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pipetogrep

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Jan 27, 2021
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Hi all,

This is a post in favor of why I feel NetBSD is worth consideration for those that may not have tried it yet on their PowerPC hardware.

While many of us are content sticking with OS X, others of us enjoy using alternate OSes on our aged hardware. Reasons for this may vary, but in my case I enjoy being able to use newer and modern software in order to extend the usefulness of my old devices in ways that an old OS cannot. I am writing this from that perspective.

NetBSD has some advantages over Linux, OpenBSD, and FreeBSD on 32bit PPC hardware. First and foremost is compatibility. NetBSD runs on (almost) everything including very old hardware. This is an advantage because most Linux and Unix flavors have dropped or are dropping support for 32bit PPC. Meanwhile, NetBSD continues to run on everything from modern ARM and AMD64 devices all the way down to a Sega Dreamcast and 68k Macs!

The second advantage is ease of use. While the installation isn't the easiest compared to other OSes, once you are up and going, it is surprising how much just works vs Linux on the same hardware. From the perspective of my iBook G4 video drivers, audio, CPU frequency scaling, and laptop shortcut keys like brightness and volume work properly with little to no configuration. With Linux on the same device, without a struggle you have no video, CPU frequency scaling can only be had with an old legacy userspace daemon that you have to manually install, and the brightness keys work inconsistently and most of the time work backwards! Sadly, I have to use a WiFi USB dongle as Broadcom support is lacking, but I consider this a net win.

Third is software availability. OpenBSD and FreeBSD have some packages available as binary packages and the rest you have to compile from source. NetBSD's binary selection, even on 32bit PPC, is extensive. I'm writing this on the iBook running NetBSD under Firefox 52 because they keep that version available as a binary! This fact has allowed me to use this machine as a modern Python dev machine which I'm building a game with. I ended up on NetBSD because that was the only BSD I could find that allows me to easily run an up-to-date version of it.

Fourth is performance. This is where I was really impressed. Somehow, I have far better graphical performance under NetBSD on my iBook G4 with an ATI Mobility Radeon 9200 than on do with Debian Linux on an ATI Radeon 9800 on my dual 1.8 GHz PowerMac G4. I discovered this when printing the FPS of my game in pygame. On both instances, since there is no working 3D acceleration outside of OS X and MorphOS, I disabled GLX entirely to allow pygame to run. On the iBook I'm hitting a full 60 FPS in pygame! On Linux on the faster PowerMac, I could only get 23.

Fifth is pkgsrc. You thought MacPorts was cool, wait till you try pkgsrc out! If you don't want to deal with the slower cadence of the binary packages, you can build all of your packages from source with ease. It also allows you to update your compile options for all packages from a single config file. It even supports cross compiling to other architectures! While pkgsrc is NetBSD native, it supports other OSes as well including other BSDs, Linux, and modern MacOS. As of a few weeks ago, pkcsrc even runs on OS X Tiger now! Unix software from pkgsrc for Mac OS X 10.4 (PowerPC Tiger)

Sixth is its simplicity. Unlike modern Linux, one can conceivably learn most of how the OS works. Its init system is ran by simple scripts, and the documentation for most of my experience has been clear, thorough, and concise. While my background lies heavily in Linux, I have never been lost under NetBSD after a brief learning period.

Finally, I have to mention the community around it. Their IRC channel has been friendly, welcoming, and helpful with everything I've thrown at them. Since the community is small, you get the actual devs of the OS there.

If you made it this far, hopefully you'll be convinced to at least consider trying it as an alternate OS for your PowerPC Mac. It has afforded me a degree of freedom and flexibility with far fewer problems that any other alternate OS I've tried so far. Maybe it can do the same for you!
 
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barracuda156

macrumors 68020
Sep 3, 2021
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Some of the statements above create an impression not entirely accurate, IMO.

Third is software availability. OpenBSD and FreeBSD have some packages available as binary packages and the rest you have to compile from source. NetBSD's binary selection, even on 32bit PPC, is extensive.

OpenBSD has great support for ppc32 in terms of pre-built packages. More or less everything which can be built on OpenBSD (from their ports) exists pre-built. While I do not use OpenBSD much, I tried to install Qt5 (which pulls in a lot of dependencies), and nothing had to be compiled, everything installed pre-built.

Having said that, NetBSD has a better browser than either OpenBSD or MacOS, at least at the moment.

Fifth is pkgsrc. You thought MacPorts was cool, wait till you try pkgsrc out! If you don't want to l with the slower cadence of the binary packages, you can build all of your packages from source with ease. It also allows you to update your compile options for all packages from a single config file. It even supports cross compiling to other architectures! While pkgsrc is NetBSD native, it supports other OSes as well including other BSDs, Linux, and modern MacOS. As of a few weeks ago, pkcsrc even runs on OS X Tiger now! Unix software from pkgsrc for Mac OS X 10.4 (PowerPC Tiger)

pkgsrc works great on Linux (way better than MacPorts does), but sorry, it won’t be nearly as good as MacPorts on MacOS. The reason being that it won’t have fixes needed for ports to build and run on PowerPC. There is no problem with pkgsrc build system itself, but you will need to port a lot of patches and tweaks. Or otherwise you get that many packages as you can see they got on Tiger ;)
 
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barracuda156

macrumors 68020
Sep 3, 2021
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This is a post in favor of why I feel NetBSD is worth consideration for those that may not have tried it yet on their PowerPC hardware.

By the way, what GUI do you use? Does KDE5 or KDE6 work, at least in principle (i.e. I am not asking whether it is usable on G4, since it may be slow, but can you get KDE GUI)?
 

pipetogrep

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Jan 27, 2021
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OpenBSD has great support for ppc32 in terms of pre-built packages.
Hmm, you’re right. I made a blanket statement. Thank you for pointing that out. In this case, NetBSD’s software availability was better for my individual use case. Pygame is very out of date on OpenBSD and installing it manually did not work through pip. I wanted a pygame dev environment. I also wanted something comparable to TenFourFox. NetBSD was a good fit (for me) here.

it won’t be nearly as good as MacPorts on MacOS
I wasn't trying to imply that it would be. My intention was to point out that it exists and that it might neat to tinker with. We are all tinkerers here after all. :)

By the way, what GUI do you use? Does KDE5 or KDE6 work, at least in principle (i.e. I am not asking whether it is usable on G4, since it may be slow, but can you get KDE GUI)?
i3. I wanted something fast. I've tried XFCE and it works really well considering the limitations. I did a "pkgin search kde" and only see binary package for KDE4. Same for looking through pkgsrc source tree, which means newer KDE wouldn't be available on any architecture with NetBSD. It looks like OpenBSD is in better shape https://cdn.openbsd.org/pub/OpenBSD/7.5/packages/powerpc/ as I am seeing KDE5 packages for PowerPC.

Edit: Making a correction on OpenBSD's KDE availability.
 
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galgot

macrumors 6502
May 28, 2015
487
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detailed install of NetBDS 9.3 on a Pismo here, if of interest.
What I've found is the boot cmd may differ from machine to machine, so it takes a bit of tries. And that shipped video drivers on NetBSD 10 didn't work for me on a Pismo nor on a Titanium 500, after checking seems would have to compile a custom kernel for these. Which I didn't learned yet...
Other than that, it's quite nice.
 
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barracuda156

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Sep 3, 2021
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Do you mean with the installer using the FireWire drive as the install source or to a FireWire as the bootable installed system?

Both is of interest, but above I mean the installed placed on a FW drive. (I tried and it failed. Given broken DVD drives in most PowerBooks, this is desirable to be able to use FW.)
 

Doq

macrumors 6502a
Dec 8, 2019
513
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The Lab DX
I have been meaning to take a deep dive into not just NetBSD but the whole BSD "Holy Trinity" in a long-form for a while, to the point where I have NetBSD installed on Littorio (ameowli.dev) ready to go (mostly; filesystem corruption is rampant on this system for seemingly no reason).

I haven't been able to do this yet because FreeBSD is planned to go 64-bit only, so I'm to spin it up on Implacable (ameowli.dev), but because lolnvidia, I have to either source an ATI card or lose X.
 

barracuda156

macrumors 68020
Sep 3, 2021
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I have been meaning to take a deep dive into not just NetBSD but the whole BSD "Holy Trinity" in a long-form for a while, to the point where I have NetBSD installed on Littorio (ameowli.dev) ready to go (mostly; filesystem corruption is rampant on this system for seemingly no reason).

I haven't been able to do this yet because FreeBSD is planned to go 64-bit only, so I'm to spin it up on Implacable (ameowli.dev), but because lolnvidia, I have to either source an ATI card or lose X.

Wait, FreeBSD has no graphics support on Nvidia cards? That’s beyond ridiculous, if true.

Re 64-bit, is that official? Disappointing, if they drop 32-bit, but if they fix the current breakage of ppc64 version, you may be able to run that on G5.
 

Doq

macrumors 6502a
Dec 8, 2019
513
774
The Lab DX
Wait, FreeBSD has no graphics support on Nvidia cards? That’s beyond ridiculous, if true.

Re 64-bit, is that official? Disappointing, if they drop 32-bit, but if they fix the current breakage of ppc64 version, you may be able to run that on G5.
FreeBSD is interesting in that NVIDIA ships an official binary driver for amd64 and arm64, and while there is an open alternative, it too is also too new for graphics cards contemporary to a G5, requiring using an ancient X11 if doing so.

Information on the deprecation and removal of 32-bit architectures is outlined in the release notes of 14.0R near the bottom.

 
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barracuda156

macrumors 68020
Sep 3, 2021
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FreeBSD is interesting in that NVIDIA ships an official binary driver for amd64 and arm64, and while there is an open alternative, it too is also too new for graphics cards contemporary to a G5, requiring using an ancient X11 if doing so.

Information on the deprecation and removal of 32-bit architectures is outlined in the release notes of 14.0R near the bottom.


FWIW, I have filed an issue at FreeBSD bugzilla: https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=280932
 

barracuda156

macrumors 68020
Sep 3, 2021
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Trying to boot from a USB drive, it gets stuck on this:

IMG_9606.jpeg


(From FW it was just going into KP.)

What should I try? )
 

barracuda156

macrumors 68020
Sep 3, 2021
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A third attempt got me here, but anyway, it fails to boot into NetBSD (into MacOS it boots fine).
 

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saxfun

macrumors member
Mar 14, 2016
79
14
Germany
I installed NetBSD on my PowerBook 5,6 with some hassles, but at the end it is cleaner than DEBIAN 12 on another PowerBook 5,6. I did use an USB-stick as well. dd'ed the macppc 10-iso on the stick, booted off OF with some cmds (which I had to search after cause some manuals had some typos . . .) and installed with at least 10 tries in the end NetBSD 10. @pipetogrep: I was NOT able to use your tutorial, later on I used one or two tuts like:




Caution, if I remember correctly, there has been a WRONG line of code in the rabbit farm article:

Code:
boot usb1/disk:,\ofwboot.xcf hd:3,/netbsd. hd:3

Must be:

Code:
boot usb1/disk:,\ofwboot.xcf hd:3,/netbsd


Beware of typos!

At the end I did a ftp install. many times I got an error while installing "no space left on device . . .".

1. suspend is not working on NetBSD
2. over SSH autocompletion of BASH is working, on XFCE4 it is not working atm. any hints?
3. WIFI is not working. Airport Card seems to be detected as bwi0, but ifconfig, dhcpcd and wpa_supplicant are configured, I get "timeouts", wpa_cli scans no network. Firmware downloaded and moved in the right folder.

Anyone running NetBSD and Airport Extrem Wifi and can help me with this issues?


Pros of NetBSD:

1. Fast boot
2. seems that 2D/3D is working
3. GIMP is available as binary, Debian 12 did not have it.
4. Firefox is available as binary, called "Nightly" !!!
5. ArcticFox is available as binary!

After installation you have to compile "pgkin" via pkgsrc!!!!

Maybe we should start a dedicated thread concerning NetBSD on macppc, helping us to leave all the small quirks with it on our beloved PPCs behind . . .
 
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