Immersion Files Second Haptic Feedback Lawsuit Against Apple

[techconc]

Good for you Immersion, go get em.

I do believe that Immersion INVENTED/ INNOVATED/ DEVELOPED/ BROUGHT TO MARKET the technologies it is suing for.

Here is the previous story highlighting how they actually make their stuff, they are NOT patent trolls as the Apple apologists will have you believe:

https://www.macrumors.com/2016/02/11/immersion-haptic-feedback-apple-lawsuit/

If companies want to use others technologies they need to pay to do so.

The court will have to decide on the specifics. However, you should be aware that Apple has a substantial patent portfolio and has indeed invented much of this technology as well.
http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/haptics/

I should add that Immersion is but a mere footnote in the history of haptic technology.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haptic_technology

If Apple is guilty, they should pay. However, given the history of haptic technology and Apple's own vast array of patents in this area, I would imagine Immersion has an uphill battle in front of them.

 

[kdarling]

The trouble with a lot of these patents for touch, gestures, haptics, and so on, is that if anyone spends serious time experimenting in a specific field, they often will end up independently inventing similar ideas and methods.

Independent invention is a valid defense for copyright infringement (i.e. coming up with similar music or story lines), but not for utility patents.

Although some people think it should be.

 

[ActionableMango]

Legally, it's very relevant. It means other large corporations either acknowledged the patents, or fought them and lost.

That's a possibility. Or, as I said, those companies simply decided it was cheaper to license than to fight for what's right.

So the fact that they've licensed their patents is, by itself, not evidence one way or the other as to whether Immersion is a patent troll or a truly inventive company.

This American Life did an enlightening couple of episodes on patent trolls, and there are definitely patent trolls that have long records of getting companies to license their nonsense. That's their entire business model. If none of them were selling licenses, they wouldn't be such a big business in the first place.

For anyone interested in in hearing about patent trolls or how the patent system is broken in the USA, these are enlightening radio episodes:

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/441/when-patents-attack
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/496/when-patents-attack-part-two

 

[kdarling]

That's a possibility. Or, as I said, those companies simply decided it was cheaper to license than to fight for what's right.

I think HTC fought, and lost. I know that Sony fought and lost.

Others decided the patents were too strong and paid up.

MS not only paid up, they bought a stake in the company.

So the fact that they've licensed their patents is, by itself, not evidence one way or the other as to whether Immersion is a patent troll or a truly inventive company.

The usual definition of a patent troll is an IP holding company that has buys patents and goes around looking for possible infringers to sue.

On the totally flip side, Immersion has been researching, inventing and licensing haptics to major companies since the mid 1990s. So, not a troll, but a software company with almost two thousand patents around the world, defending their IP.

 

[ActionableMango]

I think HTC fought, and lost. I know that Sony fought and lost.

Crappy patents win in court all the time. They file the lawsuits in very specific small towns with juries favorable to the patent holders. Those towns are literally lobbied/donated to/bribed by companies involved in patent disputes.

On the totally flip side, Immersion has been researching, inventing and licensing haptics to major companies since the mid 1990s. So, not a troll, but a software company with almost two thousand patents around the world, defending their IP.

I think you and I have very different points and are talking past each other. My point is, licensing is not evidence in itself that a company isn't a patent troll. My point was never "Immersion is a patent troll".

 

[Brad9893]

Yep, that's always possible.

As I said, I don't think you have all the info. This lawsuit only addresses the 6S models. (Did MacRumors change their article after you read it, perhaps?)

Because of past dealings, it's almost certain that Verizon has a license with Immersion. Others might, too.



As I mentioned, Apple does the same thing in many of their lawsuits against others. They will name a partner of the alleged infringer, which puts on pressure.



They're doing everything that Apple does in their own lawsuits. Are Apple lawyers stupid?

No, they didn't change the article.

This is Immersion's second lawsuit against Apple and AT&T. The first lawsuit they filed in February was the one that addressed the iPhone 6. They don't seem to backing off that one, despite the fact that there is no merit for their assertion, and are just taking the opportunity to add more models. Here is the part of the post:

"In the original lawsuit filed in February of 2016, Immersion accused Apple and AT&T of infringing on three patents with the iPhone 6, 6s, 6 Plus, 6s Plus, Apple Watch, Apple Watch Sport, and Apple Watch Edition. Immersion has added AT&T to the lawsuit because AT&T sells Apple products and offers guides, directions, and other materials that "encourage and facilitate infringing use by others."

Perhaps I am incorrect for doing so, but I was looking at this from a conflict perspective and not isolating the lawsuits. This second suit is clearly a continuation from the original action in February to me, and they are still suing over iPhone 6, so I felt okay in grouping them together.

Even if Verizon has a license with Immersion, I'm not quite sure why individual wireless carriers would need to license Immersion's patents to sell products that also use them. Is Immersion attempting to say that they think that not only should the manufacturers license the patent, but anyone who sells the product should also be licensing the patent from them in order to sell it (if that is indeed their reason for not suing Verizon and other carriers)? That's a little extreme if that is the angle they are taking, don't you think? What's next? Is Amazon going to have to start licensing any and all patents that were used/licensed in each and every one of the products they are selling? Also, Walmart and BestBuy also sell iPhones. Are they going to be forced to license Immersion's patents if they wish to sell customers iPhones, because I don't see how they are any different than a carrier. There should only need to be one license taken out per device, and it should be the responsibility of the company designing and manufacturing the product. Immersion should not be trying to force anyone who wants to sell Apple products to start licensing haptic feedback patents from them. If this is indeed the case, then it only lends credence to the patent troll theory, no matter how legitimate of a company they are (unlike the ones we can all agree are patent trolls).

Let's look at it from another angle too. If Verizon has licenses to Immersion's patents for the phones they sell using Immersion IP, then they are covered for ALL of the phones they sell, no matter whether they are iPhone or Android, right? Now, a lot of Android manufacturers license Immersion patents for the haptic feedback tech used in their phones. Since these phone makers and Verizon license the patents, then it's okay and the reason that Immersion is not suing Verizon (or the phone makers). Now, AT&T definitely does not license the patents as they are being sued for IP infringement. But, the thing is, they sell a lot of the same phones that Verizon does...phones that use the same haptic feedback technology, from the same companies. So why is AT&T only being sued for patent infringement with respect to the iPhone then? Since AT&T is not a licensee, shouldn't Immersion be bringing all of the Android phones they sell that use their patents also?

Now I know that I am prone to overthinking things, but no matter how hard I try and no matter what others say, I still can't get certain parts of this lawsuit to make a lick of sense to me. I still think they are coming off as stupid and inconsistent. I understand that they are trying to add pressure by naming a partner, but I still value consistency and sensible thinking. This is not consistent to me, nor is it sensible. I guess I just don't have a lot of respect for the shenanigans that go on amongst large companies like this.

I know that Apple does the same things in their lawsuits, and I feel the exact same way towards them as I do towards Immersion right now. I am not defending Apple; in fact, the only company I've defended is AT&T (as much as it pains me to do so). I am only trying to point out things about this lawsuit that I think are foolish or don't make much sense. And I do think a lot of things Apple's lawyers have argued for have been extremely stupid. I mean, trying to defend the rectangle with rounded corners patent was absurd and silly. And that's just one example.

 

[Mr.Scarface]

Immersion has been around for years. The force feedback in Playstation and Xbox game controllers is licensed Immersion tech. Sony removed force feedback in the original ps3 controller because they didnt want to license the tech anymore. That last for about a year or so before they released another dual shock. Many Game Controllers over the years have licensed Immersion's technology.

 

[apolloa]

Oooo caps, do you think that makes you any less stupid sounding. 'Every' company egregiously borrows others IP.... all of them. You know what the only difference is between Apple and everyone else is? Because it has the word Apple in it, its a major news/headline event. You don't see the 1000s of other lawsuits involving Samsung, LG, Sony, HTC, Qualcomm, Google, Microsoft, Intel, AMD, Nvidia.... the list is endless. All you hear about is Apple. Apple this Apple that, Apple sued again. OMG I hate Apple because I think they steal IP because the news says so... and everyone else are saints that properly license everything.

A large portion of these lawsuits are brought by desperate companies with frivolous or invalid IP. Others with legitimate claims can work out an amicable arrangement. Apple licenses crap loads of IP... they also acquire craploads of it outright. Then there is the issue of Apple wanting to license IP, but the patent holder wants to charge a buttload more than any of the other licensees simply because... 'Apple'. This is why they go to court.

Btw, Immersion has also sued Microsoft, Sony and countless others. In every case that I can find the lawsuits were dropped and amicable settlements reached. I expect no different from this one. Especially because these look like legit quality patents from a company that actually works hard on its IP.... ie, not a patent troll.

No you do not hear about Apple being sued, you hear about Apple only being sued on an Apple fan website! Looking beyond this site shows otherwise, your post is rather ridiculous, first you call me stupid, then you seem to somehow attempt to apologize for Apple by posting how they have lots of IP themselves.
And then you post a sentence agreeing with what I said even though you called it stupid???

The court will have to decide on the specifics. However, you should be aware that Apple has a substantial patent portfolio and has indeed invented much of this technology as well.
http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/haptics/

I should add that Immersion is but a mere footnote in the history of haptic technology.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haptic_technology

If Apple is guilty, they should pay. However, given the history of haptic technology and Apple's own vast array of patents in this area, I would imagine Immersion has an uphill battle in front of them.

So don't you honestly believe if Apple invented and help IP patents for these technologies itself, which means the patent office in America gave two companies patents for THE EXACT SAME THING that Apple would have sued Sony, Microsoft, Google, Samsung, AT&T etc etc etc for all using it's IP without paying them?

I think considering they sued those companies Immersion has anything BUT an uphill struggle in-front of them, I think you need a different view point on this not blinded by Apple loyalty.

I think we are going to enter a period where Apple is attacked hard by others now, considering the way they themselves have behaved they deserve it.
I cannot wait for the American Supreme Court to hear the Samsung case, something oh soooooo many on here claimed would never happen ever ever ever...

 

[sw1tcher]

This Immersion company is really desperate and annoying. That is all this is. A desperate act to try to protect their intellectual property.

By bringing on these lawsuits, they are trying to prevent companies like Apple from creating or inventing something better that will replace the use of their technology. Immersion knows that other companies, like Apple, have the resources to create something better.

These lawsuits are simply a device to try to keep companies away. Immersion can keep waving their stick at Apple and other companies, but soon the stick will break and we will soon hear Immersion's swan song.

Let me fix what you wrote since Apple has sued to protect their IP too.

This Apple company is really desperate and annoying. That is all this is. A desperate act to try to protect their intellectual property.

By bringing on these lawsuits, they are trying to prevent companies like Microsoft, HTC, Motorola, and Samsung from creating or inventing something better that will replace the use of their technology. Apple knows that other companies, like Microsoft and Samsung, have the resources to create something better.

These lawsuits are simply a device to try to keep companies away. Apple can keep waving their stick at Microsoft, HTC, Samsung, and other companies, but soon the stick will break and we will soon hear Apple's swan song.

 

[techconc]

I think considering they sued those companies Immersion has anything BUT an uphill struggle in-front of them, I think you need a different view point on this not blinded by Apple loyalty.

I think we are going to enter a period where Apple is attacked hard by others now, considering the way they themselves have behaved they deserve it.
I cannot wait for the American Supreme Court to hear the Samsung case, something oh soooooo many on here claimed would never happen ever ever ever...

Apple loyalty? Where did you get that from anything I've said? I specifically stated that "if" Apple is guilty, they should pay. On the other hand, you seem to have a hard on hoping for Apple to get sued. Do you honestly think Samsung didn't copy Apple? Did you see what Samsung phones looked like before and after Apple? Did you see the court evidence where Samsung leadership dissected the iPhone and instructed their team to essentially copy what Apple did? Seriously, you can't look at the Samsung / Apple case and conclude that Samsung did not copy and infringe on patents.
Regarding immersion, I honestly haven't done a deep dive into their patent claims. However, I do know this. Immersion didn't invent haptic technology. It has existed long before Immersion. In fact, Immersion is but a small footnote in the history and evolution of haptic technology. For that matter, Apple has also pioneered quite a bit here. They amassed quite a few patents in this area before they brought a single product to market. Likewise, it is clear to me that Apple didn't just rush something to market in order to do what others were doing. Could Apple have infringed on Immersions work? Sure, that's possible. If they did, they should pay. If they didn't, Immersion will just be wasting their time and money in court. Either way, this will likely be tied up in courts for years, regardless of the initial outcome... just as Samsung has.

 

[kdarling]

This is Immersion's second lawsuit against Apple and AT&T. The first lawsuit they filed in February was the one that addressed the iPhone 6. They don't seem to backing off that one, despite the fact that there is no merit for their assertion, and are just taking the opportunity to add more models.

Ah, I see. Okay, I believe that the iPhone 6 is claimed to infringe because of the custom vibrations that a user can set up for various types of notifications.

Even if Verizon has a license with Immersion, I'm not quite sure why individual wireless carriers would need to license Immersion's patents to sell products that also use them.

Yeah you're right. It's not really about licenses (unless a carrier has one, in which case they're covered), but about aiding the ultimate infringement, which is an indirect infringement codified in patent law over a half century ago.

I.e. If AT&T only sold the infringing devices, they'd be okay. However, if a device seller helps promote infringement (by providing instructional manuals, or using the feature in ads)... especially after being made aware of the possible infringement... then that's indirect infringement. Thus Immersion wrote in their lawsuit:

"Defendant AT&T similarly provides directions, instruction manuals, guides, and/or other materials that encourage and facilitate infringing use by others."
... (online manual urls snipped)...
"The Defendants have sold and are selling these products with the knowledge and intent that customers who buy the products will use the products for their infringing use and therefore that customers have been and are directly infringing ... "

If AT&T had modified their online manuals after being told of the possible infringement, they'd likely have been left out of the lawsuit. But apparently they did not, and thus they're included.

So why is AT&T only being sued for patent infringement with respect to the iPhone then? Since AT&T is not a licensee, shouldn't Immersion be bringing all of the Android phones they sell that use their patents also?

Of course, Immersion has no requirement to sue every possible infringer at once.

That said, I don't know of any major Android phone maker who doesn't already have an Immersion license. E.g. Huawei, HTC, Samsung, heck even fairly little Meizu has a license.

Hope this helped a bit. Regards.

 

[apolloa]

Apple loyalty? Where did you get that from anything I've said? I specifically stated that "if" Apple is guilty, they should pay. On the other hand, you seem to have a hard on hoping for Apple to get sued. Do you honestly think Samsung didn't copy Apple? Did you see what Samsung phones looked like before and after Apple? Did you see the court evidence where Samsung leadership dissected the iPhone and instructed their team to essentially copy what Apple did? Seriously, you can't look at the Samsung / Apple case and conclude that Samsung did not copy and infringe on patents.

Hard On? Really? How old are you?
Samsung? Really? You need to understand perhaps why the American Supreme Court has agreed to listen to the case, a hint is that the patent involved was void by the US patent office or is being so. So no in the eye's of the law it's entirely possible Samsung did not copy Apple on the apparent bogus patent they have.

Regarding immersion, I honestly haven't done a deep dive into their patent claims. However, I do know this. Immersion didn't invent haptic technology. It has existed long before Immersion. In fact, Immersion is but a small footnote in the history and evolution of haptic technology. For that matter, Apple has also pioneered quite a bit here. They amassed quite a few patents in this area before they brought a single product to market. Likewise, it is clear to me that Apple didn't just rush something to market in order to do what others were doing. Could Apple have infringed on Immersions work? Sure, that's possible. If they did, they should pay. If they didn't, Immersion will just be wasting their time and money in court. Either way, this will likely be tied up in courts for years, regardless of the initial outcome... just as Samsung has.

Again with the apologising for Apple, Apple did this, Apple did that, you come across as almost claiming they invented what Immersion holds patents for that they themselves invented, and then try to discredit their case by claiming they are a 'small footnote in haptic technology', a footnote maybe but they invented technology that everyone uses and they are paid licenses by those company's, and if they don't every one they have taken to court has lost or settled out of court, which to me makes an incredibly strong case for Immersion.

 

[Brad9893]

Ah, I see. Okay, I believe that the iPhone 6 is claimed to infringe because of the custom vibrations that a user can set up for various types of notifications.



Yeah you're right. It's not really about licenses (unless a carrier has one, in which case they're covered), but about aiding the ultimate infringement, which is an indirect infringement codified in patent law over a half century ago.

I.e. If AT&T only sold the infringing devices, they'd be okay. However, if a device seller helps promote infringement (by providing instructional manuals, or using the feature in ads)... especially after being made aware of the possible infringement... then that's indirect infringement. Thus Immersion wrote in their lawsuit:

"Defendant AT&T similarly provides directions, instruction manuals, guides, and/or other materials that encourage and facilitate infringing use by others."
... (online manual urls snipped)...
"The Defendants have sold and are selling these products with the knowledge and intent that customers who buy the products will use the products for their infringing use and therefore that customers have been and are directly infringing ... "

If AT&T had modified their online manuals after being told of the possible infringement, they'd likely have been left out of the lawsuit. But apparently they did not, and thus they're included.



Of course, Immersion has no requirement to sue every possible infringer at once.

That said, I don't know of any major Android phone maker who doesn't already have an Immersion license. E.g. Huawei, HTC, Samsung, heck even fairly little Meizu has a license.

Hope this helped a bit. Regards.

Yes, it does help! Thank you for clarifying.

 

[Sedulous]

Shady? How exactly are they shady?

I don't think there should be a valid patent for "vibrates when touched". That is why I say it is shady.

 

[69Mustang]

I don't think there should be a valid patent for "vibrates when touched". That is why I say it is shady.

But that's not even close to what the patent is about. Wouldn't it be a little more prudent to actually find out a few details about the actual patent? It's pretty obvious there validity to the patent since all the big boys (minus Apple) are licensing the patent. If you want shady, look up Rockstar Consortium. That was shady. Immersion is far from that.

 

[petsounds]

Since the company is still alive, we can assume they've got customers today...

They certainly are not patent trolls... their technology is being actively used.

Well, they have customers in that they have people licensing their patents. But if you go to their products page, it's pretty much just some fluff "development kits" for Android and game consoles that give you some software to do haptic feedback. I don't see any mention of selling hardware haptic tech on their site.

 

[jonnysods]

If its patented, they deserve what they deserve. If Apple had a protected patent we would be all for them protecting themselves.

 

[Sedulous]

But that's not even close to what the patent is about. Wouldn't it be a little more prudent to actually find out a few details about the actual patent? It's pretty obvious there validity to the patent since all the big boys (minus Apple) are licensing the patent. If you want shady, look up Rockstar Consortium. That was shady. Immersion is far from that.

Umm, it seems to me, "vibrates when touched" is what this is about. Sure, dress it up as "haptic feedback" but it is about something obvious and unoriginal. It never should have been granted a patent.

 

[kdarling]

Umm, it seems to me, "vibrates when touched" is what this is about. Sure, dress it up as "haptic feedback" but it is about something obvious and unoriginal. It never should have been granted a patent.

Not disagreeing if that's all it says, but which Immersion patent are you talking about?

 

[69Mustang]

Umm, it seems to me, "vibrates when touched" is what this is about. Sure, dress it up as "haptic feedback" but it is about something obvious and unoriginal. It never should have been granted a patent.

So what you're saying is you haven't even taken the time to find any actual information. Just gonna "shoot from the hip", so to speak. To each his own I guess.

 

[Sedulous]

So what you're saying is you haven't even taken the time to find any actual information. Just gonna "shoot from the hip", so to speak. To each his own I guess.

Just stating my opinion. If you would like to state what makes this patent special, go for it.

 

[NorEaster]

Crappy patents win in court all the time. They file the lawsuits in very specific small towns with juries favorable to the patent holders. Those towns are literally lobbied/donated to/bribed by companies involved in patent disputes.

So let me get this straight.... just because "crappy patens win in court all the time", it's not conceivable to you that Immersion actually did invent haptic technologies and has a valid legal position to defend their IP? If these were "crappy patents", don't you think the appeals process in the Sony case would have exposed how supposedly "weak" Immersion's claim is? Sony actually lost appeals twice, including once in the US District Court for northern California - and the case was heard in Oakland, CA btw... which I guess could be considered a small podunk town, huh?

I think you and I have very different points and are talking past each other. My point is, licensing is not evidence in itself that a company isn't a patent troll. My point was never "Immersion is a patent troll".

Then why did you include a paragraph about This American Life's show on patent trolls? One can argue that your inclusion of this paragraph immediately after your attack on Immersion implies a claim that Immersion is a patent troll. If you didn't mean to imply it, then you should never have mentioned it since it'd be irrelevant to the argument.

... Apple apologists always crack me up.
[doublepost=1462861757][/doublepost]

Just stating my opinion. If you would like to state what makes this patent special, go for it.

...But what is your opinion based on? Which patent are you specifically referring to that stakes a claim to "vibrates when touched"?

 

[AsherN]

Well, they have customers in that they have people licensing their patents. But if you go to their products page, it's pretty much just some fluff "development kits" for Android and game consoles that give you some software to do haptic feedback. I don't see any mention of selling hardware haptic tech on their site.

Their products are the dev kits. You don't need a physical product to have a valid patent and not be a patent troll. A true patent troll holds parents for which there is nothing being sold or worked on. Immersion has products that they Are making money from based on those patents.