Immersion Files Second Haptic Feedback Lawsuit Against Apple

[kdarling]

Someone needs to tell these guys that AT&T isn't the only company that sells the iPhone any more! Wow. At least they didn't name Cingular. From what others have stated, I get that they're not patent trolls—BUT pulling in AT&T seems very Trolley McTrollerson.

I had two Verizon touchscreen phones before I got the iPhone and they both had similar Taptic feedback. I wonder why they aren't suing them instead? I guess that's not where the money is.

Verizon and Samsung were the first to put out an entire phone ecosystem using Immersion technology back in 2005 or so.

So it's a pretty good guess that Verizon has a license for the phones they sell.

I have no idea if Immersion has a case or not, or if they are a patent troll or not. But I will say that the fact that other companies have licensed Immersion tech is irrelevant.

Legally, it's very relevant. It means other large corporations either acknowledged the patents, or fought them and lost.

One thing doesn't look good to me though. Immersion is located in San Joe and Apple is located in Cupertino. A logical and convenient location would be to file the lawsuit in California, such as when Apple filed a lawsuit against Samsung. However, Immersion filed the lawsuit in Delaware, a known patent troll haven second only to East Texas.

California juries are well known to favor Apple. And from what I can tell, Immersion is apparently incorporated in Delaware. Which state would you pick if you were Immersion?

Companies who are confident of their patents do like Delaware because the judges are technically experienced, and trials are fair and over fast. Also, IIRC, over 90% of cases are settled out of court beforehand. (Remember Nokia v. Apple?)

 

[PaulRustad007]

I was just awarded U.S. Patent Number 8,675,309: "Method for utilizing a circular arc in multiple segments, conjoined."

I now own the letter 0 and number 0. Pay up, people. I can not wait until I got after Merriam-Webster.....

 

[iSRS]

So patent on haptic feedback, a concept many are familiar with just have not executed on much. That's great. How about patent digital camera but making the patent sound obscure with something something coverting photons a electrical signal. Oh right, kodak did do that.

I do agree our current system is broken, and allows for too much vagueness. But doesn't mean Apple intentionally infringed. Immersion is suing, Apple is going to pay, but now looking for the best deal it can get.

Also, Immersion is suing Apple over the iPhone 6. Really? Could they be that stupid? Haptic feedback is only part of Apple devices with Force Touch, which the iPhone 6 certainly doesn't have. Add to that the fact they are suing AT&T and this just makes them look like morons IMO.

That is where my sympathy for Immersion ends. Including the 6 line, and AT&T (with all other carriers to follow if they win) does seem like a shady tactic. These parts, at least, should be thrown out

 

[kkamann]

Macrumors forums are so blessed to have so many patent law experts on here...

 

[iSRS]

California juries are well known to favor Apple. And from what I can tell, Immersion is apparently incorporated in Delaware. Which state would you pick if you were Immersion?

Companies who are confident of their patents do like Delaware because the judges are technically experienced, and trials are fair and over fast. Also, IIRC, over 90% of cases are settled out of court beforehand. (Remember Nokia v. Apple?)

True. So they are a Delaware company, even though they are HQ'd in California.

Imagine the hate some companies would take for doing that.

Interesting points in why Delaware.

http://www.bendlawoffice.com/2011/08/01/reasons-to-incorporate-in-delaware/

 

[kdarling]

Also, Immersion is suing Apple over the iPhone 6. Really? Could they be that stupid?

Well, let's think about that. Hmm. Nope, it's unlikely they're that stupid.

Therefore it's much more probable that you do not have enough information. So let's fix that:

Haptic feedback is only part of Apple devices with Force Touch, which the iPhone 6 certainly doesn't have. Add to that the fact they are suing AT&T and this just makes them look like morons IMO.

All the listed patents do not apply to all the listed devices.

The ones related to Force Touch apply to the Mac. The ones related to 3D Touch apply to the iPhone.

AT&T is included because they enable Apple to sell devices that violate the patents. Similar to the way that Apple attacked all the Samsung dealers in Europe, and the way that Apple always claims in their own lawsuits that subsidiaries enable violation of their patents. It's a common tactic that adds pressure and possible intentional violations.

True. So they are a Delaware company, even though they are HQ'd in California.

Imagine the hate some companies would take for doing that.

You mean like the way that Apple and other major corporations have an HQ in California, enjoy California tech culture and weather, use California resources and courts, and yet funnel all their earnings through a shill company in Nevada to avoid paying California revenue taxes.

Apple also quite often files for trademarks ahead of time, using shill Delaware corporations to hide their identity. Pretty useful, that.

 

[cwagner1]

If Apple were to disclose all of its patent infringement lawsuit settlement amounts, I wonder how much it would actually add up to?

That number should be relatively easy to come up with. It should be an entry in the companies quarterly SEC reports.
[doublepost=1462539393][/doublepost]

Good for you Immersion, go get em.

I do believe that Immersion INVENTED/ INNOVATED/ DEVELOPED/ BROUGHT TO MARKET the technologies it is suing for.

Here is the previous story highlighting how they actually make their stuff, they are NOT patent trolls as the Apple apologists will have you believe:

https://www.macrumors.com/2016/02/11/immersion-haptic-feedback-apple-lawsuit/

If companies want to use others technologies they need to pay to do so.

They are either trolls or have really crappy lawyers. Including AT&T in the suite leads me to believe and including the iPhone 6 and 6 plus which don't have haptic feedback leads me to believe they are trolling. Or maybe the just hired really bad lawyers.

 

[kdarling]

They are either trolls or have really crappy lawyers. Including AT&T in the suite leads me to believe and including the iPhone 6 and 6 plus which don't have haptic feedback leads me to believe they are trolling. Or maybe the just hired really bad lawyers.

Yes, yes that must be it. Really bad lawyers, who've somehow accidentally gotten every other major corporation to license their patents.

Or, perhaps not. Maybe the patents don't all apply to all the deivces. And maybe they're just using the same common legal tactics that Apple lawyers have used on others.

Read my post above yours for an explanation.

 

[apolloa]

They are either trolls or have really crappy lawyers. Including AT&T in the suite leads me to believe and including the iPhone 6 and 6 plus which don't have haptic feedback leads me to believe they are trolling. Or maybe the just hired really bad lawyers.

Absolutely, I 100% agree, I mean ANY COMPANY THAT SUES APPLE HAS TO BE A PATENT TROLL DESPITE THE FACT THEY INVENTED THE TECHNOLOGY AND PATENTED IT AND OTHER HUGE CORPORATIONS PAY TO LICENSE THE TECHNOLOGY OR HAVE LOST IN COURT AGAINST THEM.
BUT BECAUSE IT'S APPLE THEY HAVE TO BE PATENT TROLLS, NO OTHER EXPLANATION!!

AT&T are included as according to a post here they need to have a license to sell the technology, and Apple threatened to sue suppliers if they didn't do similar with the iPhone, that's what has been posted on here about the matter.
The iPhone 6 has a vibration motor yes? It vibrates in games etc that's haptic feedback. A games controller is the same.

 

[Vanilla35]

They are suing AT&T for a completely pointless reason. It reeks of desperation and it seems like a complete money grab; you know, patent troll behavior.

It's both. 1) They own the patent, and have sued for it before. 2) They want to win the case, and adding AT&T to the suit gives them an edge. I would assume that any patent holder who takes action would be defined as exhibiting "troll behavior"

Absolutely, I 100% agree, I mean ANY COMPANY THAT SUES APPLE HAS TO BE A PATENT TROLL DESPITE THE FACT THEY INVENTED THE TECHNOLOGY AND PATENTED IT AND OTHER HUGE CORPORATIONS PAY TO LICENSE THE TECHNOLOGY OR HAVE LOST IN COURT AGAINST THEM.
BUT BECAUSE IT'S APPLE THEY HAVE TO BE PATENT TROLLS, NO OTHER EXPLANATION!!

AT&T are included as according to a post here they need to have a license to sell the technology, and Apple threatened to sue suppliers if they didn't do similar with the iPhone, that's what has been posted on here about the matter.
The iPhone 6 has a vibration motor yes? It vibrates in games etc that's haptic feedback. A games controller is the same.

What this guy said

 

[Michaelgtrusa]

Good for you Immersion, go get em.

I do believe that Immersion INVENTED/ INNOVATED/ DEVELOPED/ BROUGHT TO MARKET the technologies it is suing for.

Here is the previous story highlighting how they actually make their stuff, they are NOT patent trolls as the Apple apologists will have you believe:

https://www.macrumors.com/2016/02/11/immersion-haptic-feedback-apple-lawsuit/

If companies want to use others technologies they need to pay to do so.

Some nations believe that the technology should be transferred to them that way they can take credit for it's existence and state to the world that they invented it.

 

[Vanilla35]

Yes, yes that must be it. Really bad lawyers, who've somehow accidentally gotten every other major corporation to license their patents.

Or, perhaps not. Maybe the patents don't all apply to all the deivces. And maybe they're just using the same common legal tactics that Apple lawyers have used on others.

Read my post above yours for an explanation.

No doubt apple attempted to construct 3D touch in such a way that might have bypassed the patent in place here. Considering how many other companies have complied, it is highly unlikely that they simply missed the knowledge of this patent's existence, and infringed upon it unknowingly.

 

[Schwyz]

The future:

Apple loses the case.

Forced to pay Immersion.

Apple buys an Immersion license.

Everyone forgets this ever happened.

 

[ChrisCW11]

Well, haptic feedback was around for a while and Apple did nothing innovative with it. The fact they started using it recently many years after all the competition doesn't mean that they did something novel with the original IP. The idea of buzzing when you tap an on-screen item was around long before the iPhone.

If there is one thing I truly hate about Apple is the fact that they act like a monolithic tech company that is somehow independent from the world's tech innovation process, so instead of working with and enhancing tech with other companies they strive to find ways of weaponizing patents against their competition and file their own cloned patents with creative wording to obscure the real innovator and claim the idea as their own.

The whole point of the patent process is to disclose innovation and allow cooperation and collaboration to help improve and make it better, not steal ideas because you have a bigger bunch of high paid shysters that use creative language to obscure the real inventor of an idea and claim it as your own.

If Apple actually worked with others rather than trying to destroy all competition and ignore the innovation process that smaller companies try to participate in, think of how much better both Apple products could be and the world of technology in general.

This is the one of the lasts vestigial remnants of the Steve Jobs era, acting like a bully and wanting to destroy all competition and ignoring other people's innovation until Apple tried to claim it as their own. While I haven't seen this kind of blatant rip-offs from Apple in a while, hopefully Tim Cook can help steer the company into a more collaborative company rather than assume that Apple can remain 100% isolated from the tech community. If another company truly innovative haptic feedback and Apple is infringing on it, then Apple needs to pay up, but hopefully the out-come is to work with the original innovators and come up with a mutually beneficial improvement, the way patents were intended to be used for.

 

[teknishn]

Man these comments kill me. Everybody uses everybody's kit. It is just the way it is. Sometimes intentional and for good reason, other times an amicable deal can be reached prior to introducing a product that may or may not infringe. There are a few different reasons these lawsuits happen, but here are a couple specifically to Apple...

1) Company wants Apple to pay up on patent/s that are dubious, invalid, or not applicable. A lot of times these companies are desperate and grasping at straws
2) Company is a patent troll (no explanation here)
3) Apple would happily license the IP; however, since its 'Apple' they want to charge 2-3x the normal rate they would charge any other company. (most people/commentors miss this one)

I believe Immersion slots into the #3 category, but regardless of category, Apple still has to take on all of these situations in court. They cant be expected to constantly pay orders of magnitude more than everyone else.

 

[John Mcgregor]

Macrumors forums are so blessed to have so many patent law experts on here...

That's the problem with the system and the law. You need multiple experts to explain something and then those experts don't agree between themselves. It has to be clear cut and simple, so that anyone can understand it and explain it.

And lets be honest there is nothing more vague than a patent, well maybe woman mind, buts i digress.

 

[teknishn]

Absolutely, I 100% agree, I mean ANY COMPANY THAT SUES APPLE HAS TO BE A PATENT TROLL DESPITE THE FACT THEY INVENTED THE TECHNOLOGY AND PATENTED IT AND OTHER HUGE CORPORATIONS PAY TO LICENSE THE TECHNOLOGY OR HAVE LOST IN COURT AGAINST THEM.
BUT BECAUSE IT'S APPLE THEY HAVE TO BE PATENT TROLLS, NO OTHER EXPLANATION!!

AT&T are included as according to a post here they need to have a license to sell the technology, and Apple threatened to sue suppliers if they didn't do similar with the iPhone, that's what has been posted on here about the matter.
The iPhone 6 has a vibration motor yes? It vibrates in games etc that's haptic feedback. A games controller is the same.

Oooo caps, do you think that makes you any less stupid sounding. 'Every' company egregiously borrows others IP.... all of them. You know what the only difference is between Apple and everyone else is? Because it has the word Apple in it, its a major news/headline event. You don't see the 1000s of other lawsuits involving Samsung, LG, Sony, HTC, Qualcomm, Google, Microsoft, Intel, AMD, Nvidia.... the list is endless. All you hear about is Apple. Apple this Apple that, Apple sued again. OMG I hate Apple because I think they steal IP because the news says so... and everyone else are saints that properly license everything.

A large portion of these lawsuits are brought by desperate companies with frivolous or invalid IP. Others with legitimate claims can work out an amicable arrangement. Apple licenses crap loads of IP... they also acquire craploads of it outright. Then there is the issue of Apple wanting to license IP, but the patent holder wants to charge a buttload more than any of the other licensees simply because... 'Apple'. This is why they go to court.

Btw, Immersion has also sued Microsoft, Sony and countless others. In every case that I can find the lawsuits were dropped and amicable settlements reached. I expect no different from this one. Especially because these look like legit quality patents from a company that actually works hard on its IP.... ie, not a patent troll.

 

[Agilis]

This Immersion company is really desperate and annoying. That is all this is. A desperate act to try to protect their intellectual property.

By bringing on these lawsuits, they are trying to prevent companies like Apple from creating or inventing something better that will replace the use of their technology. Immersion knows that other companies, like Apple, have the resources to create something better.

These lawsuits are simply a device to try to keep companies away. Immersion can keep waving their stick at Apple and other companies, but soon the stick will break and we will soon hear Immersion's swan song.

 

[Gasu E.]

Why are they suing AT&T? Every other major carrier in the US also sells the iPhone 6s. They should also be suing Verizon, T-Mobile, and Sprint with that logic! And hey, why not Best Buy and other retailers too while they are at it? It makes no sense to me, unless they are just trying for a money grab.

"AT&T offers guides, directions, and other materials that 'encourage and facilitate infringing use by others.'"
[doublepost=1462547054][/doublepost]

Immersion's patent lawsuit, in which the company requests a jury trial and seeks compensatory damages, is accompanied by a second complaint with the U.S. International Trade Commission, seeking an inclusion order to prevent the sale of the accused Apple devices in the United States.

I don't have a problem with the lawsuits, especially as this company appears to be legit. But these ITC cases are ridiculous , particularly for an incidental technology. The ITC is not a court of law; it is a governmental agency that ONLY has the power to ban the sale of products outright. I think the ITC should be throwing these cases out, unless the technology in question is at the core of the product value and function.

In the case of the courts, they can resolve these cases through monetary awards or by ordering arbitration, both of which seem commensurate (if there really is a violation, of course).

 

[teknishn]

"I don't have a problem with the lawsuits, especially as this company appears to be legit. But these ITC cases are ridiculous , particularly for an incidental technology. The ITC is not a court of law; it is a governmental agency that ONLY has the power to ban the sale of products outright. I think the ITC should be throwing these cases out, unless the technology in question is at the core of the product value and function.

Totally agree... the ITC shouldnt be banning anything until the court case is decided. Seriously, can you imagine a product being banned by the ITC and then have that product exonerated in court.

 

[Brad9893]

Well, let's think about that. Hmm. Nope, it's unlikely they're that stupid.

Therefore it's much more probable that you do not have enough information. So let's fix that:



All the listed patents do not apply to all the listed devices.

The ones related to Force Touch apply to the Mac. The ones related to 3D Touch apply to the iPhone.

AT&T is included because they enable Apple to sell devices that violate the patents. Similar to the way that Apple attacked all the Samsung dealers in Europe, and the way that Apple always claims in their own lawsuits that subsidiaries enable violation of their patents. It's a common tactic that adds pressure and possible intentional violations.

I haven't the faintest idea why you are treating me like I'm someone who doesn't have "enough information". I think my viewpoint is perfectly correct and that you are the one who is not looking at this sensibly. The iPhone 6 and 6 Plus do NOT have 3D Touch. The feature was introduced with the iPhone 6s and 6s Plus. There is no way that these patents they have could ever apply to those earlier devices. The iPhone 6 uses the exact same vibration technology that previous iPhones uses, and those phones clearly did not violate any patents as they possess no haptic feedback.

AT&T is included for those rather dubious reasons. But why not other carriers? Verizon Wireless, T-Mobile, and Sprint also sell the iPhone and, as you say it, "enable Apple to sell devices that violate the patents". By their logic, they should be serving up all wireless providers in the US with lawsuits. And hey, while they at that it, they should also be suing Best Buy, Amazon, and countless other Apple Authorized Resellers, because they also have a hand in this and "enable Apple to sell devices that violate the patents". This part of the lawsuit is not consistent and logical in any way. It smells of a money grab, because AT&T also has boatloads of money.

Apple may have attacked all of the Samsung dealers in Europe, but the keyword here is ALL. You are not admitting to them singling out dealers are you...in the way that Immersion is singling out AT&T Mobility? That's what I have a problem with.

They are allowed to use whatever tactics they wish for to add pressure to whatever company they want to rake over the coals, but I reserve the right to think their tactics are moronic at best, especially when it seems like certain parts of this lawsuit make no sense whatsoever. To sum it up, t's bereft of consistency in the products and companies they are suing.

I still standby with I said. They come off as stupid.

 

[teknishn]

I haven't the faintest idea why you are treating me like I'm someone who doesn't have "enough information". I think my viewpoint is perfectly correct and that you are the one who is not looking at this sensibly. The iPhone 6 and 6 Plus do NOT have 3D Touch. The feature was introduced with the iPhone 6s and 6s Plus. There is no way that these patents they have could ever apply to those earlier devices. The iPhone 6 uses the exact same vibration technology that previous iPhones uses, and those phones clearly did not violate any patents as they possess no haptic feedback.

AT&T is included for those rather dubious reasons. But why not other carriers? Verizon Wireless, T-Mobile, and Sprint also sell the iPhone and, as you say it, "enable Apple to sell devices that violate the patents". By their logic, they should be serving up all wireless providers in the US with lawsuits. And hey, while they at that it, they should also be suing Best Buy, Amazon, and countless other Apple Authorized Resellers, because they also have a hand in this and "enable Apple to sell devices that violate the patents". This part of the lawsuit is not consistent and logical in any way. It smells of a money grab, because AT&T also has boatloads of money.

Apple may have attacked all of the Samsung dealers in Europe, but the keyword here is ALL. You are not admitting to them singling out dealers are you...in the way that Immersion is singling out AT&T Mobility? That's what I have a problem with.

They are allowed to use whatever tactics they wish for to add pressure to whatever company they want to rake over the coals, but I reserve the right to think their tactics are moronic at best, especially when it seems like certain parts of this lawsuit make no sense whatsoever. To sum it up, t's bereft of consistency in the products and companies they are suing.

Agreed, the AT&T thing is a real head scratcher. Why not all the other mobile providers? What about 100s of almost every retailer out there selling iPhones... even Ebay.

 

[Brad9893]

"AT&T offers guides, directions, and other materials that 'encourage and facilitate infringing use by others.'"
[doublepost=1462547054][/doublepost]

I don't have a problem with the lawsuits, especially as this company appears to be legit. But these ITC cases are ridiculous , particularly for an incidental technology. The ITC is not a court of law; it is a governmental agency that ONLY has the power to ban the sale of products outright. I think the ITC should be throwing these cases out, unless the technology in question is at the core of the product value and function.

In the case of the courts, they can resolve these cases through monetary awards or by ordering arbitration, both of which seem commensurate (if there really is a violation, of course).

So do countless other companies whether they be wireless providers or retailers who sell Apple products. AT&T is no different and a suit against them (without also including others) is not consistent and makes little sense. If AT&T is going to be punished for this, then the rest should be punished also.

 

[Col4bin]

That number should be relatively easy to come up with. It should be an entry in the companies quarterly SEC reports.

The question was rhetorical.

 

[kdarling]

No doubt apple attempted to construct 3D touch in such a way that might have bypassed the patent in place here. Considering how many other companies have complied, it is highly unlikely that they simply missed the knowledge of this patent's existence, and infringement upon it unknowingly.

Yep, that's always possible.

The way these things go is almost always the same. The stock legal defense that MS, Apple and others use is: 1) the patents are invalid, 2) if they are valid, we did not infringe them, 3) if we did infringe, they're only worth pennies

This Immersion company is really desperate and annoying. That is all this is. A desperate act to try to protect their intellectual property.

*scratching head* Well, yes. That's the point... to defend their IP.

By bringing on these lawsuits, they are trying to prevent companies like Apple from creating or inventing something better that will replace the use of their technology. Immersion knows that other companies, like Apple, have the resources to create something better.

Actually, one purpose of a patent is that it makes infringing companies try to invent something better.

This is not to say that I don't think some of Immersions patents are obvious to someone in the field, but only the court's opinion matters.

Totally agree... the ITC shouldnt be banning anything until the court case is decided. Seriously, can you imagine a product being banned by the ITC and then have that product exonerated in court.

Apple also files with the ITC. It's a common tactic, because the ITC is so much faster. And often trials will wait until the ITC has ruled on a patent's validity and infringement first.

The iPhone 6 and 6 Plus do NOT have 3D Touch. The feature was introduced with the iPhone 6s and 6s Plus. There is no way that these patents they have could ever apply to those earlier devices.

As I said, I don't think you have all the info. This lawsuit only addresses the 6S models. (Did MacRumors change their article after you read it, perhaps?)

AT&T is included for those rather dubious reasons. But why not other carriers?

Because of past dealings, it's almost certain that Verizon has a license with Immersion. Others might, too.

It smells of a money grab, because AT&T also has boatloads of money.

As I mentioned, Apple does the same thing in many of their lawsuits against others. They will name a partner of the alleged infringer, which puts on pressure.

I still standby with I said. They come off as stupid.

They're doing everything that Apple does in their own lawsuits. Are Apple lawyers stupid?