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I did do an update ( and it took 4 days from the UPS guy picking my phone up until I got it back. The support from HTC UK was fantastic but (and this is a huge but) it had nothing on my iPhone 3g exchange I did with the local Apple store.

I literally took it in after booking an appointment with Apple, the genius looked at it, went out back and swapped it there and then. Never before has a company resolved an issue in such a non challenging way as my exchange went with Apple.

I'll go read your followup. I suggest a link on the original post to the followup. If it's there, I missed it. Sorry.

Agreed on Apple exchange policy. My first iPhone (2G - first day) had its speaker die on it after about 15 months. I had Applecare - just walked into the Apple Store, 15 minutes later walked out with a "new" one. Not sure that that long after they'd been out I actually got a factory fresh one, it surely was a refurb(?).

That said, Apple has the advantage of a retail presence set up for that kind of thing. HTC, with the Nexus One doesn't. Advantage Apple, obviously.

I suspect Apple has such a generous and easy repair policy for a few reasons:

1) they're a premium priced product marketed to people who expect that sort of warranty service.

2) Apple products, in my personal experience, tend to be of poor build quality, despite assertions to the contrary by most fans. Perhaps I am just unlucky, though. I detail my >60% failure rate with Apple products in this post in another thread. No one would buy another Apple product again if they weren't easily fixed/replaced with that kind of failure rate.

But we're kind of drifting off topic at this point. :(
 
You really think that's how business works--that any time someone like a carrier is "stocking" a product for sale, it's already bought and paid for with no chargebacks, etc. for future events? That if it's a complete POS, that the carrier is stuck with it? No way. The very best a manufacturer is going to do in those situations is shared pain.

It's worked like that in Europe for years.

Carrier X buys a certain amount of phones from manufacturer Y, then gives it to customer Z who is tied to a 18 month/2 year commitiment which covers more than the total cost of the 'free' phone and usage.
 
what kind of phone plan do you have now? I am interested in trying to get this to work under my BB data plan and wanted to know how you plan on getting it setup.

I'm on AT&T with the standard data plan for my iPhone 3G. I should just be able to swap SIMs and go, no account changes necessary. Not sure about the BB data plan though. I think the BB data plan is the same as the regular data plan, so worst case scenario is you'll have to call up customer service and have them switch you.
 
That's ridiculous. Show me where I can find more about your diet, I am willing to pay top dollar to Google for that information :D

Any time you search for something using Google, your searches and IP are recorded. For example, Google knows I have interests in Apple based systems and technology as I visit and search for those topics on a regular basis. Given that information, marketers are more than willing to pay top dollar in order to call my home or sell my information to corporations who then mail me flyers or magazines. Where do you think the incentive lies for telephone marketers and whom to target? Those marketers get their data from companies such as Google. It's a system, it works, whether you like it or not.
 
It's worked like that in Europe for years.

Carrier X buys a certain amount of phones from manufacturer Y, then gives it to customer Z who is tied to a 18 month/2 year commitiment which covers more than the total cost of the 'free' phone and usage.

If by "buys" you mean pays a sum certain, with no adjustments and/or chargebacks for contingencies and unsold product, then no, that's not exactly how it works.
 
How has Apple used the sale of its customers to gain a profit?

#1. They are taking cash payments from Google for being default broswer.So everything you accuse Google of, Apple is also taking a piece of the action.

#2. You honestly think that Apple "iTunes Genius" data only flows to customers. That Apple hasn't sold that aggregate marketing data back to the music industry and/or leveraged it internally. Same issue why reportedly the magazine folks are a bit twisted that they loose customer contact info if sell through iBook store. Apple holds millions of card numbers and has all the data on what those cards have purchased over a going diversity of products.

#3. Apple tried to buy AdMob and bought another. The trend now is to stuff ads into applications. Apple isn't going to make the money back from buying that ad company unless start selling info. That is how that business works. The issue is just how aggregated and anonymized the information is, not whether it is sold.
 
How is Google controlling your Internet experience or your owning your information? Sure they make money off the Internet/advertising but I don't think they sell your private data nor do they dictate what sites you can visit or what software you can run on your computer or Phone.

Apple has, under the guise of totally illogical explanations made up by the biased Media, controlled everything for their profit. Plain and simple. It's like the dictatorship present in some countries - except no dictator looks as shiny/clever and media has no reason to be biased towards them :D IOW the whole 'control in the name of user experience' thing is B.S - its all a profit for control and control for profit - me and mine, all mine thing. Very narrow minded and evil.

A) I have no carrier choice B) I have no choice of what software I can and I cannot run. C) Developers do not have a choice - they have to do what Apple wants them to do and then hope their app will be approved - then they have to pay 30% of the sales, and then live in fear - the app can be yanked any time D) I need to have Mac hardware to develop for iPhone. etc. I don't have to repeat all that.

Sure if you like to be told what is good for you and feel comfortable inside the garden - good for you. Many people can't stand being walled. No matter how many 'good sounding' reasons you give them.

Of course you do, go with Verizon and another smartphone. Use Windows OS. Or jailbreak your device, or run Windows on your Intel Mac. You have plenty of choices. The control you're misrepresenting is Apple's long established business model that having a closed system of hardware and software results in a better end user experience, not a "dictatorship" . Unlike Windows OS'es, which may be run on any Windows capable device(s), Microsoft has a daunting task of making certain that all the possible devices in almost unlimited combinations will run their software without error(s). Apple has proven that selling the software WITH their hardware establishes a system that works fairly well with regards to Windows OS based systems. I like Windows, the software is TOP notch, especially given the task of writing it for soooo many various hardware combinations. If Microsoft sold their software with Microsoft designated hardware, there would be a better end user experience for Windows OS users. That has been proven time and time again from Apple's business model. If you don't like it, you have plenty of choices to use other devices and software.

You still haven't shown that 1) Google doesn't make money from selling information to marketers 2) Apple is an established "dictator" for the sake of being a "dictator" when there is established reasonable doubt that a "dictatorship" for the sake of being a "dictatorship" is Apple's business model.
 
Of course you do, go with Verizon and another smartphone. Use Windows OS. Or jailbreak your device, or run Windows on your Intel Mac. You have plenty of choices. The control you're misrepresenting is Apple's long established business model that having a closed system of hardware and software results in a better end user experience, not a "dictatorship" . Unlike Windows OS'es, which may be run on any Windows capable device(s), Microsoft has a daunting task of making certain that all the possible devices in almost unlimited combinations will run their software without error(s). Apple has proven that selling the software WITH their hardware establishes a system that works fairly well with regards to Windows OS based systems. I like Windows, the software is TOP notch, especially given the task of writing it for soooo many various hardware combinations. If Microsoft sold their software with Microsoft designated hardware, there would be a better end user experience for Windows OS users. That has been proven time and time again from Apple's business model. If you don't like it, you have plenty of choices to use other devices and software.

You still haven't shown that 1) Google doesn't make money from selling information to marketers 2) Apple is an established "dictator" for the sake of being a "dictator" when there is established reasonable doubt that a "dictatorship" for the sake of being a "dictatorship" is Apple's business model.

Linux works better across a multitude of systems than windows.
 
Now I look on the other side of the fence where its filled with BSDs, Linuxs and other OpenSource software. Then I look back over on my side of the fince where theres a 'dictator' company and a company that undermines competition. I see usable software.

Then I ask you

So control doesnt have anything to do with GUI implementation then?

No it doesn't. Also you assume that everything !Apple = unusable. Sorry but Windows is as usable to me and the 90% of the world population if not more than Apple. Also Nexus One UI is as usable as iPhone and it comes with very little control. You can put what you want on the phone.

Saying the same thing over and over does not make it a fact - show me a logical reason why I need Apple's control in order to have usable UI - let the apps flow freely and I will decide what apps are usable what are not and what apps mess with "my" user experience. Thanks but no thanks for thinking on my behalf, I can do that on my own.

But wait. Are you implying that Macs are as controlled as the iPhone and Mac UI has suffered because of the lesser control? Sure you can have control over how the hardware looks and acts and how software integrates with it - but if you start telling me "Hey Mac GUI experience has gone down the hill - we need you to only run the apps from our store and you cannot develop without paying us" - am I supposed to accept that under the hope that it will make "experience" better? If so why is Apple not doing it?
 
#1. They are taking cash payments from Google for being default broswer.So everything you accuse Google of, Apple is also taking a piece of the action.

#2. You honestly think that Apple "iTunes Genius" data only flows to customers. That Apple hasn't sold that aggregate marketing data back to the music industry and/or leveraged it internally. Same issue why reportedly the magazine folks are a bit twisted that they loose customer contact info if sell through iBook store. Apple holds millions of card numbers and has all the data on what those cards have purchased over a going diversity of products.

#3. Apple tried to buy AdMob and bought another. The trend now is to stuff ads into applications. Apple isn't going to make the money back from buying that ad company unless start selling info. That is how that business works. The issue is just how aggregated and anonymized the information is, not whether it is sold.

All your points are legitimate. My point was in the other extreme, painting Google as an "angel" and Apple as the next "Stalin/dictator". Both companies are guilty of this practice, but Apple hasn't made their business successful through the sole purpose of selling user information as Google has done. The iTunes "Genius" is an established (and only a few months old) system to sell more music to individuals, BUT you have the option to opt out of that immediately. I have chosen not to not because I want my privacy but because I am very picky with regards to music and often times Apple has recommended music on the front page of the iTunes store for years that I haven't had interest in buying. As for Admob, I'm ignorant with regards to what Apple's intentions are/were with Admob. Adverts in applications, advert's online, who knows what Apple intended. Only they do :).
 
AT&T has done it all along and is doing BOGO right now. Just never for iPhones.

Show me a smart phone going bogo on AT&T. AT&T has never done bogo on blackberry phone. Have not seen it on nokia smart phones. The only bogo I have seen from AT&T have been on dumb phone.
 
It's not paranoia. I've met a few guys who used to work for Google, and they basically admitted Google got where it is today from the selling of personal information (which is perfectly legal, assuming the user is properly informed, which is debatable). That's pretty much fact. I don't care what they know about me, that wasn't the point, the point was the discrepancy of the individuals claim that Apple did A while Google doesn't do A. In fact, it would be more precise to admit that Google is making their stake in the system through selling out their users. As for opting out, where is the option to opt out of Google using your searches to sell your data to corporate America and its advertisers?

How has Apple used the sale of its customers to gain a profit? With a lot of money in the bank and selling more products than Google, I'd gather that Apple has made it with the sale of their hardware and software products and iTunes, especially with the hugely successful sales of their mobile devices such as the iPod and iPhone. Also, didn't Apple just celebrate the 10,000,000,000th iTunes download? With a roughly 30% tax on every iTunes purchase/download, that's a lot of profit.

I'm not going to bother a point-by-point response, too much work. ;)

I did say "my paranoia" not anyone else's, and you know the old saying "just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not out to get you." LOL

With Apple's closed books, we don't know what data they have about us, and what they do with it. You can't argue that point, can you? I don't know.

As for the 30% iTunes tax, there's surely profit in there, but I imagine that bandwidth, server costs, payment accounting, and credit card surcharges suck up a good deal of that.

The reality is, that while Google collects data about my surfing habits, if I use their search engine, and my other interests (if I use their email), they don't know anything about what I do off the internet, so they hardly know everything about my life. On the other hand, my grocery store knows everything I eat, my bank knows everyone i do business with, my credit card knows everyone I buy things from, Blue Cross knows more about my health than I do, etc, etc. You have no privacy in the modern world, if you live the typical life the "westerner". It's a fact.

As for Google privacy opt out:

Well, you can always start with the Google opt-out privacy cookie: http://www.google.com/privacy_ads.html

Then there's the opt-out plug-in: http://www.google.com/ads/preferences/plugin/

And of course the Google dashboard: http://googlesystem.blogspot.com/2009/11/google-dashboard.html

For the more techie types, you can edit your hosts file to block all things Google. (And man, what a much nicer place the net looks like with the ads turned off! Try the winhelp2002 hosts file.)

And don't forget the ULTIMATE GOOGLE PRIVACY OPT OUT - don't use Google search and services. Use Yahoo or Bing or whatever. I think it's silly to assume they're not doing the same things, though.
 
No it doesn't. Also you assume that everything !Apple = unusable. Sorry but Windows is as usable to me and the 90% of the world population if not more than Apple. Also Nexus One UI is as usable as iPhone and it comes with very little control. You can put what you want on the phone.

Saying the same thing over and over does not make it a fact - show me a logical reason why I need Apple's control in order to have usable UI - let the apps flow freely and I will decide what apps are usable what are not and what apps mess with "my" user experience. Thanks but no thanks for thinking on my behalf, I can do that on my own.

But wait. Are you implying that Macs are as controlled as the iPhone and Mac UI has suffered because of the lesser control? Sure you can have control over how the hardware looks and acts and how software integrates with it - but if you start telling me "Hey Mac GUI experience has gone down the hill - we need you to only run the apps from our store and you cannot develop without paying us" - am I supposed to accept that under the hope that it will make "experience" better? If so why is Apple not doing it?

Actually, with the Advent of the iPhone Mac OSX usability has been going down hill.

Tiger was near perfect in every area.
 
No it doesn't. Also you assume that everything !Apple = unusable. Sorry but Windows is as usable to me and the 90% of the world population if not more than Apple.

Sorry, but using market share with regards to Windows OS and OS X systems is erroneous based on the very reasons of Apple selling the hardware and software. Most of the market share for Windows based systems is the business market, as the majority of Windows OS systems are utilized in the corporate industry as it's more cost effective to simply buy a software license than purchase new OS X based systems. It's not a statistically sound argument to state that Windows is better because it has 90%+ of the market share. Windows OS has that market share not due to popularity but due to the system that Microsoft profit from: the sale of it's software on any PC.
 
Of course you do, go with Verizon and another smartphone. Use Windows OS. Or jailbreak your device, or run Windows on your Intel Mac. You have plenty of choices.

Yep I have choices and I am making them (just bought N1)- some one asked me why I made those choices and I explained. Then those choices were questioned and now I am being asked to make choices again :D

You still haven't shown that 1) Google doesn't make money from selling information to marketers 2) Apple is an established "dictator" for the sake of being a "dictator" when there is established reasonable doubt that a "dictatorship" for the sake of being a "dictatorship" is Apple's business model.

So you think Google should be a charity? And how is Google making money off advertising a) bad and b) relevant to discussion at hand - control over your choices? I could tell you to not use Google - there is Bing, Yahoo, etc. and the discussion would still be offtopic. (Oh and BTW, your IP address is not "YOU" for Google - they would have to subpoena your ISP to get that info last I checked. And IP address is not personal information. If you are worried about cookies etc. get a good browser with privacy controls - Firefox/Adblock/NoScript/Permit Cookies).
 
The reality is, that while Google collects data about my surfing habits, if I use their search engine, and my other interests (if I use their email), they don't know anything about what I do off the internet, so they hardly know everything about my life. On the other hand, my grocery store knows everything I eat, my bank knows everyone i do business with, my credit card knows everyone I buy things from, Blue Cross knows more about my health than I do, etc, etc. You have no privacy in the modern world, if you live the typical life the "westerner". It's a fact.

I'd wager that your life would be fairly well represented through your surfing habits. You'd be surprised how much can be gathered regarding individuals over the course of a users online habits. Very surprised. If it wasn't the case, then marketers wouldn't be paying big bucks to purchase that information. ;)

As for Google privacy opt out:

Well, you can always start with the Google opt-out privacy cookie: http://www.google.com/privacy_ads.html

Then there's the opt-out plug-in: http://www.google.com/ads/preferences/plugin/

And of course the Google dashboard: http://googlesystem.blogspot.com/2009/11/google-dashboard.html

For the more techie types, you can edit your hosts file to block all things Google. (And man, what a much nicer place the net looks like with the ads turned off! Try the winhelp2002 hosts file.)

And don't forget the ULTIMATE GOOGLE PRIVACY OPT OUT - don't use Google search and services. Use Yahoo or Bing or whatever. I think it's silly to assume they're not doing the same things, though.

You and I are exceptions to the rule as the average user isn't aware of "cookies" and Google's practices. The general internet/computer user is blissfully unaware that their information is being gathered and sold. Why isn't that option in big, bold letters on Google's main page?

http://www.google.com

Interesting that the "Privacy" link is the SMALLEST link of the Google page. Heck, I didn't even know it was there until you mentioned it. Interesting eh ;).
 
...or run Windows on your Intel Mac.

You may need drivers from Apple to handle proprietary devices on the
Apples.

My advice is to never buy Apple hardware solely to run Windows - you
are at Cupertino's mercy. (How many months after the Windows 7
release before Boot Camp supported Windows 7?...)
 
I'm on AT&T with the standard data plan for my iPhone 3G. I should just be able to swap SIMs and go, no account changes necessary. Not sure about the BB data plan though. I think the BB data plan is the same as the regular data plan, so worst case scenario is you'll have to call up customer service and have them switch you.

I thought the BB plan was $15 per month more. It would be easy for any of us to actually go to AT&T to check that out and post back. Any takers...? :confused:

Any time you search for something using Google, your searches and IP are recorded. For example, Google knows I have interests in Apple based systems and technology as I visit and search for those topics on a regular basis. Given that information, marketers are more than willing to pay top dollar in order to call my home or sell my information to corporations who then mail me flyers or magazines. Where do you think the incentive lies for telephone marketers and whom to target? Those marketers get their data from companies such as Google. It's a system, it works, whether you like it or not.

I have never, really, never gotten a phone call from a telemarketer that was related to anything I've ever searched for on Google. Actually, ever since the no-call list law went into effect, I've gotten maybe three telemarketer calls total - not counting the BS stuff from the cable company and phone company (who are allowed to call you with marketing calls since you're an established customer).

Also, I don't recall any direct mail adverts based on Google interests that weren't far more likely generated by the magazines I used to subscribe to (MacWorld surely sells your name to marketers, don't you think?).

Actually, with the USPS on the verge of bankruptcy because of the lack of advertising mail the last few years (along with the lack of other mail), I wouldn't mind getting more junk mail sent to me if it kept the USPS in business and their rates down! :cool:

Selling your information to marketing folks is big business for everyone you do business with. It's common practice out there in the real world. At least with Google, you know they're doing it, and you can easily control it. All the rest, good luck stopping them.
 
Yep I have choices and I am making them (just bought N1)- some one asked me why I made those choices and I explained. Then those choices were questioned and now I am being asked to make choices again :D



So you think Google should be a charity? And how is Google making money off advertising a) bad and b) relevant to discussion at hand - control over your choices? I could tell you to not use Google - there is Bing, Yahoo, etc. and the discussion would still be offtopic. (Oh and BTW, your IP address is not "YOU" for Google - they would have to subpoena your ISP to get that info last I checked. And IP address is not personal information. If you are worried about cookies etc. get a good browser with privacy controls - Firefox/Adblock/NoScript/Permit Cookies).

Well, the topic I brought out wasn't addressed to you, it was addressed to someone who painted Apple=BAD, Google=GOOD, that was a quote from their page. You chimed in and made it about you. I addressed the issue, and here we are, round and round and round we go.

Look, no one's 100% right, or 100% wrong. I simply addressed a question to someone who demonstrated a bit of misinformation, which tends to happen A LOT on MacRumors.

Truthfully, I've debated this topic - and others in the similar vein - (Windows BAD Apple GOOD or Windows MESSIAH Apple DEVIL) for years, and my carpal tunnel is flaring up, it's ooooold ;).
 
You may need drivers from Apple to handle proprietary devices on the
Apples.

My advice is to never buy Apple hardware solely to run Windows - you
are at Cupertino's mercy. (How many months after the Windows 7
release before Boot Camp supported Windows 7?...)

I don't. I haven't ever used BootCamp's drivers, I let Windows search for the drivers, or visited the device manufacturers main page to obtain them for me.

Sound: RealTek
Video: ATI
Bluetooth: Generic
AHCI: Intel
Eject: Right click, "Eject"
CD/DVD drivers: Generic

No need for Bootcamp. I may use Bootcamp to partition a drive, but I run Windows on a separate hard drive in my Mac Pro, so not needed. In the end, it's seamless. The best running Windows system has been on my Mac Pro, haven't has a BSoD ever :).
 
Sorry, but using market share with regards to Windows OS and OS X systems is erroneous based on the very reasons of Apple selling the hardware and software. Most of the market share for Windows based systems is the business market, as the majority of Windows OS systems are utilized in the corporate industry as it's more cost effective to simply buy a software license than purchase new OS X based systems. It's not a statistically sound argument to state that Windows is better because it has 90%+ of the market share. Windows OS has that market share not due to popularity but due to the system that Microsoft profit from: the sale of it's software on any PC.

I did not say Windows was better or worse - that's far too subjective area. I said 90+% of the populace uses it for business and home purposes. If it wasn't productive to use Windows people would not have used it. People have a choice to buy Macs - not more than few % are making that choice - instead they just buy what works for them.
 
I did not say Windows was better or worse - that's far too subjective area. I said 90+% of the populace uses it for business and home purposes. If it wasn't productive to use Windows people would not have used it. People have a choice to buy Macs - not more than few % are making that choice - instead they just buy what works for them.

Yes, and you were insinuating that 90%+ equates to preference, and don't say you weren't as it was the crux of your argument :rolleyes:
 
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