Increasing the odds of winning panel lottery (ghosting replacement)

[sat24]

I compared it to my 17" 2009 MBP, 15" 2014 MBP and 13" 2016 MBP and still don't see a notable difference in terms of this issue.

Upvoting since u r comparing with the 15" 2014 MBP which is my reference standard as well. I do see it, but I am going to give myself a week (or three) before returning this unit; there are tweaks I can do to reduce this effect. Let's see how it goes. I am also comparing it very closely with my 2014.

For e.g. when I three-finger-swipe-left-right to switch from one maximized app to another, I saw the entire text on the screen becomes fuzzy (completely unreadable) as the entire screen scrolls left/right and then once the screen comes to a stop the text goes from fuzzy to clear. Now I thought that this was only an issue with the 16" at first. Then now I am sitting here with both the 16" and the 2014 on my lap side by side, I see the same effect on both machines, actually. The fuzzy->clear happens a little bit faster on my 2014 compared to the 16", but the fuzzy->clear effect is very visible in both places. This was a surprise discovery for me.

I will post more of my findings on the original ghosting thread.
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The fact that you see the issue on literally every portable you tried says a lot I think. People are treating this like it is some kind of unique problem for the 16”, but that doesn’t seem to be the case. Could it be that the people who are complaining about ghosting are just used to very high refresh gaming displays or something?

Point in case: I game on a 120Hz Ultrawide monitor. It's awesome but not high res (1440p for 34") so I dont really do much else than gaming on it. But I swear I am not using it for comparison here

I think the problem is the 2014 MBP (pre-2016) panels are pretty responsive. I have never used anything newer (macbookpro-wise). So perhaps the difference between 2014->16" is quite perceptible compared to 2016+ -> 16".

And like you said - "portable" - that's key. I did see iMac displays (non-portables) look really good. So maybe this is some sort of a "power-saving" trick that the Ive-Apple did to their portables. That theory has some legs because it was with the 2016+ generation of portables where Ive-Apple went crazy with form over function (super thin laptops with all sorts of problems); pre-2016 was thicc laptops with good screen, battery and thermals. Maybe they will fix the refresh issue in 2020 refresh (pun intended), but given not many people seem to mind, perhaps they wont. Unless the miniLED screens are inherently better wrt pixel response rates. We'll have to see.

 

[emraha06]

Yeah interesting, fwiw I have a 2019-11-11 date too, and no ghosting as far as I can tell.

could you please prove it with ufo ghost test. It is so simple that you will only take a photo with your phone while ufos are moving and share with us...and also you will definetly notice that your display has ghosting in dark mode open preferences and move the window.

many people here suffer from ghosting and backlight bleeding. At this point people who claim his device is perfect have to prove it accordingto my opinion. I would do that...

 

[robvas]

According to Coconut battery mine was manufactured on 2019-10-21 and it has the same ghosting. Just thought I'd add a data point.

https://imgur.com/nHVzCD9

I already commented a lot in the other thread so I won't repeat what I said there about it.

Since when does the manufacturing date of the battery have anything to do with the screen?

 

[Quu]

Since when does the manufacturing date of the battery have anything to do with the screen?

Because if you look at the screenshot it shows you the date that the computer itself was manufactured at the top and then the date the battery was manufactured at the midpoint. Two separate dates. We're only using the system manufacture date.

 

[fs454]

Point in case: I game on a 120Hz Ultrawide monitor. It's awesome but not high res (1440p for 34") so I dont really do much else than gaming on it. But I swear I am not using it for comparison here

I swear, everyone making a big deal about ghosting mentions at some point that they regularly use a 120hz / 144hz / 240hz monitor. I go back and forth with people on gaming forums and subreddits all the time that suddenly claim that as of the last 4-5 years, 60fps is "unplayable" in games. 60hz on a razor thin high dpi LCD display has always been like this, it's you that changed.

 

[bennyprofane]

could you please prove it with ufo ghost test. It is so simple that you will only take a photo with your phone while ufos are moving and share with us...and also you will definetly notice that your display has ghosting in dark mode open preferences and move the window.

many people here suffer from ghosting and backlight bleeding. At this point people who claim his device is perfect have to prove it accordingto my opinion. I would do that...

I have posted a comparison here which shows that it's pretty much the same as the late 2013 15":

16" MacBook Pro ghosting / smearing...

I just made some new comparison shots in order to have more similar shots: late 2013 15": 16" SJA3: 16" SJA4: Side by side comparison, in the same order as above: imgur

forums.macrumors.com

I would like to see an example where it's considerably worse.

 

[Quu]

I swear, everyone making a big deal about ghosting mentions at some point that they regularly use a 120hz / 144hz / 240hz monitor. I go back and forth with people on gaming forums and subreddits all the time that suddenly claim that as of the last 4-5 years, 60fps is "unplayable" in games. 60hz on a razor thin high dpi LCD display has always been like this, it's you that changed.

I still have my 2015 15" and I can compare it side by side with my 16" and the two look different when it comes to pixel response. Enough for me to notice it within seconds of setting up my machine which was before I even came to this forum and looked at any threads about the issue.

All displays have some latency but it's a spectrum and I would put the 16" at the worst end, the 2015 15" I had before in the middle and a high end gaming display at the best end of that spectrum.

I kept my system cause I mostly use it on an external monitor and just like the portability to move it between home and office but if I had to live with this display every time I used it I would probably go crazy.

As a test I tried using my 2015 15" for a few hours, I was not bothered by the ghosting. Did the same with my 16", annoyed by it, again. Every-time I'm scrolling on reddit, this forum, my source code for my programs etc its annoying for sure.

And again I'm not saying older displays didn't have latency, just that for me the latency on this display has gone over the threshold of becoming too noticeable and too annoying. 45ms grey to grey is ridiculous, that's worse than consumer 4K HDR10 televisions for goodness sake. In my opinion the display should be able to do 30ms grey to grey by now for all this money.
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I have posted a comparison here which shows that it's pretty much the same as the late 2013 15":

16" MacBook Pro ghosting / smearing...

I just made some new comparison shots in order to have more similar shots: late 2013 15": 16" SJA3: 16" SJA4: Side by side comparison, in the same order as above: imgur

forums.macrumors.com

I would like to see an example where it's considerably worse.

It's hard to see on these as they're all taken at different distances and angles but I would say the 16" is displaying 4 copies of the alien as it's moving while the 15" is only showing 3. That alone would be a 25% increase in perceived ghosting. Just my opinion.

 

[Camarillo Brillo]

I don’t see any ghosting on my 16”... maybe I don’t know what to look for. But I don’t care. Seems like hunting for a problem. I have other bigger concerns like heat, fan noise, performance when external monitors are connected... I’d be more afraid of having one of those bigger issues after returning for ghosting, if your current machine is running cool and quiet and performing well.

I’m not saying ghosting is no big deal, but if it’s happening on my computer, then I’m saying it’s no big deal, because I haven’t seen it.

 

[emraha06]

I don’t see any ghosting on my 16”... maybe I don’t know what to look for. But I don’t care. Seems like hunting for a problem. I have other bigger concerns like heat, fan noise, performance when external monitors are connected... I’d be more afraid of having one of those bigger issues after returning for ghosting, if your current machine is running cool and quiet and performing well.

I’m not saying ghosting is no big deal, but if it’s happening on my computer, then I’m saying it’s no big deal, because I haven’t seen it.

here is mine which taken by iphone in ufo ghosting test. Could you please take yours and share with us to compare

 

[Camarillo Brillo]

Y

 

[Quu]

Who cares though? I don’t use my computer to snap photos of little cartoon UFOs flying by on the screen, so why should that be a legitimate test of anything? This is a serious question.

Because you're claiming you have a system where you don't see ghosting. We would like to determine if that's just because you're not sensitive to it or if you truly have a screen that doesn't have this "issue".

If it's the case your display doesn't have the problem some people here may return their machines to get new ones to try and get unaffected displays. I mean this isn't hard to grasp right? - You have one, you say it's great. That's lovely for you, doesn't really help those of us that have bad ones though does it, real data would help though.

 

[Camarillo Brillo]

Y

 

[profcutter]

Fool's errand.

You really think mini LED arrives and BOOM in year 1 all problems solved? This place will be absolutely ON FIRE with complaining about any and all issues when that drops. People claimed to holy hell that OLED would solve it all and how'd that work out on iPhones? Don't kid yourself.

Every screen tech, every generation, will have problems and you'll be subject to panel lottery no matter what.

huh, I didn’t realize people were having such issues with OLED, but to be fair I never checked. I love my OLED screen on my iPhone XS Max, it’s such an improvement over whatever came before, and I was watching movies on it while I was moving. If it didn’t have the ghosting issue on Mac OS, I would love one on a laptop.

 

[Donnation]

huh, I didn’t realize people were having such issues with OLED, but to be fair I never checked. I love my OLED screen on my iPhone XS Max, it’s such an improvement over whatever came before, and I was watching movies on it while I was moving. If it didn’t have the ghosting issue on Mac OS, I would love one on a laptop.

Yes, people complained like crazy and are still complaining about the OLED screens on the iPhones. I've never ever seen a difference in any of them but you have people returning iPhones 5 and 6 times and finally claiming they have a great one only to show that it looks exactly like the one they had the first time.

There is a level of OCD in there that sometimes makes it seem that every single product Apple releases is a disaster that has nothing but problems. I know this "ghosting" issue is a problem for some people but I woul d bet that most people would never even know this was a thing until they came here and started looking for it.

Also, and this shouldn't be a surprise to anyone, but there is no panel lottery. They are all the same and there is no magic panel that is going to be different than any of the other ones.

 

[profcutter]

Well, in the past there certainly were hit or miss batches of displays. Back in 2004, there was a whole batch of displays with nasty ugly white circles, looked like mumps on the display. My college had ordered a whole batch from the same day, and I would keep returning only to have the same problem. Finally Apple acknowledged that there was a bad batch and sent a new one which was fine. So there is a precedent, actually more than one for this. I’m quite happy with my phone screen, doesn’t mean other folks got the same quality as mine.

 

[Donnation]

Well, in the past there certainly were hit or miss batches of displays. Back in 2004, there was a whole batch of displays with nasty ugly white circles, looked like mumps on the display. My college had ordered a whole batch from the same day, and I would keep returning only to have the same problem. Finally Apple acknowledged that there was a bad batch and sent a new one which was fine. So there is a precedent, actually more than one for this. I’m quite happy with my phone screen, doesn’t mean other folks got the same quality as mine.

There is a difference in a defective screen and thinking that there is some magic batch of panels that will make this issue not a thing. All of Apple's panels from the iMac down to the MacBook have the exact same type of "ghosting" issue. I understand that this is more of an issue for some people but its not something unique to the 16" MacBook Pro and has been going on forever with their panels.

I have a new work issued Dell laptop that I use very infrequently and the ghosting on that thing is so much worse than anything I ever experience on the MacBook Pro. But with that being said, I understand its an issue for some people but the only answer for them is to just not purchase this laptop and look elsewhere.

 

[MacBookGamer]

If I do the test, and it looks the same as yours, will you admit that your OCD is getting the better of you?

And you didn’t really answer my question. What real life use would this affect? I don’t do video or graphics work so I honestly don’t know, I’m not asking to be an ass, it is a serious question. Because I just don’t think anything important to anybody really involves taking photos of your computer screen with an iPhone. So I want to know what the real problem is then, other than the way your photos of the little cartoon UFOs turn out.

Try gaming or watching a movie with ghosting. Everything is blurred and looks horrible.

 

[robvas]

Normal operation...

 

[Donnation]

Try gaming or watching a movie with ghosting. Everything is blurred and looks horrible.

I couldn't disagree more.

 

[MacBookGamer]

I couldn't disagree more.

That's like saying you disagree that vision correction makes things better.

 

[Sanpete]

There is a difference in a defective screen and thinking that there is some magic batch of panels that will make this issue not a thing. All of Apple's panels from the iMac down to the MacBook have the exact same type of "ghosting" issue. I understand that this is more of an issue for some people but its not something unique to the 16" MacBook Pro and has been going on forever with their panels.

Again, the idea that some 16" screens may be better than others is perfectly reasonable, as has been pointed out to you before. Again, look at the measurements for the three 2016 15" screens Notebook Check tested and you'll see there's a significant difference. Whether it's true this year remains to be seen, doesn't look promising so far. But the only way to know is to collect the data.

I couldn't disagree more.

Based on what? Notebook Check and numerous other reviewers regularly find the MBP screens unsuitable for gaming because of this. If you only mean it doesn't matter to you, so what? You've already made that clear. This is for people for whom it does matter.

 

[Donnation]

That's like saying you disagree that vision correction makes things better.

Good one...

And please, you couldn't be more wrong that everything looks blurry and horrible watching a movie on the 16" MacBook Pro. Maybe it does to you but that's a big leap stating it as fact when I would be the vast majority of people on this site would highly disagree with you.

I won't debate it with you so whatever clever response you have: Great job.
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Again, the idea that some 16" screens may be better than others is perfectly reasonable, as has been pointed out to you before. Again, look at the measurements for the three 2016 15" screens Notebook Check tested and you'll see there's a significant difference. Whether it's true this year remains to be seen, doesn't look promising so far. But the only way to know is to collect the data.


Based on what? Notebook Check and numerous other reviewers regularly find the MBP screens unsuitable for gaming because of this. If you only mean it doesn't matter to you, so what? You've already made that clear. This is for people for whom it does matter.

LOLOLOL its never been pointed out to me. Its been proven completely false so please go dig that old thread up and look for yourself.

I don't game so I don't care and this isn't a gaming computer so I don't know why anyone would buy one for gaming. And I was talking about movies and watching them on the 16" screen is great.

 

[Camarillo Brillo]

Y

 

[Sanpete]

LOLOLOL its never been pointed out to me. Its been proven completely false so please go dig that old thread up and look for yourself.

I don't game so I don't care and this isn't a gaming computer so I don't know why anyone would buy one for gaming. And I was talking about movies and watching them on the 16" screen is great.

Huh, looks like reasoning and facts aren't going to help here.

I take it you're new to these forums and so are unaware that many, many MBP owners play games on their MBPs, and many of them would like less ghosting for that reason. If you look at thread titles and read a few threads maybe you'll learn something, if you're able. It matters for movies too, of course, though generally not as much.

 

[fs454]

Try gaming or watching a movie with ghosting. Everything is blurred and looks horrible.

I regularly place in top 3 in Halo Reach and can handily stay at near the top of the scoreboard in BF4 on my MBP. No issues at all, it's the same as playing on my P2715Q back at home, and both games locked at 60fps too, native res.

Movies are literally meant to have motion blur. It's by design, ~24fps and 1/48 shutter, unless you're one of those people that leaves the smooth motion crap on their TV which is absolutely against the intention of the filmmaker.