Imagination Tech Shares Plunge as Apple Ends Deal With British Firm

[tipoo]

I wouldn't want to be a supplier to Apple.

Because you get paid a lot but can't ride the train to infinity? And also got a years notice of the change...

It sucks for Imagination, really, but from Apples perspective they're not going to hold themselves back to be charitable to another company.

 

[Avieshek]

Well let's hope it isn't S for 'Sales Suspended Due To Legal Action', and Apple and Imagination can come to an adult agreement regarding patent licensing.

Bad news for Imagination, but the writing has been on the wall for a couple of years. They will have to fight harder for more licensees now, but they are also a target for takeover (Samsung may decide it now needs its own in-house GPU).

Samsung is on the verge of talking with nVidia or AMD.
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I beg to differ... They will probably be offering A9 based devices for another 15-24 months (they just released a new iPad!). Those include Imagination technologies graphics. So the "15-24 months from today" could refer to the sell-off period of those. Meaning we could see an Apple graphics based iPhone as soon as... September 2017.

I hope so my friend.

 

[tipoo]

Perhaps Imagination shouldn't have bundled a threat into this press release. That says more about their culture than anything, and perhaps if this is the way they respond, they are just bad partners.

I felt that was more of a signal to shareholders - we may not get as much revenue from Apple, but we still may get a lesser revenue source if we licence out our patents to them, as it would seem unlikely they can build a performant modern GPU without them.

 

[Glideslope]

It should be much cheaper to buy them now..

Yes it will. Not liking Tim's approach these days.

 

[kkamann]

P.S. Here is David Kanter's take on Apple custom GPU: http://www.realworldtech.com/apple-custom-gpu/

Great read if u have the time. For those who are curious to dig deeper and learn more.

 

[trims]

As others have said, I wonder if they are working with ARM to utilise their Mali GPU technology? I guess it can't be too shabby since Samsung use Mali tech in their Exynos chips?

Alternatively, Apple could be developing its own proprietary GPU technology, as suggested in this Wiki entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_A10 , and David Kanter's article - see above.

 

[vvswarup]

What is with you people bashing Apple here? Apple made a business decision to end the deal with Imagination because Apple thought it could do a better job by itself. What's wrong with that? Apple also probably had a number in mind for an acquisition but Imagination's shareholders didn't like the deal so they said no, end of story. What did Apple do wrong by not buying out the company?

 

[deconstruct60]

My bet is someone will gobble it up, question really will be who does. Intel might be a match up as they are currently having to license their GPU stuff from Nvidia and AMD.

Intel used to use PowerVR in their Atom and "small" CPU designs. So they they dumped PowerVR years before Apple will have ( about 2013-2014 ).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_graphics_processing_units#PowerVR_based

If PowerVR was a major winning option for them they would have kept it. Around 2011 or so IBM decided to do it themselves ( at one point they had a stake in ImagineTech. They unwound that stake. https://www.theguardian.com/busines...nologies-slips-as-intel-sells-remaining-stake ). It would make little sense to turn around and buy them up now given they somewhat recently finished dumping it.


MediaTek uses them in their latest "flagship" offering.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/11166/mediatek-helio-x30-10-cores-on-10nm
https://www.imgtec.com/news/press-r...r-savings-in-mediateks-new-helio-x30-chipset/

They volume is ramping up (mainly in non "First World" markets), but not at iPhone levels yet. Could they ramp in two years to match a decent subset of iPhone volume. Perhaps. If ImagineTech could convince Huawei to drop Mali and go to PowerVR that would be a boost too.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/10766/huawei-announces-hisilicon-kirin-960-a73-g71


Not sure if ImagineTech is trying to push MIPs licensing onto folks or ARM is getting better at licensing Mali, but that is one of the stumbling blocks here. ImagineTech tried to make themselves be structured like ARM and it didn't work so well.


Qualcomm might be an option if the price is attractive. Take some of the graphics IP and merge it into Adreno. They may be able to leverage some of the MIPs tech in some other embedded controllers they have also. Apple is sending ripples through their revenue stream too so may not want to lay out the money.

 

[gobikerider]

What is with you people bashing Apple here? Apple made a business decision to end the deal with Imagination because Apple thought it could do a better job by itself. What's wrong with that? Apple also probably had a number in mind for an acquisition but Imagination's shareholders didn't like the deal so they said no, end of story. What did Apple do wrong by not buying out the company?

I am going to laugh in 2 years when the iPhone and iPad implement the first entirely in house SOC and it mops the competitors floor.

 

[Abazigal]

Have you heard about Imagination Technologies management lunacy?

They are pinnacle in terms of ****** and idiotic management in the industry.

Only god knows what they could achieve if the management of IT would be sane, and not made mistakes over last years. All of the talent that Imagination had, is already at Apple. Imagination has nothing to offer to Apple. For those engineers, it was a step up of their game. Apple has much higher capabilities of silicon design, than Imagination. Actually, they are very similar to the best in the business. Possibly even best in the business.


I genuinely suggest people stop talking about things they do not know.

They won't. It's just cool to trash on Apple these days.

 

[deconstruct60]

....
While Apple's eventual chip may have a performance edge, if Imagination chips start showing up more in Android phones and tablets, this could seriously erode Apple's lead in GPU performance, and create a situation where Apple's performance is better, but no longer to such an extreme degree..

It is showing up in some more. MediaTek uses it.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/11166/mediatek-helio-x30-10-cores-on-10nm


Not a huge blow to Apple though because like ARM designs, Apple has been doing some custom work on top of the PowerVR baseline architecture. I don't think MediaTek (or any of the other Android targeting players) are at that stage yet. Part of the catch-22 PowerVR has gotten into is that Apple being the primary customer was driving the design toward Apple's requirements. Those aren't necessarily the requirements of other folks. ARM's Mali which most SoC vendors are licensing the CPU design for is more competitive than it once was (and is probably being sold with an "add on" discount to what they are already buying. )

Apple is gambling a bit. If one of the Chinese majors find a huge chunk of money and talent to throw at this MediaTek ( or Huawei's HiSilicon chip tech company http://www.anandtech.com/show/10766/huawei-announces-hisilicon-kirin-960-a73-g71 ) they could push forward.

Qualcomm is another possibility of money and talent to backfill what ImaginTech has lost recently. (more so merge better tech from PowerVR into Adreno would be likely. A competitor that Apple's A-series SoC already has would get better. ).

The problem is that being a GPU only company is increasingly had. ImaginTech bought MIPs but MIPS had been pretty beaten up by the time they acquired it.

 

[LeonardXW]

Do you think Apple will design the GPU chip with MAC compatibility in mind?

 

[gobikerider]

Do you think Apple will design the GPU chip with MAC compatibility in mind?

Probally not for awhile as I do not see Apple putting their ARM chips into the desktop.

 

[6foot5foot]

It is unusual for Apple to make such a statement about its future plans since they're talking about a couple of years.
And I don't understand why they didn't buy the company since they have plenty of cash. If they're building a custom GPU from the ground up they're going to need a lot of expertise, since they are already stakeholder of Imagination why don't just buy more stocks and acquire the company with all its patents and employees?

You assume Apple doesn't buy in expertise from established companies - they don't just sit around a draftsman's table and design EVERYTHING they do from scratch, they buy in existing, modify, and slot it in.

 

[xnu]

Apple's graphics chips will be 1/2 as fast, 2x as expensive and thin as Pringles®. Good times to look forward to.

 

[LeonardXW]

Probally not for awhile as I do not see Apple putting their ARM chips into the desktop.

I wish Apple will design their own chip for MAC. I don't like they being controlled by Intel. I don't think Intel is good anyway.

 

[makr]

Lovely work Apple. Stand up for LGBT rights, AIDS awareness and bullied dolphins, then totally **** over a hard working, long-time partner, whose staff may well now end up out of work. I am increasingly finding myself at odds with the way this company under Tim COOK operates. But, hey, anything for the profits, right?

It's a company aiming profit, the other one should've done the same and not rely on one customer for a large margin of its profits.

 

[69650]

Because you get paid a lot but can't ride the train to infinity? And also got a years notice of the change...

It sucks for Imagination, really, but from Apples perspective they're not going to hold themselves back to be charitable to another company.

This is not the first supplier Apple has screwed by taking their key employees and stealing their IP.

Apple has turned into everything Steve Jobs hated - they have become IBM.

 

[JDW]

Apple also probably had a number in mind for an acquisition but Imagination's shareholders didn't like the deal so they said no, end of story. What did Apple do wrong by not buying out the company?

Apple might have told Imagination "we're moving to in-house designs" knowing that Imagination would freak out and leak the info to the public which in turn would make their stock plunge. Apple might then buy them out maybe a year or so hence for a very low price, especially if it looked like legal action was going to happen on the part of Imagination.

Unethical? Yes. Illegal? I have no idea, but this is a cross-border arrangement. But if Apple did buy Imagination in the end to build new GPUs "in-house," they would not have lied to Imagination at all. Seems odd that Apple would do something like this, but then again, a lot of things about this move seem odd.

 

[gobikerider]

Apple might have told Imagination "we're moving to in-house designs" knowing that Imagination would freak out and leak the info to the public which in turn would make their stock plunge. Apple might then buy them out maybe a year or so hence for a very low price, especially if it looked like legal action was going to happen on the part of Imagination.

Unethical? Yes. Illegal? I have no idea, but this is a cross-border arrangement. But if Apple did buy Imagination in the end to build new GPUs "in-house," they would not have lied to Imagination at all. Seems odd that Apple would do something like this, but then again, a lot of things about this move seem odd.

This has been a foreseen thing for awhile now, nothing really surprising expect timing I didn't foresee this happening for a couple years down road.

 

[randian]

I thought about that, but it would be very mean to make such an announcement in order to ruin a company and acquire it

Such blatant manipulation would result in a nasty visit from the SEC. Apple pretty much can't buy Imagination after this announcement.
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One example that Apple will ditch Intel one day too: to pay Intel $250 USD for a CPU, or to have the IP to make x86 chip yourself for $30 USD. I think you can do the math. Apple needs its big cut and same time it needs to be competitive. The less there are mouth to feed, the better for them.

Why would Intel give Apple an x86 license (like the one AMD has) for any price, let alone a price that makes sense given the cost difference you give?

 

[JDW]

Such blatant manipulation would result in a nasty visit from the SEC.

But "nasty visit" doesn't mean penalties or arrest. Is it really "illegal"?

Apple didn't leak this info. Imagination did. And since only Apple and Imagination know exactly what was said, Apple could deny having said what Imagination alleges.

 

[gobikerider]

But "nasty visit" doesn't mean penalties or arrest. Is it really "illegal"?

Apple didn't leak this info. Imagination did. And since only Apple and Imagination know exactly what was said, Apple could deny having said what Imagination alleges.

Nothing was leaked Imagination simply made a announcement that they and Apple have decided on, idk why everyone thinks there is shady business afloat. It's a partnership that Apple decided to end and they cannot be blamed if Imagination happened to rely on them for 50% of their revenue.

 

[macs4nw]

Apple didn't make it public, Imagination did.

It will also be almost impossible to build a GPU from scratch without infringing on Patents already in place. This could come back to bite them in the backside in a few years.

This appears to have all the makings of coming patent lawsuits, and NDA violation cases. We'll see how this plays out in a few years time.

 

[szw-mapple fan]

One can always argue it was a **** move of Apple to poach the employees and then leave the company to shrivel away, but it was of course way cheaper and we have no idea, perhaps the CEO was impossible to work with or something.

What is for sure though is that for every empty company carcass that Apple leaves behind after just eating them up and spitting out the remains, some companies might actually get second thoughts about working with Apple. Sure, in the short run, they might make loads of money, but in the long run, the companies might go belly up when Apple leaves them after poaching all the employees and knowledge.
It might actually hurt Apple that they seem very reluctant to buy companies they've worked with for years. Someday some company with vital technology might decline to work with Apple due to the risk of being "destroyed".

It sounds like the company providing Apple with their IP and then simply collects royalties. Apple leaving would simply mean the company's revenue will shrink to the amount they had before the partnership. Besides, even if a company with "vital technology" decline to work with Apple, Apple can still poach their employees. While I wouldn't say it was a win for Imagination Tech, these years of partnering with Apple did provide them with large amounts of cash they otherwise wouldn't have gotten.