrm

none of this tech will dribble into apple machines.

 

[jyvin]

At WWDC last year, when the G5 was first introduced.

Jobs said it would be at 3 GHz in a year... he did not say how it would get there. That is the question of the day. A POWER5 based chip would get the speeds there but the POWER5 has not even been mass produced.

 

[jocknerd]

good stuff - but I too wonder of the implications for Apple (if there really are any current that need to be addressed) and I'm wondering if there's any mention of scalability of current chips.

and the deal with Sony being a new licensee - does that mean Sony's getting into the server market, or going to be using these chips in desktop models, or am I just misunderstanding?

Probably not. But it will power the next Play Station.

 

[shahn]

Playstation 3 and Xbox 2

Yes, this is old news. Sony has already leaked the info that PS3 will have IBM PowerPC processors. Interestingly, Microsoft also is using at least three PowerPC chips to power the Xbox 2.

 

[jettredmont]

"POWER5 will be the "brain" of a new line of powerful computer systems that will be introduced in 2004."

Hmm, one wonders what new line this will be...cough, Apple.

Um, no. ... cough, IBM.

IBM's line of servers utilizing POWER4+ will be replaced by a new line of servers utilizing the POWER5 chip.

Eventually, yes, the POWER5's little brudder will be in Apple's computers, just like the 970[fx] (Power4+'s little brother) is in the G5. But it is about three big manly steps beyond "unlikely" that the POWER5 itself will be in a desktop computer made by Apple or IBM or anyone else.

 

[Some_Big_Spoon]

This may have already been answered, but you can run YDL, or another PPC linux, on another partion right now, but not sure this is what you meant..

Now, if this means you can switch back and forth, as in fast user switching, running linux and OSX/unix at the same time, now that's an entirely different ballgame! And would be absolutely revolutionary.

But, having YDL and OSX talk to each other while running simultaniously would take software, which I'm sure someone will right (probably YDL).. heck, I'll write it!

Running multiple operating systems? Does that mean I could e.g. run OS X and Linux concurrently?

 

[Some_Big_Spoon]

Be prepared to be upset.

From what I understand the POWER5 is a wicked processor. I don't think it is desktop material. I just hope IBM is currently developing the 970(fx) of the POWER5 and keeping it secret. If not, Apple and users could be upset when they want their 3 GHz Power Mac.

 

[hvfsl]

I didn't think they would use the 970fx or anything, the powerpc chip architecture comes in different flavors ... like the chips that xbox and nintendo will use. Which brings up a new point ... PS3

The PS3 is using the Cell chip, it is completely different from PPC. The Cell chip is just being manufactured by IBM. Thats why I said it would most likely be used in a computer.

 

[Mr Maui]

Jobs said it would be at 3 GHz in a year... he did not say how it would get there. That is the question of the day. A POWER5 based chip would get the speeds there but the POWER5 has not even been mass produced.

That we know of ...

Nobody is talking right now!

 

[Rocketman]

At their POWER press event today, IBM announced a new Power licensee, new customers, and plans for reconfiguring processors.

I find it notable that NOWHERE in this release was Apple mentioned at all.

Rocketman

 

[roy_dan]

Intel Should License It!

I wish Intel would license IBM’s Power cpu technology. Apple could benefit from higher clock rates, higher yields and lower prices because Intel has far far far higher manufacturing standards (especially over AMD) and volume than any other cpu company. I worked for Intel in Fabs 6, 12 and 22 and speak from experience they are not as aligned with Microsoft as some many think. In many ways I believe Intel feels constrained my M$. Look at how they invested in Be and continue to invest in Linux. You think that makes M$ happy? Its not like Apple has to buy only from IBM! Plus unlike M$, Intel actually innovates and that could be another benifit for the Mac.

 

[Snowy_River]

MeThinks Apple will not pass the savings on to the consumer. They have found our pricepoint and they mean to soak us dry.

Soak us dry? Uh, don't you mean 'suck us dry'?

 

[manu chao]

All I am saying is the PDF is the only FACTS that say we are or could be above 2.0 GHz.

In a public presentation at a microprocessor conference in January or February 2004, IBM mentioned that the 970FX consumes less power at 2.5 Ghz than the 970 at 2.0 Ghz, they even quoted precise numbers which I don't remember exactly.

I think this makes it pretty clear that the 970FX can run at up to 2.5 Ghz, although there could (still) be relatively low yields at this speed. But I have never seen a chip manufacturer presenting precise numbers for the power consumption of a chip at a speed at which they did not expected to sell it in the near future.

 

[jettredmont]

Yes, this is old news. Sony has already leaked the info that PS3 will have IBM PowerPC processors. Interestingly, Microsoft also is using at least three PowerPC chips to power the Xbox 2.

Um, no. IBM says the two deals are distinct. Here's the Yahoo News blurb on the subject:

from http://biz.yahoo.com/rc/040331/tech_ibm_3.html

IBM said that Sony had agreed to license the Power architecture from IBM for use in consumer devices. That arrangement is separate from an earlier agreement in which the companies are collaborating on gaming chips.

Consumer devices could mean PCs, but more likely it means standard consumer electronics devices like stereo equipment, TVs, etc.

 

[jettredmont]

I am not saying it is better, I am just saying it is what it is. There is no evidence that IBM will be doing anything but keep the FSB half of the processor speed.

On the other hand, there is no evidence that IBM is wedded to the 2:1 ratio. Yes, of course if Apple's producing an SC that can keep up with a 1GHz FSB, it doesn't make a lick of sense to instead use a larger multiplier to yield a 667MHz FSB or somesuch. That would just be silly.

Thing is: up to now, there's been no major problem in the way of the 2:1 ratio. On the other hand, we have unofficial but public statements from IBM engineers which indicate that the chip was designed for multiple FSB ratios including 3:1 and 4:1 on top of 2:1.

Your supposition that IBM will see it can't get more than 1.1GHz on the FSB and say, "well, crap! We coulda shipped a set-the-world-afire 970fx running at 3GHz but I'm just too damned busy to flip the switch for that to have a 3:1 FSB ratio!"

IMHO, the one lacking evidence is you. Reason states that IBM will take the appropriate measures to produce a chip that stays on the top of the performance curve, real and percieved.

And what I would like to see is another story. 2.2 GHz is not enough at this point. What scares me is that it could be a while before we see an update. Meaning, POWER4 was developed and then came a single-cored processor based on the POWER4 called the 970(fx). Now that we know the 970(fx) is not going past 2-2.2 GHz, that means we are waiting on the on a new processor based on the POWER5 (that has not even been bulk manufactured) to continue on the development of the Power Mac. Or, could Apple just be dropping the POWER5 in a Power Mac? Does this make sense? Opinions?

Apple will NOT drop a Power5 into a desktop computer. That's just silliness. There's no way. You'd need a climate-controlled room with good ventilation and a bank account with a dozen grand floating around to put a Power5 chip on your desktop, and that doesn't take into account the rest of the computer. Not gonna happen.

 

[ssamani]

Bus Speeds, Embedded, Sony, POWER 5, etc.

What makes you think the 970FX isn't going to go any faster than 2.2 Ghz? I'd expect it to get to at least 2.8 ghz by summer, maybe even the 3.0 that Jobs predicted at the WWDC when the G5s were released. This die shrink to 90 nm just opened the door for more speed increases in the desktop models.

Its because the PDF says that the FX is limited to a 1.1 GHz Front Side Bus (FSB) and the rather big assumption that the CPU will go in a strict 2:1 ratio to bus speed, i.e., 2.2 GHz. In fact there is no reason to expect this to be the case, to whit:

http://www.arstechnica.com/cpu/03q2/ppc970-interview/ppc970-interview-2.html

I asked a few questions about the bus, like, does the 970 supported more than just a 2:1 (core clock:bus clock) bus ratio.

Peter Sandon(IBM): The processor design itself supports several ratios. The one that Apple announced was a 2:1 ratio. And the processor supports at least 3, 4 and 6 as other ratios.

So basically the 2.2 Ghz limit is pure gumpf guesswork.

Of note:
- Some of the companies licensing the Power Architecture are clearly embedded processor market users, e.g. L3 communications. So IBM is clearly going into big competition with Motorola on this front

- Opening up the architecture to allow partners to add functionality is very akin to ARM's processors (used in the Newton, etc.). Apple had lots of experience of adding functionality to processors through its relationship with ARM, which including significant stock holdings which were sold off to help generate their current cash pile.

- The likelyhood of the POWER5 being used in an Apple product or being dubbed the G6 is very remote. The POWER5 is intended for big iron. As per ArsTechnica's review of the 970 the POWER series sacrifice performance for reliability, so the 9xx series can sometimes outperform their dual core siblings. Unless Apple wants to expand Xserve into some seriously hard core computing, I reckon they will stick with the PPC 900's.

- Those that are concerned about the gap between the POWER4 and the PPC 970 and what that means for a similar POWER5 derivative need not worry. It seems as if the PPC 970 was developed specifically for Apple as quickly as they could, basing it on the POWER4. The plan moving forward was to develop the dual core (POWER5) and single core (PPC 9xx) successors in tandem, as IBM have made clear in the past. Interestingly IBM now refer to the single core as the PPC 900 series.

- Sony clearly plans to use a POWER / PPC derivative in the PS3 along with MS using something similar for the XBox 2. I'd have liked to have seen the p***ed off reaction at Sony when the MS decision was revealed.

- What really surprises me was the complete lack of mention of the PPC 970FX or any plans with the 970 series.

All IMHO, except for the bit about bus speeds and 2.2Ghz, which I am positive is gumpf.