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Thanks. That news made my day.

Trust me, my story is far worse than anybody here.

Instead of gaining $1.50 on every dollar of my house value at the peak, it would be safe to say I lost 66 cents on the dollar if I were to sell it now. Northern California, where we most recently had the dot.bomb, was hit so hard when the housing downturn hit.

There were houses near San Jose that were shacks going for over a million dollars. Today, some of these houses are selling for $300,000 dollars. 1 bedroom, 1 bathroom, awful neighborhood.

For the first time since the 1980s, I saw some Northern California rural shacks going for under $200,000 dollars. For people in other states looking at a 1 bd/1 ba house, that still sounds high, but an outhouse in San Jose proper could have fetched that three years ago. :)
 
Well, just keep in mind all you proponents of condo-living -- yes there's less maintenance and upkeep, but I don't care how new your place is or how well it's built, if you have annoying/noisy/loud neighbors living above/alongside of you, they will drive you crazy. And if it's not the noise, it'll be something else they do that pisses you off (scroll down about 1/4 of the way..."Cart it away"). You'll always have neighbors, but at least with a house there's more than just some drywall and studs separating you.

And yes, I live in a condo.

OK, trying being my age and having played electric guitar for 20 years. My hearing sucks and I am far better than the average 70 year old citizen in my retirement neighborhood. In a few years, I won't be able to hear anything in your condo. :)

It's so funny how some of the largest noises, like thunder, cannot be heard by many of the locals. And what is scary is that some of these people drive!
 
i feel pretty confident i can get out of my house what i owe on it. thats all i am concerned about.

when i bought the house in 02, there was nothing around me. since then, a city has grown up less than a mile away (while still keeping my neighborhood quiet). we have gotten 2 new grocery stores, a target, home depot, tj maxx, ross, tons of stuff, and its still growing in our area.. so property values are up. my wife got the name of a guy who flips houses in our area, and apparently his business recently has been good.. we will see where this latest idea takes us..


oh yeah- i would rent a house, not an apartment. i need 3bedrooms, or 3 and a study...
 
No yard work either. ;)

A big yard is one of the requirements for the houses I've looke at.:cool: I've got a 12000 sq feet of grass on my lot and no trees. I hate raking.:p I like having a big yard for the kids to run around in. And the weekly mowing, with a reel mower, keeps me healthy.;)

No major problems with the house so far (knock on my mother-in-law's head;))
 
I saw this bumper sticker on a Mini Cooper S one night:
"You can live in your car
but you can't race your house"


:D

Cute.

My point was that cars NEVER gain equity. (ok maybe like 1 or 3 models from all manufacturers each year do...)

Your house, though not of late, always builds equity.

A problem may arise that requires alot of money to get right, but most likely your house will still have a roof and four walls.

A problem with a car requires some to a lot of money and most likely your car is unusable until you fix it. And while you spend the $ on the car, it does NOTHING to increase its value.

Cars cost money everyday. Houses, once a year.
 
I will NEVER own a condo. From my point of view, you just bought your apartment. A house, I could live with, if I were in another line of work. I do apartment Maintenance. :rolleyes:
 
i feel pretty confident i can get out of my house what i owe on it. thats all i am concerned about.

when i bought the house in 02, there was nothing around me. since then, a city has grown up less than a mile away (while still keeping my neighborhood quiet). we have gotten 2 new grocery stores, a target, home depot, tj maxx, ross, tons of stuff, and its still growing in our area.. so property values are up. my wife got the name of a guy who flips houses in our area, and apparently his business recently has been good.. we will see where this latest idea takes us..


oh yeah- i would rent a house, not an apartment. i need 3bedrooms, or 3 and a study...

If this information of what you are saying got out, and we knew exactly where you live, your town would grow to 1 million people within a year. :)

Besides the crash in real estate, what also kills me is the high price of gasoline but there are some independent stations that have been selling regular unleaded for $2.99 but when the local news got the word out, people flooded that remote station. At the time, gas was around $4.40 a gallon in surrounding urban areas. The locals of that station kept their low gas prices a secret for quite a long time but someone squealed to the press.

There are a few small markets in the U.S. that are actually having an upward trend in real estate until too many people find out about it and inflation sets in and people ditch that market. Things in real estate are very sketchy right now.
 
I will NEVER own a condo. From my point of view, you just bought your apartment. A house, I could live with, if I were in another line of work. I do apartment Maintenance. :rolleyes:

I feel like if you live in a subdivision/development of houses then you are as good as living in an condo -- except you have more work
 
If this information of what you are saying got out, and we knew exactly where you live, your town would grow to 1 million people within a year. :)

Besides the crash in real estate, what also kills me is the high price of gasoline but there are some independent stations that have been selling regular unleaded for $2.99 but when the local news got the word out, people flooded that remote station. At the time, gas was around $4.40 a gallon in surrounding urban areas. The locals of that station kept their low gas prices a secret for quite a long time but someone squealed to the press.

There are a few small markets in the U.S. that are actually having an upward trend in real estate until too many people find out about it and inflation sets in and people ditch that market. Things in real estate are very sketchy right now.

The area i live in is the fastest growing area in our state right now apparently.. so word is getting out..
 
The area i live in is the fastest growing area in our state right now apparently.. so word is getting out..

Then as you probably know, timing is everything when trying to sell. Make sure the market doesn't overheat and crash, like it did in much of California.

Anyway, it sounds like you are in a good position. Good luck.
 
There are a few small markets in the U.S. that are actually having an upward trend in real estate until too many people find out about it and inflation sets in and people ditch that market.

non of that makes sense -- at least not the way you combine those two things.

Consider why the housing market bubble burst?

lenders were offering loans (with very low introductory interest rates that would then subsequently shoot up (a recent Capital One credit card commercial does a great job at giving a visual of that). They were offering 0% down. And worst of all, they were approving just about anyone.

When the introductory rates shot up, people were unable to make interest payments, so they defaulted on their loans, and the bank foreclosed (took over the ownership - in simplest terms).

This happens all the time, many people have made fortunes on these properties in the past because they bank puts them up for sale at a price where it can cover it's own loans.

( a little lesson on the banking system - when you deposit your money into an account, that money doesn't just sit in the vault. It is used by the bank to make loans to other people. for the use of this money the bank pays you some small percentage - anywhere from 0.25% per year, to 4.5% or 5.5% per year depending on the prevailing interest rates. But rather then taking on all the risk of loaning out $100,000, at say 7% for 25 years ... the bank will take that mortgage, split it up into several smaller bond issues, and sell them in the market place, so now, the risk is divided by other investors -- usually the bonds will pay close the equivalent term rates of gov bonds, since banks are usually considered very stable.)

so since the bank has it's own loans to pay it needs to liquidate that asset quickly. Like i said, this usually happens all the time, it's a risk banks take on.

enter 2007 mortgage crisis -- instead of 1 or 2 houses foreclosing, 10 -20 houses start foreclosing - the bank has to cover it's costs so it lowers the price of the houses

you now have a surplus of homes --- people interested in purchasing on the cheap all of a sudden get to be picky - people in the area looking to sell their home are now forced to lower their price to make it more attractive to sell -- and so this cycle continues until finally those willing to buy and those willing to sell agree in a price where the quantity demanded and quantity supplied meet -- known as equilibrium

Yet, you are observing that some places are experiencing increase in value.
perhaps it is an attractive area that people want to move to because that's where the jobs are - Texas is experiencing an economic boom thanks to gas prices.
OR perhaps the prices had come down so low in the market, that people are now trying to buy on the cheap, and now that there are so many buyers, prices can start increasing again, obviously they will not increase forever because just like pricing coming down, eventually quantity supplied will meet quantity demanded. Often a rapid rise in prices, a bubble, is caused by rampant optimism and speculation, people buying homes with the intention of reselling immediately at a higher price.

Another factor to consider in the housing market was the growth of "flipping" craze -- this in particular was fueled by the 0 down, low introductory rates --- people were often buying homes that were far to expensive, so they can flip them within the month (to avoid the large mortgage payment). when the bubble burst, and all those people holding on to homes starting dumping them trying to get out, there was as further depression in the value of the homes.

now, inflation is an economic wide phenomenon ... as measured by CPI or GDP deflator -- rising rent or value of new homes contributes to the entire calculation of inflation ... but the rise in home values is not inflation -- more accurately one would say that home values are rising slower then inflation, at the rate of inflation, or faster then inflation.


now consider the price of gas.
gasoline is dependent on the price of oil.

2 reasons for the increase in the price oil

1. increased in demand, and lowered supply -- thats a market mechanism -- add to that speculation, and you fuel a bubble

2. depreciating US currency --- since oil is sold is traded in US dollars, the lower value of US dollars means more of them are needed when trading with other countries --- you'll notice the negative correlation between them -- they are not perfectly correlated because of point 1 -- but pretty damn close.

best
 
non of that makes sense -- at least not the way you combine those two things.

Consider why the housing market bubble burst?

lenders were offering loans (with very low introductory interest rates that would then subsequently shoot up (a recent Capital One credit card commercial does a great job at giving a visual of that). They were offering 0% down. And worst of all, they were approving just about anyone.

When the introductory rates shot up, people were unable to make interest payments, so they defaulted on their loans, and the bank foreclosed (took over the ownership - in simplest terms).

This happens all the time, many people have made fortunes on these properties in the past because they bank puts them up for sale at a price where it can cover it's own loans.

( a little lesson on the banking system - when you deposit your money into an account, that money doesn't just sit in the vault. It is used by the bank to make loans to other people. for the use of this money the bank pays you some small percentage - anywhere from 0.25% per year, to 4.5% or 5.5% per year depending on the prevailing interest rates. But rather then taking on all the risk of loaning out $100,000, at say 7% for 25 years ... the bank will take that mortgage, split it up into several smaller bond issues, and sell them in the market place, so now, the risk is divided by other investors -- usually the bonds will pay close the equivalent term rates of gov bonds, since banks are usually considered very stable.)

so since the bank has it's own loans to pay it needs to liquidate that asset quickly. Like i said, this usually happens all the time, it's a risk banks take on.

enter 2007 mortgage crisis -- instead of 1 or 2 houses foreclosing, 10 -20 houses start foreclosing - the bank has to cover it's costs so it lowers the price of the houses

you now have a surplus of homes --- people interested in purchasing on the cheap all of a sudden get to be picky - people in the area looking to sell their home are now forced to lower their price to make it more attractive to sell -- and so this cycle continues until finally those willing to buy and those willing to sell agree in a price where the quantity demanded and quantity supplied meet -- known as equilibrium

Yet, you are observing that some places are experiencing increase in value.
perhaps it is an attractive area that people want to move to because that's where the jobs are - Texas is experiencing an economic boom thanks to gas prices.
OR perhaps the prices had come down so low in the market, that people are now trying to buy on the cheap, and now that there are so many buyers, prices can start increasing again, obviously they will not increase forever because just like pricing coming down, eventually quantity supplied will meet quantity demanded. Often a rapid rise in prices, a bubble, is caused by rampant optimism and speculation, people buying homes with the intention of reselling immediately at a higher price.

Another factor to consider in the housing market was the growth of "flipping" craze -- this in particular was fueled by the 0 down, low introductory rates --- people were often buying homes that were far to expensive, so they can flip them within the month (to avoid the large mortgage payment). when the bubble burst, and all those people holding on to homes starting dumping them trying to get out, there was as further depression in the value of the homes.

now, inflation is an economic wide phenomenon ... as measured by CPI or GDP deflator -- rising rent or value of new homes contributes to the entire calculation of inflation ... but the rise in home values is not inflation -- more accurately one would say that home values are rising slower then inflation, at the rate of inflation, or faster then inflation.


now consider the price of gas.
gasoline is dependent on the price of oil.

2 reasons for the increase in the price oil

1. increased in demand, and lowered supply -- thats a market mechanism -- add to that speculation, and you fuel a bubble

2. depreciating US currency --- since oil is sold is traded in US dollars, the lower value of US dollars means more of them are needed when trading with other countries --- you'll notice the negative correlation between them -- they are not perfectly correlated because of point 1 -- but pretty damn close.

best

That sounds grim. It sounds like you are in the industry? And when do you think the housing crash/recession/downturn/whatever will end?
 
That sounds grim. It sounds like you are in the industry? And when do you think the housing crash/recession/downturn/whatever will end?

not exactly in the industry -- i'm an economics major, hopefully starting my Masters in a year. Just taking some extra math courses now --- I'm particularly interested in Financial economics and some of the course work at the masters level requires 3 to 4 levels of calculus -- at least the programs i'm looking at

and was on route to getting my real estate license until i decided I wanted to be in banking and did my CSC <-- the Canadian equivalent of the Series 7 you guys have in the states for stock brokers.

So i guess the short of it is I have a pretty broad industry understanding -- academically off course.


As a country you guys are in a tough bind (I live in canada, but because our economies are closely tied I monitor it very carefully) you are in an election year, and non of your politicians are going to say what really needs to be done.

and that is -- raise taxes -- but not income tax instead do it on sales / consumption tax -- discourage people from spending, and encourage them to save. This is one the biggest issues, fueling the problem -- a negative personal savings rate-- i believe it is -1.0 % -- and it is savings that allow investments and investments fuel economies, NOT consumption --- even though consumption is the largest part of GDP

currently there is no incentive to save -- low taxes, low interest rates -- obviously, low interset rates are great for firms, they can gain access to more funds which they can use build capital stock (invest) which means they can create new jobs.

but on the other hand, and interest rate doesn't really encourage saving, since it is bearly outpacing inflation, so it is almost better to spend it now, because it might be worth less next year.

inflation is going to be realistic occurrence given that the government is bailing out banks --- this will increase the money supply -- more funds will be loaned out, people will spend more, demand for products will go up, if firms can't keep up, they'll increase prices, and when it is economy wide - inflation

I wouldn't hold it my breath for things to get better until you have a new president and they start making some policy changes

how much worse is it going to get? that's difficult because I don't know what % of the entire market were these subprime loans, and how many more people will be foreclosed.

in terms of recession -- it's not all bad ... because even with oil prices what they are, and it being the largest import, The US is still at a trade surplus, so people are still buying what your selling.

when will it all end -- I don't foresee it happening until after the election and since that is in November? maybe Jan or Feb 2009? but i'm very conservative in my predictions -- i'de rather be wrong and it happen sooner then wrong, and it taking longer

remember --- recessions are no worse then expansions they are just opposites of a very unpredictable coin -- the very fact that there is an expansion is the reason for a recession.

Now, Bush, it's not all his fault -- was going to Iraq a good idea? maybe -- is having such a costly presence in Iraq now a good idea? I would lean toward maybe NOT. But one the hardest things that Bush has to deal with is that he came in after Clinton. Bush gets blamed for undoing everything Clinton did .. .but Clinton really didn't do that much for the economy - not more then the market forces did. Clinton came into power at the end of a recession. It only lasted 8 months but since Canada was in recession for 23 months during that time you lost a bit trading abilities with your biggest partner. Anyway -- when Clinton came in the only place for the economy to go was up add to that the internet revolution and you have boom --- and what happened at the end of Clintons term? the bubble burst, just as Bush was about to come in, leaving it to him to clean it up.

I don't think I really gave you an answer --- but i'm not allowed to even call myself an economist until at least my masters -- and even then ... most economist will never give you a straight answer.

best
 
I don't even want to think about what's going on behind my walls. I bought this money pit knowing it needed some work. However, not a few months after I bought it, my job at the time cut my hours back and cut our commission by about 50%, so the extra income we had was spent scrambling to re arrange bills and stuff...

so i got a new job, which i had for three years.. it was a little better- allowed us to pay our bills, but not much else.

Then I got laid off last September, and finally got an OK Job in December... with a baby due April of this year...


So its been stressful, i need someoen else to worry about things for a while.

Yeah I'm not a fan of used homes, god knows what is hiding in their walls. I used my new shower for the first time tonight though and am happy to report that the plumbing almost doesn't leak :D
 
As with anything, there are trade-offs. My house can be a lot of work at times as well, but in return I have an appreciating asset which I love to call home. It has a great layout, amazing backyard, it great for entertaining friends and family and all that good stuff. :) Yes, there are costs involved in terms of property taxes, reno costs and repair bills, but it's the nature of the beast, and a cost I'm willing to pay (within reason of course) to have this great place of mine. :)

Plus, with respect to renos, I love being handy, learning new skills and enjoy the satisfaction of a challenging job well done. Trades are scarce these days, finding good people is so hard and when you do you end up paying a premium and waiting forever - I prefer to learn how to do things myself which ends up being quicker, cheaper and more satisfying.

In terms of maintenance, I am not allergic to hard work. ;) I love being outside in the summer working on the yard and in the winter shoveling snow is an excellent workout.

Regardless of the costs incurred, I always say that at the end of "x" years of owning a home, you have something - an asset which has appreciated. At the end of "x" years of renting, what do you have? Nothing.
 
When the Wall Street types started talking about the first big housing dip in 60 years, the real estate agents were skeptical about their 20% percent drop prediction.

Today, those same real estate agents are making predictions even scarier than Wall Street. Depending on your specific house, the market in your area, and the recession overall, a house can lose half its value from the 2005-06 peak value. Many other homes will lose a third of their value from the peak before this is all over.

As someone who has just graduated college and is spending two years renting and going to grad school, this news is ok with me.

Nothing like getting a 350k (current) house in FL for 200k. I think I can swing that and my 60k in student loans.
 
As someone who has just graduated college and is spending two years renting and going to grad school, this news is ok with me.

Nothing like getting a 350k (current) house in FL for 200k. I think I can swing that and my 60k in student loans.

$60k! For student loans? That's it? :eek: :p
 
Your house, though not of late, always builds equity.

Heh, this is just the type of sentiment we see in the British housing market all the time. There are so many optimistic but tired and flawed arguments flying around even when prices are crashing -

"House prices always go up!"
"You can't go wrong with bricks and mortar"
"Renting is just dead money, you're paying someone elses mortgage"

etc. etc. ad nauseum.

Clearly it's an absolutely terrible time for anyone to buy a first house over here, and while I try to always avoid generalisations - anyone that buys now is an idiot.

This may not be the case depending on where you are in the states, but from what I gather your housing problems are even more further advanced than ours are.
 
Regardless of the costs incurred, I always say that at the end of "x" years of owning a home, you have something - an asset which has appreciated. At the end of "x" years of renting, what do you have? Nothing.

Hey ~Shard~ -- been a long time, hope all is well

been waiting when you'll chime in. I always respect your incite.

I don't think any of us on the Condo side of the argument are suggesting renting is better -- but owning a condo satisfies the criteria of appreciating asset and after "x" years having something.

you mentioned you enjoy reno's and the like -- and that's great -- I have this discussion with a friend of mine all the time who is in a condo and wants out, because he wants a house --

personally, the last thing I want to think about when I come home is that I need to do some upkeep outside of keeping the place clean.

I'm back in school now -- full time, so I would rather spend my time reading an extra chapter then mowing the lawn.

After I graduated the first time from University I went to work and spent 60 - 70 hours a week working -- either at the office, or at work related functions -- at the beggining i would work from home sometimes, but i found that caused me to loose that "sanctuary" effect of being at home, so i would just stay at the office till it was done -- again, my idea of downtime is taking off out of town for the night -- NOT shoveling snow.

When I finish school again, I expect my work week to shoot up to 80 - 90 and maybe down to 60 after a few years -- the few hours a week not working -- I don't want to spend digging around the garage because something needs to be fixed.

I mean it was fun, finishing the basement, or putting in hardwood with my father at my parents home -- but I hated mowing the lawn or shoveling the snow -- especially when the blow would drive by and block the drive way in <-- not my idea of a relaxing way to spend my sunday morning :) or for that matter and morning where I needed to get up early to do that before I could get out to where I needed to go.

best
 
Hey ~Shard~ -- been a long time, hope all is well

been waiting when you'll chime in. I always respect your incite.

Thanks bud, good to see you around as well. :) And I'm glad you respect my ability to "incite" things, it's always a good skill to have - much insight is required to successfully pull it off. :p (Nothing personal, just being the MacRumors Bastard™ as usual ;)

I don't think any of us on the Condo side of the argument are suggesting renting is better -- but owning a condo satisfies the criteria of appreciating asset and after "x" years having something.

And I wasn't suggesting that at all. In many respects, owning a condo is the best of both worlds. It is not without its own unique drawbacks though of course. (Issues involving condo fees, condo associations, reserve funds, etc.)

you mentioned you enjoy reno's and the like -- and that's great -- I have this discussion with a friend of mine all the time who is in a condo and wants out, because he wants a house --

personally, the last thing I want to think about when I come home is that I need to do some upkeep outside of keeping the place clean.

And that's fair enough - I'm not saying that the first thing I want to do after coming home from a long day at work is to work more. ;) Again, it's just one of those trade-offs. That being said though, since I sit at a desk all day, work on the computer, etc. I actually enjoy engaging in a completely different type of work when I get home to exercise different parts of my brain and in in the case of renos and repairs, my physical body as well - sometimes home repair or reno work is an excellent substitute for the gym! But that's just the way I am - I'm a computer techie Engineer guy at work, and outside of work I love going to the gym, doing manual work such as renos, playing soccer, being active, playing with the symphony orchestra here, etc. - for me it's all about balance, diversity and variety. :)

At the end of the day though, to each their own - you've demonstrated this perfectly with the remainder of your post. Whether it's due to time, cost or other constraints it's perfectly understandable not to want to worry about your home when you're spending time there after a long day - instead just to enjoy your sanctuary stress-free, just as everyone should. :cool:
 
I don't think I really gave you an answer --- but i'm not allowed to even call myself an economist until at least my masters -- and even then ... most economist will never give you a straight answer.

best

You gave me the best answer I have heard so far. Congrats on your pursuing a master's in economics. I loved the one econ class I took in MBA school but it was only the most brief of courses touching a little on micro and some on macro. Basically, most MBA school models call for a semester and the most they get into it is on a supply-demand model, which I know is simplistic.

I know the business related MS degrees in economics, quantitative analysis, accounting, or operations management (and others) are far more detailed and specialized than the general MBA. I thought of an MS instead but there was far too much math. :)

What looked like what happened in Silicon Valley is that the prices shot up so high that a lot of my friends got disgusted and in the 2000s, got out or seriously considered it and then the houses that once were hot suddenly were not. I thought that was simply due to other areas looking far more attractive because the housing prices outside of the Silicon Valley were so much lower.
 
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