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More on this later, have an event to attend.

You are incorrect here again (about what the forum rules are). Whether we like it or not we are not the EULA police. We can only do what I have been doing all along. Remind folks that they might not be 100% legit.
Actually you're clearly mistaken on this.

Forum Rules: --> https://macrumors.zendesk.com/hc/en-us

Things Not To Do...

6. Warez/Serials/Keys. Do not post software serial numbers or keys or refer people to specific websites, software, or techniques whose purpose is to break or bypass software licensing methods, distribute cracks, or obtain or use commercial software or media in violation of its license and/or for copyright violation. Do not ask for or give such help.

I'm anticipating that you might respond with how you didn't exactly provide step-by-step instruction, however that's irrelevant since the information you posted provides sufficient information for someone to work off your leads. If nobody was aware of how they could circumvent a MS product, your post definitely gives enough information to work off of. That, in any other forum that I've been a part of or moderate, will tell you that it is a clear violation of forum rules.

Macrumors has it clearly stated as I linked above.
 
I suggest you seek clarification from the admins via the Contact Us link.

If I were to interpret that rule the way you seem to want me to I would have deleted all posts that suggest using OEM software since you are essentially advocating bypassing the System Builder License.

Look to the left of my post. See the bit that says "(Moderator)"? Do you think I am operating in a vacuum without checks and balances with the rest of the staff?

I repeat: nothing I am suggesting is possible requires any hacking or even registry modification. You still need to get a product key by some means to activate it. Those are the bits you are paying Microsoft for. The ISOs are trivial to download from Digital River, etc...

Basically what it boils down to is that we cannot stop people from using products they obtain legally in unlicensed/off-label ways. (Using OEM, hackintoshing, jailbreaking, clean installing upgrade only products (e.g. Lion), installing Snow Leopard upgrade over Tiger ...).

You keep saying that if MS didn't want people to be able to use OEM they would stop retailers from carrying it. Similarly if Microsoft cared about the fact that upgrade media and product keys can be used on bare metal for a clean install they would have made the installer actually check and they would ask their good friend Paul Thurrott to take down his very easy to find page.

We can and do crack down on keygens, torrents of modified software, ...

B
 
I suggest you seek clarification from the admins via the Contact Us link.

If I were to interpret that rule the way you seem to want me to I would have deleted all posts that suggest using OEM software since you are essentially advocating bypassing the System Builder License.
Advocating violations of the SB policy and providing a realistic option are two different things. The OEM solution I suggested is a very viable solution, it's implemented today by many major OEM's (just not with our company) and is a valid option. I never said that it was the only solution, I said that it was the better of the ones being suggested. I also did not provide information as to who to inquire about acquiring an OEM license for personal use.

You on the other hand have posted direct information as to how to circumvent and violate the product(s). You gave enough information regarding how to perform workarounds for a product that's clearly not intended to work that way (fresh installing an upgrade disc by using it as the prerequisite product), etc. If nobody has gone that far as to thinking about how to do it, well now they do.

Look to the left of my post. See the bit that says "(Moderator)"? Do you think I am operating in a vacuum without checks and balances with the rest of the staff?
I've been a moderator and admin for a very long time on other forums, do you think Moderators don't violate forum rules? A Moderator is not an Admin, a moderator is a normal user with elevated privileges usually bound to a specific forum section.

I stand by what I posted earlier, the rules are crystal clear. See the area in bold in my previous post? Read that a few times, then think about your involvement regarding.

FWIW if you posted something along the lines of "there are methods that exist which circumvents and/or possibly violate the terms of a product's use on the internet if you search for it, however the details are beyond the bounds of this forum..." then I'd have no issue with it.

I repeat: nothing I am suggesting is possible requires any hacking or even registry modification. You still need to get a product key by some means to activate it. Those are the bits you are paying Microsoft for. The ISOs are trivial to download from Digital River, etc...
Altering or making entries into the Registry or making suggestions to it to make an Upgrade Product work is considered "hacking" a product. I challenge you to use your powers of copy/pasting to show me a link on MS's site that says altering the Registry on their products is a valid method of its use for its installation. I also challenge you to find me any official MS material which states you can use the same Upgrade disc as the prerequisite product in order to use it IAW its License and/or EULA terms. If not, you need to re-read the Macrumors rule #6 again.

Getting a product key from "some means" could mean a key generator or one off a list. You need to obtain keys in the manner in which it is legal, IAW the software manufacturer's requirements. I'm not sure why I need to go over this so many times before you understand this. However it's okay, it simply points out that you're the type of person who simply can't admit when they're wrong, and I'm fine with agreeing to disagree on this topic.

Basically what it boils down to is that we cannot stop people from using products they obtain legally in unlicensed/off-label ways. (Using OEM, hackintoshing, jailbreaking, clean installing upgrade only products (e.g. Lion), installing Snow Leopard upgrade over Tiger ...).
What does that have anything to do with this? You're saying the sky is blue and the ocean has water. My issue is your stance on being the certified expert on MS Licensing for which you're clearly not (see the credential issues I posted above). You act like you're the SME when you're not. All you've done is what anyone else can do which is search online and copy/paste onto your posts. That alone isn't enough, your reference to your ZDnet article proves my point, some areas are gray, the manufacturer admits that it's not always crystal clear.

I on the other hand am a registered a OEM which uses and distributes their products IAW MS's requirements. Do I claim to be the expert on the Licensing and terms? No. I can only acknowledge what goes on in the professional market, we don't deal with the gray areas because we don't really have to (we're not a retail support line). Have we as professionals been confused or not absolutely clear about each MS product's intended use? Yes. Have we asked them questions about it, yes. Have we received enough clarity on the subject to put our concerns to rest from the manufacturer, yes.

My OEM solution is in that gray area, not saying it's right or not, which is why I always suggest users to call into the company directly and get their answers there which is why I always say, it's best to get it from the horse's mouth. Are you trying to say that regarding MS Licensing issues that we should not call MS directly and have them refer to balamw on Macrumors.com?

Your suggestion on altering the Registry, using the same upgrade disc twice, is not in any gray area, that is a clear violation of the products terms of use.

You keep saying that if MS didn't want people to be able to use OEM they would stop retailers from carrying it. Similarly if Microsoft cared about the fact that upgrade media and product keys can be used on bare metal for a clean install they would have made the installer actually check and they would ask their good friend Paul Thurrott to take down his very easy to find page.
No, I didn't "keep saying", I only mentioned it once previously. I'm just saying it from a general perspective, it's like someone advocating something to happen through certain channels (OEM) yet they allow it to be distributed through retail channels. If a company was really strict and insistent on how OEM products should be handled/used, it's my opinion that they shouldn't create a gray area to begin with. It's just my perspective on the matter.

We can and do crack down on keygens, torrents of modified software, ...

B
You can start by rethinking about your posts when it comes to workarounds.
 
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By the way, if you think any post violates forum rules, please hit the report button. The mods will take notice, and take appropriate action after discussion if needed. If you need to question the way the mods implement the rules, please use Contact Us to reach the admins or use the Site and Forum Feedback forum. This is not the right venue for that discussion.

I reported my post above this one and if one of the other mods thinks action is required they can take it.

Let the record stand for what it is I have not claimed to be a subject matter expert. This is why I post links and let folks decide for themselves. My first responses in both threads you have subverted is to agree with the OPs assesment that full retail product is the "proper" version to use.

I just don't understand why you think one off-license use is fundamentally different than any other. What makes ignoring the SBL A-OK? (Despite public sources "licensing for hobbyists" and even Technet Q and A saying it isn't so simple.) !?!

Is installing the $29 Snow Leopard Upgrade on a Tiger machine A-OK? Is extracting the DMG from the Lion installer so as to get a clean install A-OK?

My point continues to be: do what makes you comfortable given all the information available and don't fool yourself things are A-OK when you are most likely dealing with a shade of grey when you pay less than $199.

Lets recap. The "retail" sources that sell OEM say they do so under the terms of the SBL. The SBL says (in plain English) that to comply with the license you must resell the computer to a third-party with the software preinstalled using the OPK. It also explicitly does not allow the System Builder to use the software for any other purpose. The OEM EULA is between the System Builder and the End User, so it becomes difficult to argue that you have a valid license if someone didn't already comply with the SBL. To that end several of the clarifications of the SBL explicitly say you can't grant the license to yourself.

You are using the fact that the installer doesn't enforce this license restriction (most likely as a way of letting smaller OEMs distribute vanilla discs with their builds so the the end user can reinstall their OS without the OPK in the field) to let the end user perform an initial install from OEM media.

How is exploiting this hole fundamentally different than exploiting the hole in the retail upgrade installer that lets you double install?

In both cases you are not following the officially sanctioned initial install process, and subverting the intent of the license under which it was sold.

Again, it's not like upgrade versions cost significantly less than OEM. Why does it bother you so much that there exists another simple workaround to getting Windows installed on your Mac while giving Microsoft around $100 of your cold hard cash?!?

Do you as a system builder get some sort of brownie points from Microsoft when someone purchases an OEM version without planning on complying with the SBL?

B
 
I'm trying to follow along with this thread about the difference between OEM, Upgrade a Full.

My son is a college student and can get a free to use version of Windows 7 just for being enrolled at the university, but it is the "Upgrade" version. He runs a 2010 MBP 15". This coming up semester he is going to need to be able run a Windows program for a class (Visual Basic).

Can he do the boot camp thing and then install the free upgrade version to his MBP? We do have a Windows laptop that recently bit the dust. Could the Upgrade count towards it?

It's all so confusing :p

Thanks
 
The issue at hand is Microsoft changed a stance with OEM use with Win 7.. For years, Microsoft recognized "hobbyists" as legitimate users of OEM OS product; i.e home system builders who would use the computer for themselves.

Recently, they changed their tune now saying unless the system is being sold to someone else, it is a violation of the user agreement to use OEM versions of their OS this way. They even cited an example of a system admin who builds PCS for his or her company - nope. not valid...

I recall buying a new hard drive and purchasing an OEM version of Windows that I could legitimately install with my "major system upgrade." It just isn't the same anymore.

CAN you install an OEM version on a MAC? Sure. Is it legal use according to Microsoft's license? No..Not anymore.

http://www.microsoft.com/oem/en/licensing/sblicensing/pages/licensing_for_hobbyists.aspx

Hope this helps.
 
CAN you install an OEM version on a MAC? Sure. Is it legal use according to Microsoft's license? No..Not anymore.

Likewise: Can an retail or EDU upgrade version be used to install on your Mac without previously installing and activating Vista or XP? YES. Is it licensed according to Microsoft's EULA? PROBABLY NOT.

Many here have installed W7 "student upgrade" on their Macs and it does "work."

However if you care about being properly licensed. Pick up a full retail box.

B
 
FWIW Microsoft would probably do well to get folks off of their XP addiction if they offered Windows 7 upgrades with no support for $49. I bought all my copies of W7 (upgrades for existing XP or Vista installs when MS was offering 50% off at launch) yet, I have one machine I keep XP on and have the upgrade still in shrink wrap.

B


IMO Microsoft should just give free copies of 7 to anyone that bought Vista. Also, how can you say that?! XP is one of the best things to come from Microsoft....that springs to mind at least. It's a healthy addiction. :]
 
IMO Microsoft should just give free copies of 7 to anyone that bought Vista.

I'd settle for $29. Some fruity company seems to have set that precedent.

Also, how can you say that?! XP is one of the best things to come from Microsoft....that springs to mind at least. It's a healthy addiction. :]

XP turns 10 years old in a few weeks. Let it spend it's golden years in cushy VMs and don't force hardware companies to support it on with drivers for new hardware that is best supported on a newer OS.

B
 
I've got the OEM Win 7 Home Edition 64 bit disc I bought from Amazon. I tried using it for a clean install of Win 7 on a Asus laptop. Long story but I put the Asus back to the original condition and wiped out the oem install and returned the Asus for a refund.

I plan on getting a 15" MBP soon and want to bootcamp Windows 7 using that OEM disc. Will I be able to get it activated? It was activated when it was on the Asus for about a week then like I said it was wiped clean.

Thank you.

Jim
 
Will I be able to get it activated?

Most likely yes, but you will probably have to call MS instead of activating online.

The problem is that the license explicitly does not grant you these rights, so you are at Microsoft's whim.

B
 
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