I'm at a loss - switching TO windows? :o

[janstett]

Sure you can get into a Dell cheaper initially, just like you can buy a loaded Chevy
for less than a Toyota, but which one will end up costing you less in the long run.


The MacBooks allow you to run Mac OSX, Windows or Linux.

So you meet the job requirements of a Windows compatible machine without
sacrificing your freedom to use Mac OSX for everything else you want to do.

Buying with lowest bidder mentality generally results in false economy.

By the time you add A/V software and anti-malware software and add up the time it takes to maintain Windows, that lower initial cost is deceptive.

We can go tit-for-tat on this. Buying a MacBook to run OSX and Windows will also incurr the additional cost of an XP license that would come for free with your PC, plus IMO Parallels for running both at the same time is the best way which costs additional money. Plus most corporations have site licenses for things like Office which won't apply to the Mac version (that happened to me with my VPN, my company has a site license for Windows but we have to pay per license additional money for Linux and Mac).

So I think at best it's a wash; in reality it hurts the Mac more.

 

[matttrick]

honestly i agree. ill be happy having both available, having both a powerful desktop pc, and a sleek mac portable.

 

[kadajawi]

I haven't read anything, but about old technology... isn't Core Duo etc. based (very far off, sure...) on the Pentium Pro, which arrived in 1995?

Anyway, to get rid of the pop up you can use XP Antispy or so. There you should be able to switch this annoyance off (amongst other things).

 

[elvirav]

Oh . . . I am so unbelievably TIRED of hearing people trying to do the math and saying, "Well, for this amount of money I can get a Dell . . . "

It's like having someone try to talk me into buying a Beatles CD, when I have my heart set on Chopin. No matter how much cheaper the Beatles CD is, it's not going to give me what I want, so the price isn't an issue. What's the point of "saving money" on something I don't want, or won't give me all that I'm looking for? So put away the calculators, will you?

And saying that Macs are for people who don't want to learn how to use computers (I've heard that before), well, all I can do is give another at that.

I started out with Windows. I'm no whiz on Windows, but I can guarantee you that I know more about how to get around Windows than your average get-on-the-Internet-write-email Windows user. I'm ahead of the curve there.

I have little interest in tweaking and fiddling with my computer. Some people like that (and with OS X, they can do that), but I don't. I just want to do my work in Photoshop, Final Cut Pro (can I run Final Cut off of a Dell, by the way? ), and Dreamweaver. I have little interest in games. I love iLife. I love being able to surf the Internet without having to worry about spyware and viruses all the time.

But . . . if someone prefers Windows, that's fine. Sometimes that's the only option they've got, or feel they've got. Windows XP is a huge improvement over Windows 98. But it can't do for me what OS X can do.

 

[janstett]

Agreed, let him go. Oh, and tell him to have fun running Vista several months from now, making sure he realizes that it is an OS based on 2-year old technology (i.e. Tiger). Tell him you think it's funny he wants to run old technology, and then say, "But oh well, I guess some people like to pointlessly cripple themselves."

OK, I tried to ignore this one but it's eating away at me every time I see it.

It was really news to me that Vista is "based on <OSX> technology". Really. That's amazing. That should be headline news. OK, maybe you don't understand operating systems or just misused the term "technology".

Vista isn't based on Tiger or any version of OSX. Vista is based on XP, which is based on 2000, which is based on NT which was originally OS/2 3.0, designed in 1989. Tiger derives from NextStep which derives from Berkeley Unix which derives from AT&T Unix, which was born around 1972.

To call fancy gui eye-candy and tricks "technology", well, I guess that speaks to a segment of the Mac universe and their understanding of computers. If you use that logic, Lexus is based on Mercedes technology because one sort of looks like the other if you squint.

If you want to start arguing over GUI tricks, OSX is nice but hardly pioneering (remember Konfabulator came before Dashboard, for example), and StarDock's ObjectDesktop has been doing things OSX can only dream of for years. And go back earlier to OS/2's Workplace Shell which STILL has features no other shell can touch.

 

[janstett]

I haven't read anything, but about old technology... isn't Core Duo etc. based (very far off, sure...) on the Pentium Pro, which arrived in 1995?

Nope. To make a long story short, the Core Duo is a descendent of the Pentium III. Intel was going with a brute force approach up to the Pentium 4 and was running into the same heat/size/power issues as the G5 if not worse, and then thanks to an almost accidental project in Israel using the Pentium III for embedded systems, they rethought their approach and went back in the family tree to continue -- making the Pentium 4 somewhat of a dead end. The Core extends from the Pentium M which has its roots in the Pentium III.

I say bravo to Intel for having the balls to rethink it's approach and upset the applecart (no pun intended) big-time, essentially rethinking their entire product line. Knowing big companies, a lot of feathers were ruffled.

 

[furious]

Nope. To make a long story short, the Core Duo is a descendent of the Pentium III. Intel was going with a brute force approach up to the Pentium 4 and was running into the same heat/size/power issues as the G5 if not worse, and then thanks to an almost accidental project in Israel using the Pentium III for embedded systems, they rethought their approach and went back in the family tree to continue -- making the Pentium 4 somewhat of a dead end. The Core extends from the Pentium M which has its roots in the Pentium III.

I say bravo to Intel for having the balls to rethink it's approach and upset the applecart (no pun intended) big-time, essentially rethinking their entire product line. Knowing big companies, a lot of feathers were ruffled.

word

 

[matttrick]

Oh . . . I am so unbelievably TIRED of hearing people trying to do the math and saying, "Well, for this amount of money I can get a Dell . . . "

It's like having someone try to talk me into buying a Beatles CD, when I have my heart set on Chopin. No matter how much cheaper the Beatles CD is, it's not going to give me what I want, so the price isn't an issue. What's the point of "saving money" on something I don't want, or won't give me all that I'm looking for? So put away the calculators, will you?

And saying that Macs are for people who don't want to learn how to use computers (I've heard that before), well, all I can do is give another at that.

I started out with Windows. I'm no whiz on Windows, but I can guarantee you that I know more about how to get around Windows than your average get-on-the-Internet-write-email Windows user. I'm ahead of the curve there.

I have little interest in tweaking and fiddling with my computer. Some people like that (and with OS X, they can do that), but I don't. I just want to do my work in Photoshop, Final Cut Pro (can I run Final Cut off of a Dell, by the way? ), and Dreamweaver. I have little interest in games. I love iLife. I love being able to surf the Internet without having to worry about spyware and viruses all the time.

But . . . if someone prefers Windows, that's fine. Sometimes that's the only option they've got, or feel they've got. Windows XP is a huge improvement over Windows 98. But it can't do for me what OS X can do.

you can be tired of it all you want, but its true. you will get more raw power out of a cheaper dell (or most any pc) than you will a mac. sure the mac has better design and more stability.

but other than that it comes down to whether you want to play games, or whether you want those few (yet very nice) productivity programs macs have. i surf the internet without worrying about spyware and virii everyday on my pc, so i dunno what your problem is.

you dont have interest in games, and you love iLife, so its no surprise you prefer os x and thats perfectly fine. i happen to want the best of both. but make no mistake, go run 3dmark on a mac, and then a pc and watch what happens.

 

[savar]

Well, if his sole reason for switching is that there's nothing he can't do on Windows, he's probably mostly right, especially if he's looking at e-mail, internet, gaming, etc.

The pluses for the Mac aren't what you can do instead, but more what you don't have to do, such as virus checking, spyware checking, adware checking. Windows.

If he's tried the Mac and just prefers Windows, I'd say let him be. And try to buy his PB for cheap.

I don't understand why people here think they need to convince the rest of the world to buy macs. Is it insecurity?

If somebody asks why I have a Mac, I will tell them. But I won't go out of my to make them buy one...it doesn't affect me at all what they finally choose.

But re: the above post, I would add that Macs are all about what you can do that you can't do with Windows. The reason I like Macs is that as soon as you take it out of the box and turn it on, you already have an awesome movie editor, DVD editor, multi-track music recorder, and video chat.

You don't have to install anything or type in any registration codes, or go back to the store because the version of GarageBand you bought isn't compatible with your OS/CPU/motherboard/etc/etc.

The one thing I can agree on in the above post: buy his PB off him for cheap. If he doesn't value it highly enough don't let that bum you out, turn a profit on it.

 

[savar]

Yea the dock is pretty annoying I wish I can turn that piece of **** off. The guy at the apple store told me my mac will never crash but my macbook just crashed several days ago. The only thing I was doing was listening to itunes..... And today I was recording a song with garage band after laying down the last track I hit save and it rebooted I was like wtf!!!! 2 hrs of work gone to waste. The machine restarted and I was surprise there wasn't even a recovered mode. So good for the perfect mac.

You can turn the dock off. There's some free app out there that does it for you, but basically the idea is this: Rename the Dock.app package to something else, then put a dummy application in its place that does nothing. Kill the Dock process (killall Dock.app), and when the system tries to restart it runs your dummy app instead.

Honestly I like the dock...obviously it has some big flaws, but with a few tweaks it would be quite usable.

 

[joelypolly]

Being a Microsoft certified guy I use a Mac at work doing .Net programming. And this is seriously cool platform to do it on. I have a MBP hooked up to a 30" ACD and I have to say ... its the best of both worlds. To those who say you can get a Dell for cheaper .. it is true but then you can also choose to get a Dell that is the same price as a Mac. Apple just choose not to make the cheaper laptops that dell makes.
Apple probably could but they don't so you'll just have to live with it. To borrow a car analogy Honda/Acura(dell) make cars that range from 20k to 200k and say AstonMartin(apple) make cars that are 150K+. If you compare products around the same price and catagory you won't find to much of a difference (personal taste doesn't count)

 

[elvirav]

you can be tired of it all you want, but its true. you will get more raw power out of a cheaper dell (or most any pc) than you will a mac. sure the mac has better design and more stability.

Uh, did you even read what I was saying?

If I'm looking for a CD with Chopin music, why would someone start talking about a Beatles CD, simply because it's cheaper, or because they like it better? What sort of sense does that make? It's not about what they are looking for, but about what I am looking for. Trying to talk someone like me into getting a PC (because it's "cheaper") makes about as much sense as trying to talk a Chopin fan into buying a Beatles CD. It's a waste of time. It's annoying.

but other than that it comes down to whether you want to play games,

I don't. I don't play games.

or whether you want those few (yet very nice) productivity programs macs have.

Those nice productivity programs help support me.

i surf the internet without worrying about spyware and virii everyday on my pc, so i dunno what your problem is.

So, you're telling me that you surf the Internet without ever installing anti-virus software of any kind? Because a lot of Mac users can do that.

you dont have interest in games, and you love iLife, so its no surprise you prefer os x and thats perfectly fine.

Then why waste time trying to tell me (or others like me) that a Dell is cheaper? Like, that has nothing to do with us.

what does that i happen to want the best of both. but make no mistake, go run 3dmark on a mac, and then a pc and watch what happens.

A PC can't run Final Cut Pro. It doesn't run iLife. Whether it runs 3D faster or slower than a Mac is insignificant to me.

This is one of those subjects that goes round and round in circles. I am trying to explain why I get sick of hearing, "Well, for that amount of money I could get a Dell." Or "Why are you spending more for a Mac? You can save money with a Dell."

Do you get why (for many of us), starting a dialog like that makes no sense and is a complete and utter waste of time?

 

[matttrick]

Uh, did you even read what I was saying?

If I'm looking for a CD with Chopin music, why would someone start talking about a Beatles CD, simply because it's cheaper, or because they like it better? What sort of sense does that make? It's not about what they are looking for, but about what I am looking for. Trying to talk someone like me into getting a PC (because it's "cheaper") makes about as much sense as trying to talk a Chopin fan into buying a Beatles CD. It's a waste of time. It's annoying.


I don't. I don't play games.

Those nice productivity programs help support me.

So, you're telling me that you surf the Internet without ever installing anti-virus software of any kind? Because a lot of Mac users can do that.


Then why waste time trying to tell me (or others like me) that a Dell is cheaper? Like, that has nothing to do with us.

A PC can't run Final Cut Pro. It doesn't run iLife. Whether it runs 3D faster or slower than a Mac is insignificant to me.

This is one of those subjects that goes round and round in circles. I am trying to explain why I get sick of hearing, "Well, for that amount of money I could get a Dell." Or "Why are you spending more for a Mac? You can save money with a Dell."

Do you get why (for many of us), starting a dialog like that makes no sense and is a complete and utter waste of time?

this topic is about switching to windows. i dont know why the hell youre bringing up this chopin argument (love his nocturnes btw). im not talking you into anything, im addressing the topic.

no one cares if you play games or not. no one cares if you need the productivity software. this discussion is about why people would use windows. not your personal preference.

my point about virii wasnt that mac users couldnt surf without security software. my point is that people over exadurate the importance of antivirus software dramatically. that and they act like its hard and so annoying to do so if they feel so inclined. i use a free spyware program that runs automatically. downloaded in about 10 seconds. and i use an online virus scanner (also free) maybe 3 times a year, and i never have anything of any signifigance.

why waste time telling me about why you like OS X? it doesnt concern me. once again the topic of this thread is why anyone would change to windows. you came in here looking for a totally different argument.

 

[elvirav]

this topic is about switching to windows. i dont know why the hell youre bringing up this chopin argument (love his nocturnes btw). im not talking you into anything, im addressing the topic.

So why on earth did you even respond to me? I was specifically talking about how sick I am of hearing people tell me (and other satisfied Mac users) how a Dell is cheaper, yadda yadda.

We don't want to hear it. We don't care. Anymore than we want to hear about the Beatles if we're in the mood for Chopin.

this discussion is about why people would use windows. not your personal preference.

Gee, so your point is that a Dell (on the face of it) appears to be cheaper? And that's why some people would buy it? Yeah, I think we all got that a long time ago. (Like about ten years ago.)

my point is that people over exadurate the importance of antivirus software dramatically.

I don't think so. Just recently a bunch of people on another message board I frequent were all visiting the same site, that had become infected with a worm or trojan. TONS of people's computers were infected. I think at least two people had to have special IT guys come in to fix their problems. PCs were out of commission while the virus was sorted out. I visited that same site. I got nothing.

that and they act like its hard and so annoying to do so if they feel so inclined.

It's more hard and annoying than not having to do it at all.

I have a PC too. I use free virus software. (It's nice software, I think.) So I do know what it's like. It's more of a hassle than running a Mac. Even though I've never gotten a virus on the PC (well, I'm hardly on the PC), I know that the possibility is very real when I'm on the PC. I also know that possibility is extremely unlikely when I'm on the Mac.

why waste time telling me about why you like OS X? it doesnt concern me. once again the topic of this thread is why anyone would change to windows.

I already addressed why people would use Windows in my first post. I conceded that some people might want to use it, and that was fine. (I even said something nice about Windows XP, for crying out loud! )

you came in here looking for a totally different argument.

I was specific in laying out what my point was. If it wasn't what you were talking about (and you are claiming that it wasn't), then I don't know why you didn't just skim on by . . .

 

[matttrick]

because its off topic.

and no, my point isnt that a dell is cheaper. that was an example. PC's in general are cheaper and offer more raw performance. i also know of alot of people who would like a mac but simply cannot afford it.

and yes, the need for security software is highly exadurated, unless you are working with sensitive data. you pretty much have to be doing something stupid to get them, period.

most people are browsing porn sites or downloading illegal warez when they get them. that or they arent careful about what software they download and install that may come bundled with crap. which, by the way, isnt windows fault. its the fault of greedy software companies who whore themselves out.

just becaue people needed an IT guy to fix the problem means nothing. ive worked with people who had IT down because they couldnt double click to open a program (dunno how the hell they got a job at abbott labs... ).

i get the annoyance factor windows can carry. and i also get the inverse appeal that OS X has. i applaud it.

anyway we are hijacking this thread for our own argument so i think we should just let this be

 

[savar]

and yes, the need for security software is highly exadurated, unless you are

I'm sorry, I have to jump in here. It's spelled "exaggerate".

most people are browsing porn sites or downloading illegal warez when they get them. that or they arent careful about what software they download and install that may come bundled with crap. which, by the way, isnt windows fault. its the fault of greedy software companies who whore themselves out.

Ehh, I don't think this is how "most people" get spyware or viruses. Keep in mind that a brand new out-of-the-box PC can be infected in less time than it takes you download the latest security updates and install them. It has been documented that PCs are infected as quickly as 10-20 minutes. That's scary.

There are people out there who are constantly port-scanning, trying to exploit very common weaknesses in windows. If they scan your IP while you happen to be downloading the latest updates -- then they got you. Game over.

There are security exploits on all platforms, but the fact that a default install has so many that are so easily exploited -- that bothers me. SecureBSD once had a record of over 2 years without a hole in the default install, and that's a small outfit who's code is being used in a lot of places.

The only PCs I use are imaged by an IT department before I ever start using them, so that I've got all the updates and AV software I need. All new updates are automatically installed, and if I ever get a virus I'm sending the whole thing straight back to IT.

 

[aristobrat]

ive been using since 3.1 (and even before without windows)

i surf the internet without worrying about spyware and virii everyday on my pc, so i dunno what your problem is.

You have ~16 years of Microsoft OS experience.

I think the only problem here is that you seem to think that everyone should have the same amount of knowledge as you do.

When it comes to situations where the majority of folks are having problems with spyware and viruses, it's really not to your advantage to say "look at me, I don't understand why you can't just be like me, I don't understand what your problem is." because you're obviously in a league of your own. Why isn't this obvious to you?

 

[aristobrat]

There are people out there who are constantly port-scanning, trying to exploit very common weaknesses in windows. If they scan your IP while you happen to be downloading the latest updates -- then they got you. Game over.

Yup.

This is such an issue that Microsoft added a feature to Vista (and Server 2003 R2) that blocks *all* incoming network traffic until after you have had a chance to run Windows Update and install your antivirus and spyware programs.

But hey, Windows gaming performance is where it's at, so ...

 

[elvirav]

because its off topic.

Then tell me it's "off topic" and skim on by. No need to waste your time responding to me.

and no, my point isnt that a dell is cheaper. that was an example. PC's in general are cheaper and offer more raw performance. i also know of alot of people who would like a mac but simply cannot afford it.

And so? That wasn't my point, or where I was going with my comments, so why did you tell this all to me?

most people are browsing porn sites or downloading illegal warez when they get them. that or they arent careful about what software they download and install that may come bundled with crap. which, by the way, isnt windows fault. its the fault of greedy software companies who whore themselves out.

The site that infected so many of my friends' computers was a simple HTML site, not at all relating to porn. Just a plain, G-rated entertainment site.

just becaue people needed an IT guy to fix the problem means nothing. ive worked with people who had IT down because they couldnt double click to open a program (dunno how the hell they got a job at abbott labs... ).

The point is that people got a virus and it was enough of a problem that they called in IT guy. That means something. Just because they're (possibly) incompetent and got a virus (from a G-rated entertainment site) doesn't mean that they didn't get the virus or that they didn't need the IT guy. They did. The problems happened for them—they were examples of your average Windows user. These were problems that I didn't have any chance of encountering, even if I was the greenest of computer newbies.

 

[goldmotorola]

One less person in line when we go to an Apple store.

 

[0010101]

I was a die hard Mac user since about 1986 or so, right up thru OS9.. for the Windows only apps, i'd run Windows 98SE under Virtual PC, and it ran better on that 233MHz PowerBook than it did on most 'real' PC's.

When Windows XP came out, I liked it. It seemed stable, was way cheaper to buy hardware, and ran everything I needed to run.

I used XP for the next few years, but with the growing number of spyware/adware/iCritters running around, I found myself knee deep in virus protection/firewall/spyware software, and spending more time trying to flush my system out than actually using or enjoying my computer.

I got ahold of a secondhand Mac with OSX 10.3 on it a little over a year ago now and within 3 days of getting the Mac, my PC with XP was sitting in a closet collecting dust.

Gone are the days of sifting thru the registery trying to root out a bug or bit of malware.. gone are the days of having system resources hogged up by bloated anti-virus software programs. No more special program required to block unwanted popup ads.. and no more 'blue screens of death'.

My Mac runs as well as the day the OS was first installed. My wifes PC has to have the hard drive wiped and the OS re-installed every 3 or four months to flush out all the crap she picks up that slips in under the virus protection software.

I do miss Paint Shop Pro.. and one or two other applications that are PC only.. but there are, of course, MacOS applications that work as well or better.

Altho, I will say this.. as MacOS X becomes more and more popular, expect the number of Mac specific 'bugs' to increase. The reason they don't exsist today isn't because they're impossible to make, it's because the people making them aren't interested in a computer system that only represents a small percentage of computers.

The same reason why most games aren't ported to the Mac.

 

[jaycrew]

I originally started out on PCs and then made the switch to Macs. However, for school purposes I've gone back to a PC as my primary computer although I still have my Macs around.

I must say, you don't realize how good Mac OS X is until you use a PC for an extended period of time.

I don't have any trouble running this PC, but with Macs, it's the little things that make the experience of using a Mac more enjoyable. I'll probably make the switch back, permanently, once Apple release Core 2 Macbooks.

 

[hulugu]

I must say, you don't realize how good Mac OS X is until you use a PC for an extended period of time.

I'm always unpleasantly surprised by just how awkward Windows is. Building a wireless network with 4 Windows machines was an exercise in frustration with moments of blind fury and bitterness.

Add to the mix all the antivirus utilities like Norton System Works (damn you Symantec!), weird .exe files that just suddenly stop working (and the quick google search to see if it's a show-stopper), not to mention the odd hardware problem and all the gotchas associated with Windows CDs (you cannot upgrade Windows 2000 Pro to XP Pro using the CD from Dell, for example) Windows is far more difficult than it should be.

I once likened OS X to a imaginary club where gratis drinks are served by beautiful waitresses, the music is great, the booths well-designed, and the food is amazing. Windows is the cacaphony of Joe's Crab Shack, with mediocre food and the constant assault of one-hit wonders and surly, time-pressed wait staff who are forced to ask 30 questions to accertain your knowledge of the daily specials, the appetizers, drink specials, desert, etc.

But, maybe I just don't like Joe's Crab Shack.

 

[dpaanlka]

Well, Macs are better at multitasking, avoiding viruses, and all the Apple programs are better integrated with each other, work better with each other than anything on Windows does. Think about it...

iTunes
iMovie
GarageBand
iPhoto
iWeb
Address Book
Pages
Keynote
iDVD

ALL work together in such a substantial, fluid, intelligent way. What other set of Apps has such a wide scope and is yet so well integrated as iLife + iWork?