I'm not looking for an OEM disc, am I?

Discussion in 'Windows, Linux & Others on the Mac' started by Dark Void, Jun 21, 2011.

  1. Dark Void macrumors 68030

    Dark Void

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    #1
    Hello,

    It is my recent understanding that a Windows 7 OEM disc is for those that want to do something such as resell and need some sort of pre-installation of the operating system, and it is not for consumers. Is this correct?

    Now, the extra cost is enough to deal with, however I want to make sure that I am getting the right thing. All I want to do is run Windows 7 Home Premium on my MacBook Pro in a separate partition. This is what I want as opposed to this, yes?

    I believe that my local retail store only sells the "Vista Upgrade" Windows 7 Home Premium disc. It may have the retail copy of Windows 7 Home Premium that I posted as the first link but I would have to check. I have heard of people doing some sort of double install with this in order to have a working copy of Windows 7. I could be wrong about that as is was quite a while ago that I was reading about it but this is certainly not what I want even if it's possible. I simply want a copy of Windows 7 Home Premium on its own that is not an upgrade of any sort that will run smoothly on my MacBook Pro. Am I looking at the right purchase now (first link)?

    Thank you.
     
  2. balamw Moderator

    balamw

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  3. Dark Void thread starter macrumors 68030

    Dark Void

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    #3
    thank you. :]
     
  4. vagabondlife4me macrumors newbie

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    #4
    OEM is A-OK

    OEM = No phone support and technically one machine to install it on + Cheaper price

    Retail= Phone support + the ability to install it on a different machine when you are done with the other one + higher price.

    Both work the same, the licensing is just a bit different.
     
  5. dlimes13 macrumors 6502a

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    #5

    Exactly. OEM is the way to go if you know what you're doing.
     
  6. Dark Void thread starter macrumors 68030

    Dark Void

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    #6
    alright, thanks for the information. i'm not doing this anytime soon (looking to get a PC desktop first), but perhaps once I have the money I will consider both and make a decision from there...based on a financial standpoint.

    thanks again for the posts.
     
  7. balamw Moderator

    balamw

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    #7
    The factor that you didn't mention is that OEM is licensed only for System Builders, not end users, and acceptance of the license requires resale of the system to an unrelated third party.

    If you are willing to bend the license you can often get a Windows 7 upgrade license, which also "works" just fine without any other Vista or XP licenses. You just have to perform one extra step during the install (either edit the registry) or install twice.

    Unlike OEM, the retail upgrade is licensed to end users, and is easier to transfer to another computer when you upgrade, and it is often cheaper than OEM.

    B
     
  8. Dark Void thread starter macrumors 68030

    Dark Void

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    #8
    considering all of this, if i ever dual-boot my mac, i will definitely just go with the retail copy.

    with win7 being so expensive on it's own, i just decided to get another laptop for now instead. you can get them quite cheap with nice specs and it comes with win7 preloaded so it just makes more sense to me right now. having two computers vs 1 with osx/boot camped win7 just seems more reliable, as my 3 yr old desktop has essentially crapped out, and i hope to get a nice new gaming desktop in the distant future.

    thanks for the posts everyone.
     
  9. Dark Void thread starter macrumors 68030

    Dark Void

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    #9
    I decided to give this a bump as I have more to address now that I have more understanding (certainly not a "full" understanding) on this and a more formulated question, plus an update.

    My budget now allows for a cheap Windows Laptop/NetBook and a Windows 7 installation disc, and I have a few more questions. I will be getting both for some versatility and extra hardware as well as a backup/office computer. I just prefer laptops, so I will be going with that.

    I am basically going for the retail copy of Windows 7 Home Premium (typically $189.00) because I want the most flexibility and legitimacy out of my license, wouldn't mind the Microsoft support (although I would argue that I am decently versed in Windows), and love the idea of being able to reuse the disk as well. I will be using it to dual-boot my Mac for some moderate gaming.

    If I do go with the retail copy and I decide to stop using the partition that corresponds with that disk on my Mac a few years from now, I should be able to just delete the partition and use the disk on any other system without issue, right? Is there any cap to how many different systems that this disk can be installed on, or is it as many as I want so long as it is not on more than one computer at a time?

    I do like the price of the OEM copies or even the Vista Upgrade copies but I would just prefer having the retail copy for personal peace of mind.

    Thanks.
     
  10. Hyper-X, Jul 16, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2011

    Hyper-X macrumors 6502a

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    #10
    How you are able to comment on the details of licensing then in the same post mention how a user can circumvent the actual intent of Upgrade products when it is clearly designed in mind to be used to upgrade an existing, qualifying, licensed product or installation. Please show me where a retail Upgrade OS is meant to be used via its EULA or any official licensing by altering the registry and/or by installing it twice.

    Transferring an OEM product isn't hard unless the end user intends on keeping the machine in which it was installed on and transferring/selling just the OEM OS, then naturally that is a violation of the terms of use. If the user intends on selling the entire machine with the OEM OS still installed on it, that's perfectly legal. I have never heard of many cases, very isolated if any, where a user intends on keeping the old machine and just wants to sell the "used" OS. Most people, clients, consumers, end users and professionals would prefer to simply purchase a new license for their purposes, not buy something already used by someone else even if it was possible and/or legal.

    Can the OP use an OEM product? Yes he can. Is it legal? Microsoft states even they aren't 100% crystal clear about it either, their primary concern has always been about support. Like a previous poster said, if you purchase the OEM product, the main issue there is the user is on their own, Microsoft will not and has no commitment/responsibility to support OEM products directly with end users.

    If the OP anticipates that they might need Microsoft support, then the retail box editon is the only option, not Upgrade. If the OP intends on using anything he/she can get their hands on and make it work, the options aren't limited to just the Upgrade edition. If the OP intends on taking his/her chances with the OEM disc version, that'll work just fine as long as they understand that primary support for OEM OS with the vendor is almost 99% limited to whether the product (disc, product key) is damaged/illegible or otherwise and a direct exchange for the same product is in order... determined by the vendor in which is incredibly uncommon.
     
  11. balamw, Jul 16, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2011

    balamw Moderator

    balamw

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    #11
    You are not reading what I am saying.

    I did not disagree in any way with vagabondlife4me that OEM would work. I merely pointed out that, according to public links I have posted many times here and disclaimers on most web sites that sell OEM licenses, OEM is sold under the terms that it is licensed under the terms of the System Builder's License and not an End User License Agreement.

    I am quite consistent with my point:

    Full Retail package = no questions, fully licensable on a Mac, supported by both Microsoft and Apple. Unfortunately it costs about twice as much as OEM or Retail Upgrade.

    OEM = do you believe you qualify as a System Builder and understand that it is not exactly the same as a retail version in several subtle ways. (EDIT: These ways may or not be important to a given user, but they are nevertheless present.)

    Retail Upgrade = do you believe you qualify for upgrade pricing, because it sure as heck doesn't really check. (EDIT: If OEM is as easily transferable as you make it out to be, then just having had a computer with XP or Vista OEM on it that is no longer in use should be enough to qualify for upgrade pricing, no? Many of us have old computers that have died and gone to the datacenter in the sky.)

    Since price/cost is usually the factor that takes people from Full Retail to OEM, why not consider another equally questionable option that is usually in the same price range?

    Personal peace of mind is priceless.

    Retail versions, both full and upgrade, will usually reactivate automatically online when they are installed on new hardware, and the EULA provides limited transfer rights, so as long as you keep up your end of the bargain, Microsoft should hold up theirs. I say usually, because I can't know for sure how Microsoft will act in the future.

    I have heard that there appears to be a timer that will raise a flag and force you to call Microsoft to activate if there are more than X many activations in a period of Y months on different hardware. I don't know what X and Y are or how different the hardware needs to be. I have an old XP license that I have moved to different hardware every couple of years without ever having to activate by phone.

    B
     
  12. Hyper-X, Jul 16, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2011

    Hyper-X macrumors 6502a

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    #12
    I quoted your entire post exactly, if what you're saying is that I didn't interpret what you said, then that's a whole other issue.

    I never said anything about whether you had any objections to vagabond's post. Not sure why you're trying so hard to take a stance on pretending like you're an official rep for Microsoft and/or attorney to discuss details to any of their terms for distribution and/or EULA. Show me that you're a SME (subject matter expert) officially recognized by MS then I'll retract my comments in regards to the related conflicting topics, however until you do my understanding is you're no better qualified than what's already known by many professionals, distributors, partners or otherwise.

    You stated in another thread that you are no more than an end-user, whom apparently attended many OEM SB Workshops, which are limited to only Registered Partners as far back as I can remember since the NT 3.5 days because those events usually involve tools not meant to be used by raw end users, which for many reasons I can't believe. A System Builder is anyone, an End User may be a SB. An OEM is a Registered and Licensed Professional Entity/Partner.

    As such, your only indisputable option is the retail box full edition OS as far as you're concerned, assuming you're preaching everything about licensing and terms of MS's products and all the legality behind them all.

    I on the other hand work as an OEM, thus do have OEM products in-stock and offer services in support of. I have the ability to sell OEM OS's legally via local installation onto the client's computer prior to them taking it home. Product support is limited to our company's policies for OEM products, to make a long matter short, it only deals with the installation service to ensure it was properly done, IAW (in accordance with) requirements by MS and our company and to ensure our clients that our sources for those products come from authorized channels.

    Negative. Your exact post is as follows...

    Legal matters in one section of the post, then following up about circumventing the intent on how Upgrade products are meant to be used...

    If the issue is what "works", then retail Upgrade is not the only option, you could go as far as migrate an existing installation from another machine then do all the changes to "make it work"... but why act like you're preaching legality via licensing and EULA's then. You might as well post links to torrents and cracks if that's the case.

    Can't compare Retail Upgrade to OEM or Full Retail. Again the intent of Upgrade is to apply it to an existing product or installation, which neither the OEM nor Retail is required to have in place prior to installation. Your understanding and interpretation of the Upgrade product's use is inherently false.
     
  13. Dark Void thread starter macrumors 68030

    Dark Void

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    #13
    I'm not trying to decide to between an OEM/Upgrade version vs. Retail, I have decided on retail for the reasons listed.

    @balamw: So what's the procedure, exactly? If I were to create a bootcamp partition and then install the retail copy of Windows 7, and then years later I decide to reuse that same disk on another Laptop, what do I have to do? Am I interpreting your post correctly in understanding that I have to go through some sort of registration process if I use the same disk on a different unit? (assuming it doesn't reactive as you've said) What are these "limited transfer rights" you speak of? Am I going to run into problems trying to use this disc multiple times within my ownership of it?

    I don't plan on switching installations onto different hardware so continuously, I would just like to use this disk for many years on any computer that supports the OS, as I like Windows 7 as an alternative to Mac OS X and I want to get my money's worth in the sense that I can keep reusing it every couple of years or so on different computers.

    Also, is there an initial registration process (installing the Windows 7 disc that I purchase for the first time), or is that just done during the installation of the operating system itself?

    Thanks for the response.
     
  14. balamw Moderator

    balamw

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    #14
    I compared the price/cost of retail upgrade to OEM (about equal) and Full Retail (about double). These are simply verifiable facts. Just do a quick price check at NewEgg, TigerDirect or even Amazon.

    According to everything I have quoted direct from Microsoft in writing, OEM is not intended for installation by an end user on a machine they will use.

    Why is it that you and plenty of others seem perfectly willing to ignore that license restriction, but not the one where the retail upgrade is to be used as an upgrade? (Which, when you do a clean install as a double upgrade it is?). This is the inconsistency I am pointing out.

    You still are apparently unwilling or unable to actually read. I am not a System Builder, registered or otherwise, I have not ever claimed that I attended any System Builder workshops. I, like most people here, am an end-user, I am also a developer and once was an Exchange admin. I have attended workshops aimed at people in those roles.

    I do not claim my interpretation is the only one possible, but I will generally provide backup as to how I have come to that interpretation.

    EDIT: Archlord I'll answer to the best of my knowledge a bit later.

    B
     
  15. Dark Void thread starter macrumors 68030

    Dark Void

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    #15
    Sure thing man, no rush. Thanks for keeping up with this thread I appreciate it.
     
  16. Hyper-X, Jul 16, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2011

    Hyper-X macrumors 6502a

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    #16
    It doesn't change the fact that Upgrade is not the proper product for the OP's purposes, esp coming from someone who pretends to be an expert on Licensing and EULA for MS products.

    You obviously don't understand the terms of OEM installations, from an image generation standpoint, the OEM is required to use OPK's such as Sysprep but that's skewing off the topic, however end-users are allows to reinstall the product onto their machines IAW the OEM's recovery process. The end user's involvement with the reinstallation process differs from the initial image creation and product application onto the client's machine performed by the OEM.

    Being a developer means next to nothing, a registered developer and licensed contributor to the MS Dev Program for any of their projects does. You could write a simple script and claim to be a developer, you can write an Android or IOS app and call yourself a developer. What goes on during an OEM SB Workshop and whatever you claimed to have attended are completely 2 different things. I've mirrored what you posted onto Technet and everyone appears to come to the same conclusion that you're merely lying about your credentials and your involvement with any OEM event held by MS. You might be able to fool novices on these forums but unfortunately I and many others see right through it.

    Being an Exchange Admin isn't a professional position recognized by MS, it's no different from being labeled "the computer guy" or something along those lines. It's just what you did where ever you worked, volunteered or otherwise. I could provide OJT (on the job training) to anyone off the street about MS Exchange and can consider that individual as an admin to its operation and maintenance. An MCP (MS Certified Professional) is the lowest certification you can acquire that is an official title for that specific job position before you go onto being an MCTS (MS Certified Technology Specialist), MCITP (MS Certified IT Professional) or like me, MCSE (MS Certified Support Engineer). I'm under the impression you lack any of the above because depending on when you were certified/re-cert'd, you could log into Technet right now and see the thread I made about your posts.

    You claim to understand the intricacies of the OEM license, tried to pull a fast one by stating irrelevant involvement with other unrelated workshops.

    Personally I'm with Vagabond, as I am in the other thread, is all about providing sensible solutions and options for users. Whether or not an end user acquires an OEM product is beyond me, I'm not the OEM police as long as I nor my company were the ones involved with the resale/distribution of the product. I've never heard of any situation where MS went after the End User for using an OEM OS License, if any the reseller may be penalized for their actions... however do you see Newegg or TigerDirect, both high profile and very visible distributors losing their ability to continue selling MS products because they put OEM products up for sale? The most common situation I've seen is when someone does acquire an OEM product and attempts to call in for support from MS, in which they're always turned down and referred to the OEM distributor to where they purchased the product from.

    It's an option that's readily available to the end user to purchase, if it was completely illegal I'm almost certain MS would make a fuss about it and demand that OEM products be removed from websites from these major distributors.

    Again based on what was presented at many of the OEM Workshops, MS's primary point is all about cost vs support. For a regular end user that may require official support, they want to get their $199 by having them buy the full retail product, not try to cheat the system by acquiring support by getting the product cheaper at $99 for example. MS has stated on numerous occasions that they appreciate customers that buy through legit authorized channels instead of those $10 buy Windows Anything Hacked and Cracked shops overseas. Dell and HP are probably some of the biggest OEM players in the game... and if the speech was good enough for them, it's definitely good enough for us.
     
  17. balamw Moderator

    balamw

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    #17
    This is from memory so some of the details could be off.

    During the install, Windows 7 asks you for a product key, which is printed on the packaging or on a sticker supplied in the full retail package. Do not misplace this! This will be required every time you install.

    Once the installation is complete and generally after it reboots it will ask you to activate the installation you have completed. To do this automatically, it needs an internet connection. The activation engine looks at several key components in the system and generates a "hash" or fingerprint of your hardware configuration. The activation process then submits the product key and the fingerprint to Microsoft. They will then be associated. This will be required every time you install.

    If you do not enter a product key or activate Windows you can use Windows in a 30 day trial mode/unactivated state. I usually do this and enter the product key and activate later, just so I can make sure everything works the way I want it to before I activate.

    I believe the registration (i.e. associate of the product key with your personal info) happens before activation but it has been a while since I did a clean install. This will be requested every time you perform a new install, but IIRC you can simply hit "skip".

    If you later remove the Boot Camp partition and reinstall on different hardware, you just go through the same process again. It will generally go through without any issues, but it is possible that Microsoft will push you to activate by phone as they usually do for OEM reinstalls. This can be an automated touch-tone or voice recognition process or may require talking to a rep.

    You will generally only run into trouble if you don't remove the old install and Microsoft detects two active copies using the same product key when it "phones home" to check the activation status. This will cause BOTH installs to force reactivation and may ultimately lead to Microsoft issuing you a new product key on the phone after talking to a rep or two or three.

    The specifics of the limited transfer rights are described in the Retail Edition EULA. Here's what it says for Windows 7 Home Premium Retail:

    I removed the Windows Anytime Upgrade sections.

    For reference here is that section from an OEM version EULA (a.k.a. pre-installed on your computer from the manufacturer.

    These are from PDF versions I downloaded from Microsoft in 10/2009 and may be out of date. Read the current ones for yourself here: http://www.microsoft.com/About/Legal/EN/US/IntellectualProperty/UseTerms/Default.aspx

    B
     
  18. Dark Void thread starter macrumors 68030

    Dark Void

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    #18
    Alright, sounds pretty straight forward. So I install it, enter the key and all, and it will basically register itself, and then I can do that years later and it will "re-register" itself on the new computer, got it. I won't be attempting to run the same disk and key on more than one computer at a time, I simply want to be able to use the same disk multiple times when I got from computer to computer as time progresses to get my money's worth like I said.

    Also, while I'm at it, can you give me a very brief run down of the BootCamp installation process? I'm not trying to be spoon fed, I have most of it down I think, it's just that I have looked it up from a few different sources as well as watched videos on it and here is my understanding, and then I have a couple of questions.

    1) Open BootCamp Assistant, Partition your drive space for the install, and then prompt the installation.

    2) Insert the Windows disk and install Windows, following the prompts and all

    3) Once inside Windows, insert your OS X disk that came with your Mac and find the BootCamp folder inside of the extras and run the application in there

    4) Use Apple Software Update to update BootCamp

    5) Then finally update Windows via Windows Update and install your desired applications like AV software and what not

    Anything I am missing? Any reboots that should be in there won't be prompted for? Also, and most importantly, I saw one instance (video) where the user installed a "hotfix" to BootCamp before using Windows Update that is supposed to fix your Windows boot up from freezing after the first reboot. Is this necessary? I have never seen it mentioned on these forums.

    Thanks a lot for your help.
     
  19. balamw, Jul 16, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2011

    balamw Moderator

    balamw

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    #19
    Instead, they require all of their legitimate distributors to post diclaimers like the one I have posted from NewEgg in the other thread and this one from TigerDirect http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=5213931&Sku=M17-7300

    Here's the one from PCMall: http://www.pcmall.com/p/Microsoft-Software/product~dpno~7936298~pdp.fiageec?src=search

    They miss calling out the resale restriction, but that is called out in the SBL which is cited.

    If you read at the EULA on the OEM disc (between the System Builder and the End User) vs. the EULA on the retail disc (between Microsoft and the End User) they are different in many ways. I just posted the link earlier so you or anyone else can go read them for yourself. If you have an OEM disc handy I suggest you take a look the EULA is on it. Look at the parts for transfer rights.

    The example I posted in the other thread is still relevant. An extension cord rated for indoor use only will generally work outside and is cheaper and more convenient than one rated for indoor/outdoor use. Both are legally obtainable, both work, and yet somehow I'd rather have the indoor outdoor one on my Christmas lights. Wouldn't you?

    Again, prior to the rewrite of the System Builder License around Vista SP1, I was as big a proponent of using OEM versions on your Macs as you and vagabondlife4me. (Although I did advocate removing it from your Mac before resale so as not to become the System Builder). Since they rewrote the license to include the third-party resale requirement and the "Licensing for Hobbyists page" I can no longer recommend it in good conscience for most users that come here, and I will continue to post the links to the disclaimers, licenses, "Licensing for Hobbyists", Ed Bott's article and anything else I can find to show that while it may generally work, it's certainly not clear that it is "A-OK" with certain camps (the lawyers perhaps?) at Microsoft.

    There is no question that a full retail product is specifically sold and licensed to end-users, and its use on a Mac is supported by both Microsoft and Apple. Anything else is a grey area with varying shades of grey.

    EDIT: You are correct I have no current MS certs or access to TechNet or MSDN and am quite happy about that. Around 2005 I returned to the Mac as my main computer platform several months before I joined MR. Since the Intel switch I have been here helping folks with their Windows on Mac issues as I still know my way around that.

    B
     
  20. balamw Moderator

    balamw

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    #20
    You've pretty much got it down. I usually let Windows Update do its thing before I let Apple Software Update do its thing i.e. swap 4 and 5.

    Please read and print the PDF Apple provides when you are ready to do it it pretty much covers all the bases http://manuals.info.apple.com/en/Boot_Camp_Install-Setup_10.6.pdf

    Some iMacs require some drivers to be present during early parts of the install and this requires a flash drive with some files on it. Also some recent versions of Boot Camp Assistant have problems downloading the drivers that are usually also on the OS X install DVD. This may be a real problem if it continues with Lion. (I am testing it now, but have not run Boot Camp Assistant).

    B
     
  21. Hyper-X, Jul 16, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 17, 2011

    Hyper-X macrumors 6502a

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    #21
    Again we know enough about the Licensing terms without having to a non-affiliated party interpret its meaning. If MS is fine with everyone's understanding of all of its licensing and terms, then we're fine with it.

    Asking me specifically is a bad idea however if you must know... No, because as an OEM, we are under a different set of terms which differ from normal end users, we use VL's (volume licensing) and depending on what the work requirements are, we purchase and use CAL's (client access licensing) on some while others are on VLA (Volume License Agreement) for within the corporation. However my situation differs from typical end users.

    Your analogy appears to present itself to me in a manner similar to asking me whether I should buy non-snagless from an OEM versus snagless 50 feet CAT5e cable from a retail store. My reply would be neither since I have the ability to make my own cables using our own assets, if I need it to be special I could opt to have it made from shielded twisted pair vs the normal unshielded twisted pair.

    Normal end users are often times concerned about cost first above all else, then the legitimacy of the product being used. $99 vs $199 between OEM and Retail, I know of and am aware of many end users with no other credentials who use OEM software without issue. Not saying whether it's right or wrong, rather the acknowledgement of its occurrence.

    So how does that explain the retail upgrade suggestion you made previously, involving hacking the registry amongst other things to "make it work"?

    Just so you know, I nor anyone else needs to see articles on the internet when calling Microsoft directly is toll free, I can find out in minutes what I need to know, just as anyone here can. MS as many other companies have spent millions on ensuring people use genuine products and use them as intended and if you, I or anyone is fuzzy about anything, they're more than willing to "dumb things down" so it's easy to understand. I prefer people to not believe me even with my credentials, want to learn more about Microsoft products, I'll gladly refer you to them directly.

    I'll never understand why there would ever be a need for anyone to come to forums.macrumors.com to find out details about MS's product terms and licensing when simply making a call to the toll free number is faster, free and easier and you'll get genuine answers straight from the company, not someone thinking they know it better than the software manufacturer, from a poster with whom you can't verify their credentials.

    Being a OEM and subscriber to Technet allows me access to their TB's (technical bulletins) which covers the details of any changes regarding licensing and does have a simpler version for most of us that are not lawyers to understand it clearly.

    Here, something in a manner you posted earlier in a similar format.

    Take another product, Linux. Linux is open source, nobody can claim ownership to it, yet Redhat sells their version of Linux for $100 or more. If you want to go about it your own way, there's versions of Linux to where you're pretty much on your own to resolve your issues. However with Redhat Linux, what you may not realize is that the cost for the product is free, the money you spent is to cover the time for Redhat employees to support you when you need help.
     
  22. Dark Void thread starter macrumors 68030

    Dark Void

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    #22
    Alright man thank you, you've helped me a lot. Take care. : )
     
  23. balamw Moderator

    balamw

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    #23
    I'm honestly confused about this "we" you keep referring to. Is it your company? System Builders? Those who think OEM is A-OK to install on your Mac? You and I? Who exactly?

    This was going to be one of the questions I was going to ask you. Which kind of license is on your work/company computer. Thanks for beating me to it.

    Exactly because of your first point above.

    Folks who reach for OEM as a way of getting "something that works" for $99 and don't mind the fact that they are ignoring the System Builder License and all the various attempts by MS to say in plain language: "OEM is intended for System Builders not end users." They then justify their approach by saying "Well at least Microsoft got $99 instead of $0".

    I'm just pointing out that you can still pay MS $99 (sometimes even $89) and get an install of Windows that will work just as well (or better in some cases) by ignoring a different license restriction, which, in many cases, they might even be able to justify that they are in compliance with anyhow...

    Isn't that exactly the opposite of the point of the Ed Bott article we've both linked to? http://www.zdnet.com/blog/bott/is-it-ok-to-use-oem-windows-on-your-own-pc-dont-ask-microsoft/1561
    ;) :p

    This is why I always post links to the source material and let people decide for themselves.

    It seems like Microsoft's Q & A seems vey much in line with my base position. The only license that is unequivocally licensable on your Mac is a Full Retail Product.

    Everything else is a shade of grey.

    Yeah, and If Microsoft really wanted Windows 7 OEM to be like Red Hat's own "Fedora" system they wouldn't try to write the license in such a way that it was clear that the only difference between the two versions was support or the lack thereof. And yet ... they don't.

    B
     
  24. Hyper-X, Jul 18, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2011

    Hyper-X macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2011
    #24
    Every OEM and Registered MS Business Partner who deals with the OEM license products from MS. You won't find a single person saying "no, no, no, what the Microsoft rep said on stage wasn't good enough" about the terms of its use and their (MS's) main issues with OEM products and end users. The only ones that might object are their own lawyers, but definitely not its partners.

    Our company has always used Enterprise licenses for as long as I've been with them. However for many small to medium sized businesses, CAL packaged sets would likely make more sense in regards to their company's mission and budget requirements.

    True however the OP was clearly looking at the most "correct" route, which from my understanding is the indisputable choice, retail box, non-upgrade.

    The reason why I'm sticking you with the whole issue of OEM vs Retail Upgrade is due to your specific comments on how to make it work which involves actual alteration of the product's code once it's installed (referring to the registry comment) and/or installing the Upgrade disc twice. We both agree that the hard truth behind the OEM deal is gray and not 100% crystal clear. For someone to install OEM Windows, it requires no alteration of the product for it to be used. I provided no hint of instruction on how to make it work, rather just a suggestion as an option. I read your post as almost an instruction on how to make something work illegally, which... correct me if I'm wrong but is in direct violation of this forum's policy.

    I know what you're saying, I know what your intent is despite what you post. I'm just picking on you because it seems that you like to be very literal in some areas then in another post hints/tips as to how to circumvent the products intended application.

    I never said policies made sense, as a normal user I could care less. However as a professional I have to look at where the gray areas are, assess the situation, consider if the risks are acceptable, if not research what isn't gray and stay within the crystal clear areas of any ToS, License, User Agreements, etc. Like I said earlier, Microsoft isn't interested in coming to your house for 1 improperly used OEM Windows license and put you into Microsoft jail. Their beef is about people having a stink about MS not offering support to anyone with an OEM Windows product key when they call in for support. A lot of users think that just because they bought a $99 OEM Microsoft product, they're entitled to $500 worth of phone support.

    Personally, this is just me but I feel you'd do a better service by providing a contact number and having your readers find out from them directly. Putting links or quotes on a forum instigates discussion sometimes outright arguments/bickering and more interpretation by unqualified parties.

    I'm sure you understand when I say that I don't believe a lot of things I read, especially on an open forum. Some of the stuff I read makes for interesting reads while others are downright ridiculous. My take on things is it's best to get it from the horse's mouth. I'd rather to talk to someone from Apple to get answers in regards to their stuff, not ask someone who presents themselves as a wannabe expert in the matter. I'm not singling out you nor is it my intent as I see this all the time everywhere, including MS Technet. We have many guys thinking an A+ Cert is the same as a MCSE.

    Off the record, any normal person who're not lawyers would think that if Microsoft is okay that their distributors are selling OEM Windows, would have to know that there's going to be those that aren't using it IAW the Licensing Terms and EULA, etc.

    It'd be like me selling marijuana to anyone on the internet and expecting you the buyer to read through the disclaimer and understanding that it's meant for medicinal purposes only and that you have to have a valid prescription for the stuff, etc. I'd be stupid to think that there's not going to be issues with the stuff being use in a legit, legal manner. In that sense, I'd be just as guilty about creating the problem to begin with.
     
  25. balamw Moderator

    balamw

    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2005
    Location:
    New England
    #25
    You are incorrect here again (about what the forum rules are). Whether we like it or not we are not the EULA police. We can only do what I have been doing all along. Remind folks that they might not be 100% legit.

    There is plenty of discussion on the board about Jailbreaking, Hackintosh, etc... What we (as mods) look for are specifically (w.r.t. the Windows on Mac forum): links to ISOs that do not come from Microsoft. (This is not to say that all ISOs are bad, I post the links to the "official" Digital River ISOs plenty to help folks through issues.), Detailied instruction on bypassing activation and keygens as activation is really the main tool that Microsoft users against piracy.

    This is why, both in this case and the other thread I am very careful about not saying anything about OEM until someone else has brought it up as being perfectly OK. The original posters in both threads came to their own conclusion that Full Retail Product was the right way to go and my first post in the thread was just to confirm that. It's downhill from there.

    You'll find that most threads that start off "I torrented a copy of W7 and a keygen, and am having trouble with my mouse" fall on deaf ears around here.

    :confused: Re-read my first post in this thread and in the other one. What is my agenda? My insidious plan?

    I would have no problem in vagabondforlife saying. "You could save a few bucks by using OEM, even though you are using it for personal/hobbyist use the risk of Microsoft doing anything about it is so tiny you won't get busted." However both he, you and others don't come out and say that it's a shade of gray. They say it's perfectly fine, "A-OK". It isn't so clear.

    This is a major issue with shrink wrap licenses. The only person qualified to determine if they are in compliance with a license is the person entering the agreement. They just need to know what to look for.

    As Ed Bott says, the folks on the other end of the line don't know either. It's the blind leading the blind. The licenses aren't written in a foreign language or impossible to decipher. This is why I post the links as well as the plain English "Licensing for Hobbyists" page and the Ed Bott article. Only you can decide if you think you qualify as a System Builder or can ignore that license (in which case who is the System Builder you derive that EULA from?) and only you can decide if something qualifies you for upgrade or student pricing, regardless of the intent.

    Just as only you can decide if the Snow Leopard upgrade is for you even though you only have Tiger...

    If they still haven't made up their mind at that point, they are free to call and get another opinion. However, most folks, will already have made up their mind. Either that they really want OEM (because everyone is doing it, and they wouldn't be swayed by Microsoft repeating the Q&A you posted from TechNet) or the really want full retail (because it is unequivocally the right thing to do).

    Were I not one of thick skin and a relatively even keel I might have reported some of your earlier posts as personal attacks. Credentials, and certs mean very little. I've seen my share of MCSE's stumped by things a good, but uncertified, admin can work around in 5 minutes. Things don't always go "by the book". Experience trumps training most of the time.

    Just as a manufacturer of "Indoor Use Only" extension cords probably knows that someone will probably use them outside. All I can do is point out the license or indication and the risks and limitations.

    FWIW Microsoft would probably do well to get folks off of their XP addiction if they offered Windows 7 upgrades with no support for $49. I bought all my copies of W7 (upgrades for existing XP or Vista installs when MS was offering 50% off at launch) yet, I have one machine I keep XP on and have the upgrade still in shrink wrap.

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